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Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:48:00 - [1141]
 

Edited by: Miilla on 23/06/2011 11:49:34
Originally by: diaufop
Edited by: diaufop on 23/06/2011 11:46:58
Originally by: Nikki West
Originally by: General Windypops


What utter nonsense. You honestly didn't expect game developers to be looking at options like this? Every single MMO developer is having exactly the same conversations that CCP are. And some of them are changing already - look at what happened with LOTRO's F2P.



What did happen to LOTRO? They completely removed subscription fees and switched to a different model. They didn't add MTs on top of subscriptions because that would be insane - which is what €€P is doing.

Just to clear this up as a player of both DDO and LoTRO for some time.

DDO and LoTRO both use the same business model:

Option A) Pay your monthly/6-monthly/yearly subscription fee, get access to all game content, all race/classes, and so on, and get 500 Turbine Points to spend in the cash shop every month on vanity stuff/consumables/whatever.

Option B) Play for free - a few races/classes restricted, and have free access to approx 20% of the game's content. Buy the rest of the content (one-time fee), unlock races/clases, etc, with the cash shop.

Prices in said cash shop range from 50 Turbine Points for some little trinket or consumable to 2995 Turbine Points for a +2 to all stats tome (an EVE equivalent would be an upgrade that boosts your ship's EHP, speed, agility, and DPS by 5%), content packs are around the 450-1500 mark.

Swapping from a subscription-only game to the "hybrid model" as Turbine call it, DDO went from a dead game to one having more regular active players than EVE does by far (and almost none of them are bots). LoTRO went from a slowly dying game to having even more regular active users than DDO. Turbine made a ****ing fortune.

I somehow doubt that CCP will actually follow this path however, looks like they're going subscription only + MEGAtransactions. Which I highly doubt will work as well for them as Turbine's change did.



LOTR naturally has a bigger following than spaceships too. different genere of game, apples to oranges.

Also, are those 500 monthly points carried over or is it a use it or lose it affair like Pay as you go mobiles?


Reed Tiburon
Caldari
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:48:00 - [1142]
 

Originally by: ExcalibursTemplar
Originally by: Reed Tiburon
QFT. CCP has shown that they don't give a flying **** about us; they see customers as walking wallets. This document shows that they are concerned with getting maximum MONEY for minimum SERVICE. Why should I give my money to a company like that? Better I spend my subscription fee on hookers rather than monocles; at least they pretend to care about me.


PMSL

Mind if a quote you in my sig as thats funny as hell.

Go for it mate. The one good thing about this mess is that I've seen more funny **** created by the playerbase than ever before. You messed up a really good thing, CCP.

Constantinus Maximus
Paxian Expeditionary Force
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:50:00 - [1143]
 

Originally by: Nimbat
They locked the thread where we discussed the ban of helicity :(


I've been banned by PR recently too.

Republica Winder
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:52:00 - [1144]
 

Originally by: Nimbat
They locked the thread where we discussed the ban of helicity :(


They are probably going to ban everyone associated with EN24 too. Now the idiotic licensing scheme makes sense, it would give them some measure of control of sites like that, as in, "oh, you inform people about our plans to turn our players into cash registers, we'll pull your "license" and now you can't sell ads for ISK".

Revealing stuff like this to us is why sites should DO news.

Seriously, if this is the direction CCP is going in (and they've been trying to ram new forms of RMT down our throats for the last year, remember the floated "stat remap for PLEX" scheme?) the sooner we know the better.

An informed customer makes better decisions. This is like knowing about the impending NGE months in advance (instead of days which was what we got). We now know where CCP is going. RMT out our asses. Everything associated with Incarna will be RMT based. Dust will be RMT based. They plan to backfill the original EVE game with RMT. And items in the cash shop ARE NOT going to be cosmetic only.


Gwenywell Shumuku
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:54:00 - [1145]
 

Edited by: Gwenywell Shumuku on 23/06/2011 11:55:06
Edited by: Gwenywell Shumuku on 23/06/2011 11:54:36
Originally by: Verone
That's what I don't understand.

Why the hell do I want one, and what is the incentive to buy one regardless of price when it has absolutely NO impact on my game play at all?



See, thats where i'm disappointed, you are a nice guy and all, but man, try to focus on EVE as a whole and not just your little world.
This argument is like "what do i care if the world around me burns down, as long as my nice little house is fine".

