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Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:11:00 - [151]
 

Edited by: Miilla on 22/06/2011 22:14:53
Originally by: Cailais
CCP is a business and it exists to make a profit.

With that in mind I don't see why we should be surprised that CCP have an internal discussion document in place - in fact you could argue that the presence of said document is a good thing: internally CCP are judging what is, and what is not, acceptable in terms of generating revenue from its customers (both current and future).

Quite a lot of the document makes logical sense.

We might find it distasteful too be poked and prodded by a market analysis but all business do this.

CCP Soundwaves deductions don't accord with my own, but then he seems a different style of consumer to me. On one point however I would agree - CCP are going to be burned at the stake here.

C.



CCP are saying the "subscription model" has failed, all the F2P games say the same. So they all dump the subscription model and go MT model, currently CCP are doing both models concurrently.


I found two key points that are both a worry and maybe a good thing http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1534552&page=4#101 1st is a bad thing, 2nd could be good

Obviously Confidential
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:12:00 - [152]
 

Dear CCP,

Please note that the original mindset that made Gordon Gekko so awesome back in the good old yuppie 80's lead to many disastrous consequences and that this kind of thinking is now a bit outdated to say the least, not only by the zealous Keynesians but also by new and intelligent neo liberals that are much more concerned with sustainability and introducing long term incentives into capitalism so as to prevent short term individualistic disastrous behavior ("greed is good but in the long term" being the new neo liberal meme).

Mr. Stone himself, whose father was a stock broker and intended Gekko as a showcase of all that he despised about the financial system, was surprised when instead of people understanding how that kind of behavior is crappy and leads to misery, apparently instead decided to use Gekko as some some sort of dystopian role model. These days, this is not the kind of stuff the current world rewards or associates with.

For a case study of why "greed is good" is a bad way of thinking, I would suggest investigating the recent financial troubles in Iceland, a country located in the North of the Atlantic.

So apparently your efforts at savage capitalism are now outdated since responsible/sustainable capitalism seems to be the way to go, and this kind of stuff, which I hope didn't involve a high investment when measured in terms of monthly subscriptions, is sadly inconsequential. Not to mention using money from people that love your game to finance ways to rip them off.

You guys should focus on building our wonderful sci fi universe and the love you put into your creation, that extends to the player community. You are good at this. And yes, you can do parallel stuff and introduce micro transactions - I also heard the CEO speaking about what he saw at E3 - but can you please do it with some amount of sanity and common sense, not to mention respect for your own selves or at the very least for what you created?

You are not very good at this kind of stuff, it shows, and if you have a good thing going that you do well, why change and start doing crazy stupid things that have like 1% of possibility of generating extra income and 99% possibility of destroying what you have buit, on top of the respect of your players and what really matters in terms of revenue generation?

Also, even for savage capitalists you are doing poorly. This looks like starting class material from an MBA business case ages ago, there were better and smarter ways of doing this being taught at business schools even at the time.

If this is true, it's a sad day. Not for us. For you.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:12:00 - [153]
 

The issue of paying a subscription fee *and* being "required" to buy MT items to remain competitive did come up as being bad (i.e. double dipping into the player's wallet.) The document does not directly address that issue with any kind of solution.

However, because Eve lets use ISK to buy micro-transaction items, I got the fuzzy impression that the ISK-Plex-Aurum cycle would be the work-around/justification to the sub fee + "mandatory" MT purchases double dipping problem.


Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:12:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Khysanth Onyx
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: Khysanth Onyx
Edited by: Khysanth Onyx on 22/06/2011 22:06:04
That string of quotes started to read like The Final Solution to the Jewish Question, and whoa the irony.


**** you. Seriously.


OMG can you ever avoid crucifying yourself you bloody wailing idiot.


Oh no they might change my toys this is just like the holocaust!

Khysanth Onyx
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:14:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: Khysanth Onyx
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: Khysanth Onyx
Edited by: Khysanth Onyx on 22/06/2011 22:06:04
That string of quotes started to read like The Final Solution to the Jewish Question, and whoa the irony.


**** you. Seriously.


OMG can you ever avoid crucifying yourself you bloody wailing idiot.


Oh no they might change my toys this is just like the holocaust!



lol yeah the inevitable outcome is the death of a million people, this is what I'm talking about

Norian Lonark
Gallente
Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:14:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Isn't it fun? It's the same path that led my former employer's corporation to default and close.

The economist (akin to John Turbefield in the PDF) kept warning about the dangerous path and about the risks.

The marketeer (in this case it's worse as Kristoffer Touborg is Lead Game Designer => more powerful) laughed in his face.

