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Tammarr
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:28:00 - [1111]
 

Locking this thread would ensure that people would flame away about how real it is and how ccp is throwing to cover it up by disallowing discussion.
Currently they are damned if they do, damned if they don't. Looking at other threads on other forums, the engineers behind this little hoax are less shy in their words about how they feel.

There is alot of engineering in this thread with some faces with a wee bit of alts and great vocabularies, great people at having different personalities for the different chars they post with.
Couple this with the outrage fail over the noble pricing and said faces being upset about this, the timing of this internal document finding its way out: is to good to be true.

And what have we all learned from eve about things that are to good to be true?

If this turns out to be true, I'll eat *looks around for something thats not his socks, not his headset, not his monitor*
...Can I just settle with eating a pack of broccoli? I hate broccoli :(

HeIIfire11
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:28:00 - [1112]
 

Originally by: Bomberlocks

Verone, you've been brownnosing CCP for so long that you wouldn't recognise a mountain if it slapped you in the face while you tripped over the molehill.


rotflLaughing

Constantinus Maximus
Paxian Expeditionary Force
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:30:00 - [1113]
 

Edited by: Constantinus Maximus on 23/06/2011 11:30:51
Originally by: Iulia Badr Marinela
http://i.imgur.com/5wiWj.jpg


Moderators are slow today and CCP never bothered to take 5mins and edit the forum code to be secure.

Use url tag, imgs can be used to cross site script, half the forum has them turned off.

HeIIfire11
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:32:00 - [1114]
 

Originally by: Verone


I have more money than I know what to do with in Eve, and I earn a very healthy wage out of game, but like hell will I pay for any of these microtransaction based features.


Then why is it that you don't own a monocle??Shocked

Put your money where your eye is.

Yagen
Sense of Serendipity
Echoes of Nowhere
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:32:00 - [1115]
 

If this is real (and it pretty much is, I believe), then the only way for CCP to get things right (and get me to resub) is to
- Publicly apologise for all this
- Fire those people whose opinion do not reflect those of CCP but proove they are utterly incompetent at what they do

Furthermore, EvE has the highest sub price on the market, this is supposed to pay for content (2x sub per person = 24€/6 month = 1 fully-fledged expansion). Incarna has been 5 years in the making, and we should pay for aforementionned content when all we have been delivered is a joke? No "friday sales", give us all this content for free. This is the least you can do to atone for the immense failure of the last week.

And while we are at it, don't screw up WoD with this kind of stupidity.

I guess CCP failed at growing up, when even Hilmar doesn't have a clue. This company could never have dared to even print "Greed is Good" 5 years ago.

Aluchem
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:34:00 - [1116]
 

This is copied from a thread on our internal forums about this. Seeing as it adequately sums up my views I felt I should paste it here on what I think must be my second ever Eve-O post:

Anyone with half an ounce of business sense will tell you that in order to make money and satisfy repeat customers then your services offered and public perception need to be good.

If people feel that they are being treated unfairly or ripped off then they will jump ship. The effects of this are easily noticeable; Using for example insurance companies, watch their adverts. Now answer me how many of those ads are saying "We offer the best insurance"? Not many. Now how many say "We have the best customer service and we care about our customers"? Nearly all of them.

Customer perception matters a hell of a lot. It can make or break any business, and there are MMOs out there who serve as prime examples of what happened when they alienated their customers. The best way to improve your customer perception is simply communication coupled with a fair and good product. CCP is actively talking internally about completely reversing their promise to their active customers regarding Micro-Transactions. CCP wants to charge us $70 for a fake ****ing monacle.

Now maybe you see that as fine, but I feel like I was just **** on. My customer perception of CCP has been severely damaged by this, and if I see them break their promise I won't be willing to pay them for a game even if I enjoy it. And I'm far from the only one.

So before you decide to make money off someone, you sure as hell better be careful what impact that has on your public image. CCP ****ed this up in a big way.

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:35:00 - [1117]
 

Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: Verone


I have more money than I know what to do with in Eve, and I earn a very healthy wage out of game, but like hell will I pay for any of these microtransaction based features.


Then why is it that you don't own a monocle??Shocked

Put your money where your eye is.


That's what I don't understand.