If you can't see where CCP's vision is leading and why this is bad for EVE in the long run, i don't know what is? Do they have to ban your accounts for you to care? And sry if i single you out, you are just one of many with this attitude.

diaufop
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:57:00 - [1146]
 

Edited by: diaufop on 23/06/2011 12:01:34
Edited by: diaufop on 23/06/2011 11:59:55
Originally by: Miilla

LOTR naturally has a bigger following than spaceships too. different genere of game, apples to oranges.

Also, are those 500 monthly points carried over or is it a use it or lose it affair like Pay as you go mobiles?


They're carried over - my LoTRO account has about 3200 points on it atm, gets its 500 points on the same day every month nad not much left to spend them on.

For what it's worth though, Turbine handled their f2p changeover in LoTRO even worse than CCP did this cash shop+pdf leak fiasco.

At least CCP did admit they were adding a cash shop, Turbine's Devs and PR people were denying the rumours about an f2p conversion right up until the official announcement, despite the coding for the changes having started months previously. They went on a thread locking and forum purging rampage followed by the single largest amount of bull**** backpedalling I've ever witnessed from any MMO company.

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:57:00 - [1147]
 

Originally by: Gwenywell Shumuku
Edited by: Gwenywell Shumuku on 23/06/2011 11:55:06
Edited by: Gwenywell Shumuku on 23/06/2011 11:54:36
Originally by: Verone
That's what I don't understand.

Why the hell do I want one, and what is the incentive to buy one regardless of price when it has absolutely NO impact on my game play at all?



See, thats where i'm disappointed, you are a nice guy and all, but man, try to focus on EVE as a whole and not just your little world.
This argument is like "what do i care if the world around me burns down, as long as my nice little house is fine".

If you can't see where CCP's vision is leading and why this is bad for EVE in the long run, i don't know what is? Do they have to ban your accounts for you to care? And sry if i single you out, you are just one of many with this attitude.


When you've been playing Eve for as long as I have, you come to expect things. One of those things is that not every part of Eve will be tailored to your enjoyment or gameplay needs.

I look at the parts of Eve that I enjoy, and those that have an effect on what I enjoy. The rest is for other people to be concerned over.


Rex Liberium
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:01:00 - [1148]
 

Edited by: Rex Liberium on 23/06/2011 12:01:42
Originally by: Gwenywell Shumuku
Edited by: Gwenywell Shumuku on 23/06/2011 11:55:06
Edited by: Gwenywell Shumuku on 23/06/2011 11:54:36
Originally by: Verone
That's what I don't understand.

Why the hell do I want one, and what is the incentive to buy one regardless of price when it has absolutely NO impact on my game play at all?



See, thats where i'm disappointed, you are a nice guy and all, but man, try to focus on EVE as a whole and not just your little world.
This argument is like "what do i care if the world around me burns down, as long as my nice little house is fine".

If you can't see where CCP's vision is leading and why this is bad for EVE in the long run, i don't know what is? Do they have to ban your accounts for you to care? And sry if i single you out, you are just one of many with this attitude.


Indeed, and his little house isnt fine. Incarna and what is to follow, has turned every (subscription paying) eve-player into second rate customers. New content will come available but only if you pay more. Your subscription money will not be used to make eve better, just to run the servers and develop other games.

His name was John Turbefield!

Never forget!

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:03:00 - [1149]
 

Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
So in the last 8 hours, CCP just decided NOT to say, oh yeah that's fake?

Problem is, what would they say? The easiest thing would just be to deny it... except then they don't get to 'coincidentally' implement anything on that list any more. So, damage control, in that regard, would halt their money-grubbing plans.

And if it's real, we fry 'em regardless.

So, I'd say that leaves CCP up that proverbial body of water made of excriment without a means of propulsion.

Enuen Ravenseye
Malevolence.
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:03:00 - [1150]
 

Originally by: Houdian Black
Well it seems like there are quiet a few unhappy people at CCP who I could see leaking this. Linkage


Oh my, but that is hysterical. I especially liked:
"There is a blatant lack of vision and direction for the project I work on and the people leading it are allowed to remain in their position on a basis of friendship rather than competence."

Made me think: I guess we know where Brad is working now!