Result: when marketeers trump economists things go downhill fast.



Exactly right the only sense in that document comes from John.

Disturbed Pilot
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:15:00 - [157]
 

As much as i love eve im 99% sure the day they start selling weapons for real money (plex) I will cancel both accounts. It is scary to see that they are already heading down this path with the ability to buy clothing with plex.

RensPriceChecker2
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:15:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: Miilla


CCP are saying the "subscription model" has failed




its no wonder the subscription model fails if you develop three games with the subscriptions from just one. not the payment model is the issue.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:16:00 - [159]
 

OH GOOD HEAVENS IF ONLY SOMEBODY COULD HAVE PREDICTED THIS

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:16:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Miilla
Originally by: Cailais
CCP is a business and it exists to make a profit.

With that in mind I don't see why we should be surprised that CCP have an internal discussion document in place - in fact you could argue that the presence of said document is a good thing: internally CCP are judging what is, and what is not, acceptable in terms of generating revenue from its customers (both current and future).

Quite a lot of the document makes logical sense.

We might find it distasteful too be poked and prodded by a market analysis but all business do this.

CCP Soundwaves deductions don't accord with my own, but then he seems a different style of consumer to me. On one point however I would agree - CCP are going to be burned at the stake here.

C.



CCP are saying the "subscription model" has failed, all the F2P games say the same. So they all dump the subscription model and go MT model, currently CCP are doing both models concurrently.






No, theyre saying that the MT model is popular in other games which suggests some (but not all) consumers prefer that mechanism: discreet spending on specific elements - customized if you will.

Offering both models however might work - each suited to different consumers.

C.

Tutskii
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:17:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Iamien
This is legitimate. If it weren't it would be closed by now as CCP would not allow disinformation to be spread and go viral.


This.

Look at how fast they have closed troll threads with claims of what CCP said that were false.

Notice how all the threads with this are still open.

Also, Seleene confirmed it was real and she saw it at the summit.

Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:17:00 - [162]
 

Edited by: Miilla on 22/06/2011 22:19:06
Originally by: RensPriceChecker2
Originally by: Miilla


CCP are saying the "subscription model" has failed




its no wonder the subscription model fails if you develop three games with the subscriptions from just one. not the payment model is the issue.


They want to GROW GROW GROW and big a BIG PLAYER in the MMO space, but that comes at a cost, usually loyal customers.

Change can be too great for some, and too expensive for others.

But read my prior "2nd" point from my other post in yellow. However the 1st point I extracted was a concern, gameplay changing, that would alienate a lot of customers and one of their largest fears.

I think they want to "complete the circle" of the money life cycle in the MMO.


Marcus Vorenius
Caldari
Task Force 42
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:18:00 - [163]
 

make up your own mind - does this look like something CCP Marketing could have produced? Hint: search for the now closed thread that contains a transcript of what CCP Zinfandel was letting out in help channel last night.

Drifnir
Mnemonic Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:18:00 - [164]
 

For fanden CCP...

Patience is running out with this BS...you can only make me /facepalm so many times before i get sore.
Also, i like how this ever so subtly ignores what the CSM evidently told you at the last summit...looks like you've made the decision already, and now we get fed this ill-considered refuse?

For shame...

Raid'En
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:18:00 - [165]
 

Edited by: Raid''En on 22/06/2011 22:47:51
Edited by: Raid''En on 22/06/2011 22:21:23
Originally by: Iamien
This is legitimate. If it weren't it would be closed by now as CCP would not allow disinformation to be spread and go viral.

you forgot the time it is on the EU ; there's only GMs left at this time, and GMs have neither the knowledge, nor the power to decide to lock or not a thread this dangerous for the company.
the actions taken here have great importance, they need to wait for big heads to give them orders on what to do.

i don't really know if this is a fake or not however... i read it, and it's pretty well written... which let think it is real.
however there's contradictions ;

the devil economist saying they can buy a plex for more fitting, would like saying this cost an entire plex.
but at another place they talk about putting monocle cheap enough... that is the opposite to what was told, and is also the opposite to what have happened yerterday... that's strange.
but given all the argumentation about microtransaction, which is pretty well written, and staying honest, i really think it's real. a fake wouldn't had written things like that.

however there's an error on dust model ; at E3 it was said there were NO fee for the game itself. on this document it is said there is one. and this document is from before the E3... but not that much before.
meaning either it was a change made on last minute... either it's a FAKE.

i'm not that chocked by what is written however.
the paid weapongs on dust is what have shocked me the most, but anyway... i don't have and don't plan to have a PS3 so...
not that shocked about what was told for eve, most is okay, and the rest is only ideas.
hope is not lost.