Why the hell do I want one, and what is the incentive to buy one regardless of price when it has absolutely NO impact on my game play at all?


dibblebill
Danneskjold Heavy Industries
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:36:00 - [1118]
 

I still say it looks fake, and more like a parody of CCP and its community than anything else.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:36:00 - [1119]
 

Originally by: Yagen
Furthermore, EvE has the highest sub price on the market
People keep saying this, and yet, it's not particularly hard to find games that cost the same or (yes) more…

Lederstrumpf
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:37:00 - [1120]
 

Edited by: Lederstrumpf on 23/06/2011 11:40:46
== Kristoffer Touborg ==

I would like virtual goods sales in EVE. [] I think they’re brilliant

[..]

our players don't [..] I don’t really understand the logic behind it

== snip ==

A manager who has no ****ing clue about customer needs should get fired - the earlier the better!

He's putting his own personal belief above customer feedback despite even admitting to not understand what's going on.

Following such path has one direction only: Downhill.

He obviously does not care about EVE as a game either:

If he would, he'd easily grasp that fairness within a given framework is one of the most fundamental rules for a game to be enjoyed. Causing havoc upon such relative fairness by giving paying/rich folks huge advantages only can damage the game.

The game is your product. It is under attack. Fire the ones trying to damage it!

Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:37:00 - [1121]
 

Originally by: Verone
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: Verone


I have more money than I know what to do with in Eve, and I earn a very healthy wage out of game, but like hell will I pay for any of these microtransaction based features.


Then why is it that you don't own a monocle??Shocked

Put your money where your eye is.


That's what I don't understand.

Why the hell do I want one, and what is the incentive to buy one regardless of price when it has absolutely NO impact on my game play at all?




You will the hell want one when it boosts your perception skills or something


Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:38:00 - [1122]
 

Originally by: Verone

Why the hell do I want one, and what is the incentive to buy one regardless of price when it has absolutely NO impact on my game play at all?



You feel the same about buying standing changes or unique ammo? That IS what's coming as the lead game designer is proposing exactly that. This threadnaught may get it delayed a little but it IS going to happen.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:38:00 - [1123]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 23/06/2011 11:38:25
can't believe I read (sorta) the 38 pages of this threadShocked


anyways, I tried to come up with pros and cons of this debacle after I read the "supposedly leaked" pdf (of which the inaction from CCP seems to make it even more and more true), and I came up with nothing.

CCP is pulling a SWG with this and, unlike SOE, it won't have the capital from some big publisher to absorb it. IF they go ahead with it I can expect it to go under within a year or smth.

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:39:00 - [1124]
 

Originally by: Miilla
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: Verone


I have more money than I know what to do with in Eve, and I earn a very healthy wage out of game, but like hell will I pay for any of these microtransaction based features.


Then why is it that you don't own a monocle??Shocked

Put your money where your eye is.


That's what I don't understand.

Why the hell do I want one, and what is the incentive to buy one regardless of price when it has absolutely NO impact on my game play at all?




You will the hell want one when it boosts your perception skills or something




Already has implants, thx :3


Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:39:00 - [1125]
 



I can get an hour with a sex worker cheaper than a monacle.


Reed Tiburon
Caldari
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:42:00 - [1126]
 

Originally by: Aluchem
This is copied from a thread on our internal forums about this. Seeing as it adequately sums up my views I felt I should paste it here on what I think must be my second ever Eve-O post:

Anyone with half an ounce of business sense will tell you that in order to make money and satisfy repeat customers then your services offered and public perception need to be good.

If people feel that they are being treated unfairly or ripped off then they will jump ship. The effects of this are easily noticeable; Using for example insurance companies, watch their adverts. Now answer me how many of those ads are saying "We offer the best insurance"? Not many. Now how many say "We have the best customer service and we care about our customers"? Nearly all of them.

Customer perception matters a hell of a lot. It can make or break any business, and there are MMOs out there who serve as prime examples of what happened when they alienated their customers. The best way to improve your customer perception is simply communication coupled with a fair and good product. CCP is actively talking internally about completely reversing their promise to their active customers regarding Micro-Transactions. CCP wants to charge us $70 for a fake ****ing monacle.

Now maybe you see that as fine, but I feel like I was just **** on. My customer perception of CCP has been severely damaged by this, and if I see them break their promise I won't be willing to pay them for a game even if I enjoy it. And I'm far from the only one.

So before you decide to make money off someone, you sure as hell better be careful what impact that has on your public image. CCP ****ed this up in a big way.

QFT. CCP has shown that they don't give a flying **** about us; they see customers as walking wallets. This document shows that they are concerned with getting maximum MONEY for minimum SERVICE. Why should I give my money to a company like that? Better I spend my subscription fee on hookers rather than monocles; at least they pretend to care about me.