Republica Winder
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:04:00 - [1151]
 

I oppose all RMT in a full price subscription game. ALL of it. Even the PLEX system as it exists hasn't really set well with me, because it has had a very negative impact on the game. 2/3rds of 0.0 is now under the control of alliances that bot for the purposes of selling ISK and PLEX is the grease that makes that machine turn almost effortlessly.

I have laughed at the term "microtransactions" since they were first proposed. Why? Because I realized very early on that there would never be anything "micro" (as in small) about them, nor their ambitions towards your wallet.

So, some time back I coined a more realistic term: macrotranscam. Macro, meaning large. Scam, meaning a game that charges you $15/month AND has these things.

Does anything say macrotranscam more than baubles and pixelated clothing that costs more to buy in a VIDEO GAME than they do in real life?



Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:04:00 - [1152]
 

Originally by: Republica Winder


They are probably going to ban everyone associated with EN24 too. Now the idiotic licensing scheme makes sense, it would give them some measure of control of sites like that, as in, "oh, you inform people about our plans to turn our players into cash registers, we'll pull your "license" and now you can't sell ads for ISK".


Yeah helicity is probably permabanned, I'd imagine that EN24 will go too. Whomever provided the leaked copy will probably get fired/sued.

No tears for the EN news guys, this is what they always wanted with the boting articles.

Quote:
An informed customer makes better decisions. This is like knowing about the impending NGE months in advance (instead of days which was what we got). We now know where CCP is going. RMT out our asses. Everything associated with Incarna will be RMT based. Dust will be RMT based. They plan to backfill the original EVE game with RMT. And items in the cash shop ARE NOT going to be cosmetic only.


LOTRO reviving itself from the dead and Blizzard making an ungodly amount off their MT transactions, the writing was on the wall.

Its only going to get worse.

Hot Stufff
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:05:00 - [1153]
 

Well they are starting to quietly move and lock threads without leaving blue bars on them. Maybe we will get an answer soon.

sarah mcjimmy
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:06:00 - [1154]
 

After reading the Greed is Good PDF, it gave me a wonderful insight in to the way CCP view their 'lolcustomers'.

I'm letting all 3 accounts expire in August, I've had enough of this game and MMOs in general. Thanks CCP for putting things in to perspective.

gektor fox Ozuwara
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:08:00 - [1155]
 

Originally by: Enuen Ravenseye

Made me think: I guess we know where Brad is working now!


You sir owe me a new keyboard, spit my drink out when I read that laughing.

Gwenywell Shumuku
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:08:00 - [1156]
 

Originally by: Verone
Originally by: Gwenywell Shumuku
Edited by: Gwenywell Shumuku on 23/06/2011 11:55:06
Edited by: Gwenywell Shumuku on 23/06/2011 11:54:36
Originally by: Verone
That's what I don't understand.

Why the hell do I want one, and what is the incentive to buy one regardless of price when it has absolutely NO impact on my game play at all?



See, thats where i'm disappointed, you are a nice guy and all, but man, try to focus on EVE as a whole and not just your little world.
This argument is like "what do i care if the world around me burns down, as long as my nice little house is fine".

If you can't see where CCP's vision is leading and why this is bad for EVE in the long run, i don't know what is? Do they have to ban your accounts for you to care? And sry if i single you out, you are just one of many with this attitude.


When you've been playing Eve for as long as I have, you come to expect things. One of those things is that not every part of Eve will be tailored to your enjoyment or gameplay needs.

I look at the parts of Eve that I enjoy, and those that have an effect on what I enjoy. The rest is for other people to be concerned over.




Ok, but why mock them then for their worries? They are as legitimate as yours when you reach your "limit".

Atreus Venom
Gallente
New Eden Hitmen
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:09:00 - [1157]
 

im trying to find where to end my subscription and i cant find it.... do i just let my time run out or what?

In System
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:09:00 - [1158]
 

T20
"Ghost" training
And now this.

Ignoring all the minor times you've screwed us around, of course.

Fucking. Lovely.

How about you grow some balls and front up to your playerbase?

Moderate me, ban me, you shitlicking cum-gargling, cock-juggling, feces-coated pustules. Show that you're reading this thread.


leth ghost
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:10:00 - [1159]
 

Originally by: In System
T20
"Ghost" training
And now this.

Ignoring all the minor times you've screwed us around, of course.

Fucking. Lovely.

How about you grow some balls and front up to your playerbase?