honestly i was WAY MORE shocked when i logged yerterday and saw the monocle price than when reading this PDF.
after all this PDF is saying that 12000 aurum for a monocle is totally ridiculous, and that's the guy who is the more for MT that say it... so there's really something strange here.

edit :

Originally by: Tutskii

Also, Seleene confirmed it was real and she saw it at the summit.

well in that case :/

Medidranda Livoga
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:19:00 - [166]
 

I`d be ok with microtransaction model if no subscription was required for basic game access. You could sell "premium" account with double training speed or something too... Twisted Evil

Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:20:00 - [167]
 

Edited by: Miilla on 22/06/2011 22:20:57
Originally by: Medidranda Livoga
I`d be ok with microtransaction model if no subscription was required for basic game access. You could sell "premium" account with double training speed or something too... Twisted Evil


No thanks.

I would rather subscribe, I can budget for a subscription, with MT's you cannot budget this as easily as it is "impulse" driven or driven by the "desire to keep up or win".

I know what I spend with a subscription. MT is too big a risk financially as a customer.



Eliniale
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:21:00 - [168]
 

Edited by: Eliniale on 22/06/2011 22:25:01
the rage, the feast, the glory, this is the digital human at it's best(or worst depending on your POV), i've got to say i'm LOVING this.

The funniest thing, however, is that you could have seen this coming miles away.

(granted the NEX is overpriced as hell, but no one is forcing anyone to spend 25 or more on a vest)
As long as they don't give any edge to people pumping RL money in this game, i don't really care (although PLEX, sorta just do that, whoopsy, must've missed that).

EDIT: corrected grammar or spelling mistakes

Cyber Duck
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:21:00 - [169]
 

I really can't bring myself to login after reading that...

Really considering un-subscribing both my accounts, and i'm sure other people are as well after this...

what have you done to our game ccp? OUR GAME! WE PAY YOUR ****ING WAGES!!!

Quote:
You can develop a friendship by "Spending" your time, or you can pay to get the same benefits that friendship would otherwise allow


This is probably the most telling statement of the whole document... paying for something instead of working for it?

OUT OF GAME STATUS SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO AFFECT IN GAME MECHANICS! You're lucky you got away with the plex system for so long...

Eve is no longer art... it's a profit making exerciseCrying or Very sad

RensPriceChecker2
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:21:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: Medidranda Livoga
I`d be ok with microtransaction model if no subscription was required for basic game access. You could sell "premium" account with double training speed or something too... Twisted Evil


stackable training speed multiplicators.

BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:22:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Bacchhus
CCP I love your game. I love the promise that it would one day be the ultimate science fiction simulator. I have always defended the game and have tried my best to get others involved in it.

This broke my heart a little.



You said it perfect. I really hope this is either fake, or one of those things that Bob in marketing put out to get a feel but nobody is taking seriously.

I don't like the new market crap to begin with, but I realize I'm far from the only player in this game, and some might like it. Selling faction standings though? That isn't vanity, that's a direct shortcut in game play. I'm still reading the document, but most of this sounds really dissapointing. I'm not saying I'll quit, but if this goes into play I'll have some really hard choices about where I want to spend my money.

Isil Rahsen
Gallente
Ferrum Superum
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:22:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: Raid'En
Originally by: Iamien
This is legitimate. If it weren't it would be closed by now as CCP would not allow disinformation to be spread and go viral.

you forgot the time it is on the EU ; there's only GMs left at this time, and GMs have neither the knowledge, nor the power to decide to lock or not a thread this dangerous for the company.
the actions taken here have great importance, they need to wait for big heads to give them orders on what to do.
Yea except for the fact the CCP Soundwave has tweeted he is monitoring the forums in response to people inquiring about this very topic.

oldmanst4r
Minmatar
oldmanst4r's Corporation
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:24:00 - [173]
 

Wow, just wow.

Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:24:00 - [174]
 

Edited by: Miilla on 22/06/2011 22:25:09
Originally by: Isil Rahsen
Originally by: Raid'En
Originally by: Iamien
This is legitimate. If it weren't it would be closed by now as CCP would not allow disinformation to be spread and go viral.

you forgot the time it is on the EU ; there's only GMs left at this time, and GMs have neither the knowledge, nor the power to decide to lock or not a thread this dangerous for the company.
the actions taken here have great importance, they need to wait for big heads to give them orders on what to do.
Yea except for the fact the CCP Soundwave has tweeted he is monitoring the forums in response to people inquiring about this very topic.


CCP are fishing reactions, plain and simple.