Chuckles Beeshaw
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:43:00 - [1127]
 

man this is sad:

Quote:
There is a pretty overwhelming perception amongst EVE players that these changes are bad. I think they're brilliant, but our players don't.

--

I don't really understand the logic behind it, but that's probably because I've been using virtual goods sales for a long time now .. Why? Because they let me manage my spending, and I'll sometimes prefer to buy a better experience when engaging in my hobby.


so because THIS GUY^ likes spending real money on ****ing pixels to make himself awesome on his own time, automatically assumes we'll just get used to it and love it in eve?

the **** is this guy smoking ?

Cedric deBouilard
Gallente
PonyWaffe
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:44:00 - [1128]
 

Originally by: dibblebill
I still say it looks fake, and more like a parody of CCP and its community than anything else.


If you consider CCP sells a monocle for $80, this doesn't look fake at all, at least it reflects their thinking with 100% accuracy. Also the game art assets in that PDF look pretty much authentic to me.

Constantinus Maximus
Paxian Expeditionary Force
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:44:00 - [1129]
 

Edited by: Constantinus Maximus on 23/06/2011 11:45:18

Originally by: dibblebill
I still say it looks fake, and more like a parody of CCP and its community than anything else.


You must be new.

It mirrors their public statements and releases they've attempted, exactly, just the internal part of the dialog.

Why does it look like a parody?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

ExcalibursTemplar
Caldari
Citadel Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:45:00 - [1130]
 

Originally by: Reed Tiburon
QFT. CCP has shown that they don't give a flying **** about us; they see customers as walking wallets. This document shows that they are concerned with getting maximum MONEY for minimum SERVICE. Why should I give my money to a company like that? Better I spend my subscription fee on hookers rather than monocles; at least they pretend to care about me.


PMSL

Mind if a quote you in my sig as thats funny as hell.

Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:45:00 - [1131]
 

Originally by: Chuckles Beeshaw
man this is sad:

Quote:
There is a pretty overwhelming perception amongst EVE players that these changes are bad. I think they're brilliant, but our players don't.

--

I don't really understand the logic behind it, but that's probably because I've been using virtual goods sales for a long time now .. Why? Because they let me manage my spending, and I'll sometimes prefer to buy a better experience when engaging in my hobby.


so because THIS GUY^ likes spending real money on ****ing pixels to make himself awesome on his own time, automatically assumes we'll just get used to it and love it in eve?

the **** is this guy smoking ?


Makes managing spending easier?

It does the opposite. it is price rises by stealth, in the long run, the game costs MORE, you just don't see it that way until you check your bank at the end of the month and wonder where it went.

Stable subs or not at all.


diaufop
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:46:00 - [1132]
 

Edited by: diaufop on 23/06/2011 11:46:58
Originally by: Nikki West
Originally by: General Windypops


What utter nonsense. You honestly didn't expect game developers to be looking at options like this? Every single MMO developer is having exactly the same conversations that CCP are. And some of them are changing already - look at what happened with LOTRO's F2P.



What did happen to LOTRO? They completely removed subscription fees and switched to a different model. They didn't add MTs on top of subscriptions because that would be insane - which is what €€P is doing.

Just to clear this up as a player of both DDO and LoTRO for some time.

DDO and LoTRO both use the same business model:

Option A) Pay your monthly/6-monthly/yearly subscription fee, get access to all game content, all race/classes, and so on, and get 500 Turbine Points to spend in the cash shop every month on vanity stuff/consumables/whatever.

Option B) Play for free - a few races/classes restricted, and have free access to approx 20% of the game's content. Buy the rest of the content (one-time fee), unlock races/clases, etc, with the cash shop.

Prices in said cash shop range from 50 Turbine Points for some little trinket or consumable to 2995 Turbine Points for a +2 to all stats tome (an EVE equivalent would be an upgrade that boosts your ship's EHP, speed, agility, and DPS by 5%), content packs are around the 450-1500 mark.

Swapping from a subscription-only game to the "hybrid model" as Turbine call it, DDO went from a dead game to one having more regular active players than EVE does by far (and almost none of them are bots). LoTRO went from a slowly dying game to having even more regular active users than DDO. Turbine made a ****ing fortune.

I somehow doubt that CCP will actually follow this path however, looks like they're going subscription only + MEGAtransactions. Which I highly doubt will work as well for them as Turbine's change did.

