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blankseplocked For all the naysayers about lasers having recoil..
 
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Privateeralliance Sucks
Posted - 2011.06.21 17:15:00 - [31]
 

It's eve online, not "recoils online"...put it in, it looks good :)

Heimdallofasgard
APEX ARDENT COALITION
Nulli Tertius
Posted - 2011.06.21 17:15:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Lara Dantreb
Edited by: Lara Dantreb on 21/06/2011 17:09:55
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
Why wouldnt they have recoil. Assume just for a moment that when you fire a laser with the activation cost of 95 GJ thats GIGA Joules (tachyon beam laser 2) , converts into 95,000,000,000 Watts per second. I don't care what anyone says but releasing that much energy out of the end of a barrel will definately cause some recoil.


95 GJ of light at 0.5Ám wavelenght = 2.4x10^29 photons

each photon has a proper impulsion of 10^-27 kg.m.s^-1

2.4x10^29*10^-27 = 2400 kg thrust, wich is not big but enough for recoil

see solar wind or solar sail in wikipedia for details

cheers


Indeed, Laser = Light, Light = Photons, Photons have momentum, Ejecting from end of barrel = Pushing back on the barrel.

2400kg of thrust is definitely not insignificant on a turret. especially as it's an impulsive force.

Maplestone
Myth and Peace Lords
Posted - 2011.06.21 17:17:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Mendolus
Capsule's on-board interface device interprets external data in the visible spectrum, don't you even know the slightest about the game's IP?


Proof: I can turn off display of lasers in the graphics settings :)

Atticus Fynch
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.21 17:22:00 - [34]
 

Check this out:

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/8/2010/09/telescope-laser-milky-way-100915-02.jpg

This laser is visible because of the exposure setting for this shot. (Which is why the whole Milky Way is so damn bright in the background)

But normally, the beam would not be visible to the naked eye.

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2011.06.21 17:24:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Obsidian Hawk on 21/06/2011 17:24:26
Originally by: Atticus Fynch
Edited by: Atticus Fynch on 21/06/2011 17:15:20
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
Originally by: Atticus Fynch
Edited by: Atticus Fynch on 21/06/2011 17:03:22
The real question here is why do EVE lasers create visible beams?

A true laser does not create a visible beam. It only becomes visible when passing thorough medium like smoke or fog.

So in effect, what EVE has are not true lasers at all, but are just called that. With that argument, it is possible for this "beam" weapon to have recoil.






Well if you go with astrophysical theory that there is a lot of random 'dust' in space just all over the place, then that can explain visible lasers.


Well then space must be really dusty to create such bright beams. Someone get the vacuum cleaner.

BTW, lasers have been shot to the moon (in real life) and guess what...no beam was visible.

Originally by: Mendolus

Capsule's on-board interface device interprets external data in the visible spectrum, don't you even know the slightest about the game's IP?


Then I should appear while cloaked...after all, I'm still visible in local chat, right?


space is dusty definately dusty especially if we have huge dark spots where the center of the galaxy is.


OH I could contend. light is a wave and not a particle. Light when tested in various way exhibits behavior reminiscent of wave emissions and not particle emissions.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.06.21 17:25:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Atticus Fynch
Then I should appear while cloaked...after all, I'm still visible in local chat, right?


They can do and say whatever they bloody well want with the game environment because it is fiction, and they wrote it, capice?

It is really not that hard to understand.

Thoraxe Rig
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.21 17:37:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Lara Dantreb
Edited by: Lara Dantreb on 21/06/2011 17:09:55
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
Why wouldnt they have recoil. Assume just for a moment that when you fire a laser with the activation cost of 95 GJ thats GIGA Joules (tachyon beam laser 2) , converts into 95,000,000,000 Watts per second. I don't care what anyone says but releasing that much energy out of the end of a barrel will definately cause some recoil.


95 GJ of light at 0.5Ám wavelenght = 2.4x10^29 photons

each photon has a proper impulsion of 10^-27 kg.m.s^-1

2.4x10^29*10^-27 = 2400 kg thrust, wich is not big but enough for recoil

see solar wind or solar sail in wikipedia for details

cheers


I... I love this.
The end is in sight.

Feralloki Arnerette
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:29:00 - [38]
 

As I read this thread, I have to believe that my physics professor is one of you on these forums. That being said, I have the answer to all your questions about recoil.






It's a game. The end.

(DAM I'M GOOD)

noldevin
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:43:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Atticus Fynch
Then I should appear while cloaked...after all, I'm still visible in local chat, right?


No, because cloaking devices likely jam or distort so that your ship cannot be displayed even if their electronics wanted to try it.

I Accidentally YourShip
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:14:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
Edited by: Obsidian Hawk on 21/06/2011 17:24:26

OH I could contend. light is a wave and not a particle. Light when tested in various way exhibits behavior reminiscent of wave emissions and not particle emissions.


Incorrect, my good man, light is a particle (photon) that propagates through space as a wave. It is a particle that exhibits wave-particle duality behaviour. All electromagnetic energy is carried by photons (which are an elementary particle, a boson if you are interested) and the type of energy is based on the frequency of the wave that the photon travels in.

It's hard to grasp that a photon is a particle even though it has no mass however it CAN have mass in some special cases. I believe when they slowed light down to a fraction of c it exhibited mass but don't quote me on that one.

GavinCapacitor
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:16:00 - [41]
 

For what its worth light does have momentum, but no mass, if I recall my high school physics correctly. It why light can go light speed but solar sails still work.