Moderate me, ban me, you shitlicking cum-gargling, cock-juggling, feces-coated pustules. Show that you're reading this thread.




+1

Obviously Confidential
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:10:00 - [1160]
 

I don't think anyone reasonably sane has a problem with vanity items being sold in EVE. If it generates extra income to fuel development I am all for it!

The main concern here, for me at least, is the fact that CCP seems to be focused on other products (WoD, DUST), treats EVE like a "golden goose", and appears more interested in ways to make money through whatever fotm stuff the CEO saw at E3, rather than what they are good at, making awesome virtual spaceship game worlds.

CCP should not attend E3 to mimic business stuff from other games. CCP should attend E3 and think "maybe we are small but we are awesome at what we do, have been around for ages and these guys should learn and respect us" I don't think many of the things from the MMO world are applicable to EVE, and that is not a bad thing since we are pretty awesome in our own right. Of course, looking at budget and sales from other games one might be tempted to daydream, but that is their reality and not ours. If EVE continues to be a good game, more people will come. It will develop and grow naturally if CCP remains focused on making it an even more awesome game. Introducing new and crappy business schemes that are not that relevant should not shift the focus from building a wonderful sci fi world and engaging universe. Differentiation is what makes EVE strive and grow, it already is one of the most expensive subscription MMO's out there. This is prime material and should be treated as such, nurtured and developed further.

I would like to think that an internal magazine such as this would be focused on technology, ways to do more fun stuff, development of new ideas, etc. Instead it reads like a poor man's version of a zine from a bunch of nerds that just discovered business and are out of touch with their customers/market/product. A company encouraging free thinking among its employees is a good thing, but in between suggesting we should go for MT because some out of touch with reality dev plays LoL and likes to buy dresses (same dude now responsible for "the flying in space part" and "concerned about 0.0" per last week at9 interview Shocked); and the physics dude sharing his keen money making insights about the MMO experience (we're not talking Feynman material here, neither Michael Porter for that matter Confused) I am a bit disappointed.

The focus seems to be on finding better ways to milk EVE players in order to fuel other things that are totally irrelevant or extremely risky if compared with EVE. What is so wrong about being a small company but still making money and having a wonderful spaceship game that has been growing for years on end? Not all companies need to be large blockbuster sellers, and EVE has seen several of those rise and fall during it's history. We should stick to our guns and do what we are good at.

CCP should look at Google, not only a technology company but the #1 brand in the world. Google is all structured around technology. The business people are treated as necessary but are generally outside the main company culture, and management encourages it to be that way. Google employs many smart managers and has several business areas but there is no doubt about what they should do and what their purpose is. Business is necessary to fuel more technology. But the focus is on technology. Google makes money!

Considering the past EVE Gate fiasco, the quality issues with unfinished stuff, the $99 fee for licencing sites confusion, the lackluster Incarna expansion (thank you for the awesome turrets and cosmetics but CQ has crappy performance, looks terrible and is useless) and now this, I feel this internal philosophy shift is having a detrimental impact on product quality and the community has grown aware of this.

CCP should get it's act together and focus on what matters. For their own good.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:11:00 - [1161]
 

Originally by: Verone

That said, I'm not going to throw a fit about content that they're CONSIDERING and discussing. I'd rather wait to see what actually goes into the queue for development before I start getting a sandy vagina over future content.



Let me paste a relevant section of Scott Holdens article :

Incarna cannot be considered a product distinct from other parts of EVE. Incarna and “flying-in-space” (and in due course DUST514) are merely aspects of the EVE Online experience; in virtual sales, as in development as a whole, we must all adopt this way of thinking.
Thus, we will not and cannot focus on virtual sales only within the Incarna environment, nor build that environment around such sales; rather, we will effect a universal strategy of micro-sales throughout the EVE experience.


That tells me that it IS going to happen and that its going to be consistent across Dust and Eve. Dust is going to be driven by MTs on everything from weapons to influence. Eve will do the same.

I'm very grateful to whoever leaked this PDF. It has at least allowed me to see what CCP wish to do with the game but won't tell us officially. Its also allowed me to realise that you shouldn't listen to a single thing Soundwave says again - sorry matey but your credibility is shot to bits.

Reed Tiburon
Caldari
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:11:00 - [1162]
 

Hey Spitfire!

Hey Navigator!