Nimbat
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:46:00 - [1133]
 

They locked the thread where we discussed the ban of helicity :(

HeIIfire11
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:47:00 - [1134]
 

Originally by: Constantinus Maximus
Edited by: Constantinus Maximus on 23/06/2011 11:30:51
Originally by: Iulia Badr Marinela
http://i.imgur.com/5wiWj.jpg


Moderators are slow today and CCP never bothered to take 5mins and edit the forum code to be secure.

Use url tag, imgs can be used to cross site script, half the forum has them turned off.


They are here though..they locked this thread today.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1534786&page=3

Caladan Broood
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:48:00 - [1135]
 

This issue goes further than CCP adding in DLC at an absurd price. The issue relates back to game companies now starting to think they don't need to make complete games or items any more. For whatever reason, the companies are starting to make the "basic" play code and then hold back "premium" content for DLC later. So you are paying for an unfinished product. CCP is just starting to get into this market but look around at all the other games where they release the product and within a day or two they have dozens of maps, mods, weapons, etc ready for you to pay extra.

You have to ask, how much time went into the basic code and how much extra time was spent with DLC. Incarna has all the hallmarks of a new basic game frame ready to be plugged in with DLC. We can probably kiss goodbye anything good being added to the game in terms of content. Now if you want more exciting, difficult, better rewarding missions you can purchase them; new planets purchase; sov purchase it (in connection with Dust). CCP is retooling eve to be one huge DLC microtransaction universe where you also get the benefit of paying a monthly fee.

Did you really want an incursion in Jita, well for the low low price of 200k AU it can be purchasedTwisted Evil

Cyaxares II
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:48:00 - [1136]
 

Edited by: Cyaxares II on 23/06/2011 11:49:46
Originally by: Tammarr

There is alot of engineering in this thread with some faces with a wee bit of alts and great vocabularies, great people at having different personalities for the different chars they post with.
Couple this with the outrage fail over the noble pricing and said faces being upset about this, the timing of this internal document finding its way out: is to good to be true.

dude, it's all the mega-rich PLEX speculators that got burned by the NeX pricing... now PLEX prices dropped below 400m and they are losing money

just look at this thread - of course they are mad at CCP

Carmine Lady
Amarr
Sinners.
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:48:00 - [1137]
 

Originally by: Nimbat
They locked the thread where we discussed the ban of helicity :(


:( its a sad time when ccp start banning the likes of helicity

this is low ccp.

Noferatu
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:48:00 - [1138]
 

Disturbing.

I've been playing Eve since 2006, pretty much every day. I admit to having invested a disproportionate amount of time in Eve. And the more time I invest in my characters, the harder it would be to give the game up.

But this... this is in one way worrying - and in another, hardly surprising. In any customer-centric business, there is a disparity between machinated "customer perception" and actual internal opinion toward customers.

CCP's silence in this threadnaught is the worrying bit.

Qui tacet consentire videtur - "He who is silent is seen to agree".


leth ghost
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:48:00 - [1139]
 

Originally by: Nimbat
They locked the thread where we discussed the ban of helicity :(


they finaly come out trying to do some damage limitation then lol

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:48:00 - [1140]
 

Originally by: Othran
Originally by: Verone

Why the hell do I want one, and what is the incentive to buy one regardless of price when it has absolutely NO impact on my game play at all?



You feel the same about buying standing changes or unique ammo? That IS what's coming as the lead game designer is proposing exactly that. This threadnaught may get it delayed a little but it IS going to happen.


No, not at all.

Then I most certainly WOULD be annoyed.

I don't believe at all that someone's out of game wallet should determine how successful they are in a game or reflect their ability to get ahead in it.

We should all pay out $14.95 a month and have a level playing field, sadly that's not the case in any MMO given the popularity of RMT, and the effective legalisation of it by CCP through PLEX trading.

Hence the reason I've never gotten involved in territorial 0.0 warfare, I don't like the idea that I could put hundreds of man hours into creating an empire and colonising a region, only to have someone with a huge out of game bank balance fund their alliance from RMT to come steam-roll something built with actual effort.

This is why I opposed PLEX so much, and this is why I dislike the entire concept of micro transactions overall.

Personally I feel that micro transactions have no place in Eve, or any other sandbox MMO where the gameplay is emergent.

I also feel that the whole concept of them in Eve is a way of producing extra funding solely to support the development of other projects, such as World of Darkness and DUST.

That said, I'm not going to throw a fit about content that they're CONSIDERING and discussing. I'd rather wait to see what actually goes into the queue for development before I start getting a sandy vagina over future content.



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