All this was discussed at the summit and not confidential.

We all know this is their goal, we can smell it in the wind like rotten shark fin.




Ophelia Ursus
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:25:00 - [175]
 

Holy crap, they have gone utterly insane. If consumerism builds loyalty and emotional ties, what do you think are the effects of bait-and-switch tactics, naked manipulation, and outright lies?

Someone needs to conduct a purge within CCP.

Mahnmut Orphu
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:25:00 - [176]
 

Edited by: Mahnmut Orphu on 22/06/2011 22:26:14
Edited by: Mahnmut Orphu on 22/06/2011 22:25:06
"Right now you can store 50 personal fittings..., thats more than enough for the average EVE player..., why not be able to add more storage for a small amout of money?"

Why not make an epic mission arc that offers these sorts of perks as rewards? I feel that as a customer, my "emotional attachment" would be impacted in a much more positive way if earning the extended storage involved more than opening up my wallet. Rather, I'd much prefer to blow up some spaceships and save a small moon colony or something, and receive the perk as a reward. Even if it took me MANY MANY hours as a casual player. THAT is a story worth telling friends. THAT is a positive emotional experience. THAT is good publicity. Not: "Oh yeah you can totally have as much fitting storage as me dude, only 3.99 in the game store!"

The argument that casual players would prefer convenience over a large time investment is worth consideration. However, the developers should consider this issues to be one of convenience vs content. Should the game be convenient to play, or designed in such a way that players always want to devote a LITTLE MORE time to it? A playerbase supported by convenience would seem to be ephemeral while a playerbase supported by content would seem to be much more permanent. One should assume that a game developing company would prefer not only the security that comes with customers interested in a long-term game experience, but also the added bonus of a product that is enhanced by a deeper and more profound emotional experience resulting from more content and yes, more time investment required from the players in order to experience the game more completely.

The time investment of the players is more crucial to the EVE universe and CCP than microtransactions will ever be. The low-hanging fruit of microtransactions may seem like a positive addition, but the added convenience comes at the cost of immersion; the cost of a game experience with depth; the cost of cheapening the EVE Universe which player and developer alike have worked so hard to build. THIS IS BAD M'KAY? Don't turn Chess into tic-tac-toe (an extreme analogy) because "casual" gamers call for more convenient and less time consuming ways to advance in the game. Screw them. If they don't enjoy EVE enough to earn the vast array of experiences it offers, they aren't worth catering to.

In EVE, CCP offers a unique and rich universe, lightyears beyond any other MMO that this player has come across. I believe it is for this reason that capsuleers around the world have chosen to give their money and time to CCP rather than other game developers. I also believe it is for this reason that CCP needs to move convenience to the very bottom of their list of priorities.

Before I get off my soapbox I'd like to add that I am a new EVE player, and I think this game is F***kin' awesome. It is the negative point of view that so many players are taking that disturbs me. I do not know the game's history as well as most players, but all I can say is that I severely hope that the reaction this forum has had to Incarna is an overreaction, and not an indication that CCP is jumping on the bandwagon with certain other game developers that produce sensationalist BS. Also...Captain's Quarters are sweet but leave much more to be desired obviously. Noble Exchange wouldn't suck if there were missions that offered AURUM as a reward instead of ISK. That way I could earn the shnazzy vanity items through some aspect of the game that involves content. (Admittedly, I could grind until I saved enough ISK to buy a PLEX to split. But yeah...those prices.)

TL;DR - Reading is for suckers and microtransactions are awesome!





Axemaster
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:26:00 - [177]
 

This must not be allowed to happen.

Also, CCP needs to suck it up and fire the eggheads who came up with this garbage.

GARBAGE.

Barakkus
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:27:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: BeanBagKing
I'm not saying I'll quit, but if this goes into play I'll have some really hard choices about where I want to spend my money.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:27:00 - [179]
 


for heavens sake can somebody at ccp tell us this is a load of trolling nonsense please.

Medidranda Livoga
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:28:00 - [180]
 

Originally by: Miilla
Edited by: Miilla on 22/06/2011 22:20:57
Originally by: Medidranda Livoga
I`d be ok with microtransaction model if no subscription was required for basic game access. You could sell "premium" account with double training speed or something too... Twisted Evil


No thanks.

I would rather subscribe, I can budget for a subscription, with MT's you cannot budget this as easily as it is "impulse" driven or driven by the "desire to keep up or win".

I know what I spend with a subscription. MT is too big a risk financially as a customer.



That`s your own personal problem. I have no complaints if you want to give even more money to CCP that you already do. Cool High time that you learned how to budjet your life if you haven`t already.


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