Hey Zymurgist!

I know you gits are reading this thread. I know it's more comfortable to stick your head in the sand, but at the risk of blowing your minds, I have a suggestion: How about a statement for the people?



I'm sorry, I had you confused with someone who gave a ****. Won't happen again.

Tehlana Riolis
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:11:00 - [1163]
 

Originally by: Atreus Venom
im trying to find where to end my subscription and i cant find it.... do i just let my time run out or what?

You go in Account Management and there you will find a option to disable payment via card. Then the sub will be canceled one payed time runs out.

Rex Liberium
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:12:00 - [1164]
 

Edited by: Rex Liberium on 23/06/2011 12:14:40
Originally by: Enuen Ravenseye
Originally by: Houdian Black
Well it seems like there are quiet a few unhappy people at CCP who I could see leaking this. Linkage


Oh my, but that is hysterical. I especially liked:
"There is a blatant lack of vision and direction for the project I work on and the people leading it are allowed to remain in their position on a basis of friendship rather than competence."

Made me think: I guess we know where Brad is working now!


Cons
The lack of communication and transparency can be quite frustrating. Managers tend to hide things from the staff and are more reactive than proactive. The company has asked for trust yet has done nothing but hide facts and information from the staff to create a level of distrust and anxiety never seen before. There exists no employee handbook or procedural handbook to help codify the systems of all three offices. A huge discrepancy on how various members in the company are treated and respect for outstanding performance is nonexistent. Outstanding work is expected and not rewarded. Salary is a joke.

Lol not only is outside communication lacking, its the same on the inside.

And another:

Cons
Communication and knowledge sharing is a disaster, there is little or no documentation for older areas of development and documentation is still considered optional by many. There are multiple braking points in communication, especially on the vertical (between upper management and the work floor).
There is a blatant lack of vision and direction for the project I work on and the people leading it are allowed to remain in their position on a basis of friendship rather than competence.
Structure and process are anathema to many employees, including management. There is an irrational fear of becoming "too corporate" or losing the "company culture" (which pretty much equals to partying) and so management refuses to implement or even consider sorely needed order in the organizational chaos.

3drealms anyone?

Vandrion
Gallente
The Collective
B O R G
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:12:00 - [1165]
 

Edited by: Vandrion on 23/06/2011 12:12:20
If true (and I believe it probably is) then this is what just happened:

CCP has completed the coat hanger abortion of Eve...................Evil or Very Mad

Jonas Glim
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:15:00 - [1166]
 

Quote:
"Not all virtual purchases will focus on customization, some will simply be new items, ammunition, ships, etc. that can be purchased outright."

"One other service we're looking at is selling faction standings. We want to offer convenience"


^^ This is why I've cancelled my subs untill someone from CCP says this document is fake.

I've only played for 2 years or so, but in all that time I've never felt at a disadvantage next to the vets, never bought into the whole "you can't compete with the high SP characters" rubbish, and always believed in the strength of the sandbox and that it would allow me to carve out my own little bit of Empire.

Not if this happens. MT for anything other than vanity items fundamentally changes the game I signed up for 2+ years, and it's not one I want to play.

Having read the document I have one question for the normally likeable CCP Soundwave: Just because you've "been using virtual goods sales for a long time now and actually prefer them over subscriptions" what makes you think we do too, and are willing to change to that business model?

Constantinus Maximus
Paxian Expeditionary Force
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:16:00 - [1167]
 

Originally by: Vandrion
Edited by: Vandrion on 23/06/2011 12:12:20
If true (and I believe it probably is) then this is what just happened:

CCP has completed the coat hanger abortion of Eve...................Evil or Very Mad


coat hanger abortion is best abortion

Aruken Marr
Gallente
Noctiscion
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:17:00 - [1168]
 

The hell is this ****?

Maul555
Amarr
Reliables Inc
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:18:00 - [1169]
 

Originally by: In System
T20
"Ghost" training
And now this.

Ignoring all the minor times you've screwed us around, of course.

Fucking. Lovely.

How about you grow some balls and front up to your playerbase?

Moderate me, ban me, you shitlicking cum-gargling, cock-juggling, feces-coated pustules. Show that you're reading this thread.




+2

leth ghost
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:19:00 - [1170]
 

this thread is getting close to the amount of views a 2 year old sticky has in a day !!!!!!!!!!


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