Also, eve is ghost submarines. Think about it. 1.) resistance - ships have max speed / engine must be on to maintain speed 2.) no collision 3.) lasers have a visible beam.

Herping yourDerp
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:17:00 - [42]
 

fire laser.
center flys back to cool in space
goes back
fire laser
repeat.

Atticus Fynch
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:19:00 - [43]
 

For all those saying "it's a game" you are playing this thread all wrong.

It's an immersion debate about the lack of reality of EVE lasers/recoil and justifying it somehow.


ry ry
Heroes.
Merciless.
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:21:00 - [44]
 

if it's good enough for star 'sound travels in space' wars it's good enough for eve 'sound also travels in space' online.

also, i'm your father.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:23:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: GavinCapacitor
lasers have a visible beam.


What about 'your capsule has no windows and an on-board device translates external data to the visible light spectrum for you' do you sorry ___s not understand?

Have you never heard of night vision, thermal imaging, x-ray machines? FFS there's an endless list of these devices used in the real world to help medical practitioners make sense of data they cannot 'see' in the visible light spectrum. You are floating around space in a sealed egg with no windows, of course the on-board computer is going to interpret data outside the visible spectrum in a way you can understand and make sense of it, are you all really this dense?


Malcheus
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:32:00 - [46]
 

first off, if the recoil is to cool down the laser, can I make my lasers go up an down all the time to cool them down faster?

Secondly; what's the point of recoil of something in space anyways? everything is weightless, so should the ship not fly equally fast in the other direction alltogether, instead of just the barrel of the gun?

Looking at it from another perspective; the gun shoots, the barrel moves backwards. then the barrel is slowed down, at this point it transfers its energy to its base, the ship. Since the ship is weightless, this energy should be converted into a lot of forward energy for the ship in the opposite direction.
Same goes for the energy transferred between the gun and the projectile, which should also be converted into movement of the ship.

I'm not a physics expert, but shouldn't it work a bit like this?

Lara Dantreb
New Horizons
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:39:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Malcheus
first off, if the recoil is to cool down the laser, can I make my lasers go up an down all the time to cool them down faster?

Secondly; what's the point of recoil of something in space anyways? everything is weightless, so should the ship not fly equally fast in the other direction alltogether, instead of just the barrel of the gun?

Looking at it from another perspective; the gun shoots, the barrel moves backwards. then the barrel is slowed down, at this point it transfers its energy to its base, the ship. Since the ship is weightless, this energy should be converted into a lot of forward energy for the ship in the opposite direction.
Same goes for the energy transferred between the gun and the projectile, which should also be converted into movement of the ship.

I'm not a physics expert, but shouldn't it work a bit like this?


You make a mistake between weight, mass and inertia. Thus you are wrong, sorry

E man Industries
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:42:00 - [48]
 

this falls under the rule of coolRule of cool

brutorans
Minmatar
V I R I I
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:47:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Jim Luc
Recoil just is more cool. Period. Explosions in space is also cool (yet not scientifically possible in a vacuum)


space is not a true vacuum, there's loads of stuff out there. Explosions can occur, but your looking more toward the ignition of solid cryogenic fuel in space (see Apollo 11). Puncture a fuel cell in space with an inert round (IE a titanium sabot/splinter or structural component) fuels could mix without a source of ignition and freeze when expelled in to the hard cold of space. Run a laz0r over it or some other source of ignition (microwave, plasma etc) and you get a bang (if anything a large one due to the almost negligible levels of surrounding pressure out there.


Maplestone
Myth and Peace Lords
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:47:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Malcheus
Secondly; what's the point of recoil of something in space anyways? everything is weightless, so should the ship not fly equally fast in the other direction alltogether, instead of just the barrel of the gun?


Yes, but if the guns are not lined up with the ship's center of mass, a fraction of of the recoil energy would go into making it spin rather than fly back.

The same logic also applies to the ship being hit - it receives on impact all the momentum that the firing ship suffered in recoil, which would knock it about too.

Of course, inertial stablizer technology magically neutralizes a lot of these effects. I figure that New Eden is filled with dark matter phlogiston that drags on a lot of the grav tech.

Erim Solfara
Amarr
inFluX.
Posted - 2011.06.21 20:22:00 - [51]
 

If they have left laser recoil in, I'm pretty miffed about that. So much for being the 'ultimate sci-fi simulator', when they can't even get the basics right.


INB4 anyone tells me lasers DO have recoil, run the numbers, it's meaningless (hint, 640N of force from a half second 95GJ burst).

Bob TheSecond
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.21 20:27:00 - [52]
 

INB4 Nerds debate about this for 2 pages...

Lara Dantreb
New Horizons
Posted - 2011.06.21 21:02:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Erim Solfara
If they have left laser recoil in, I'm pretty miffed about that. So much for being the 'ultimate sci-fi simulator', when they can't even get the basics right.


INB4 anyone tells me lasers DO have recoil, run the numbers, it's meaningless (hint, 640N of force from a half second 95GJ burst).


Lasers are used to produce ultra-cold atoms in bose-einstein condensates : their photons actually exert a force on these atoms to stop the thermic motion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultracold_atom


Erim Solfara
Amarr
inFluX.
Posted - 2011.06.21 21:33:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Lara Dantreb
Originally by: Erim Solfara
If they have left laser recoil in, I'm pretty miffed about that. So much for being the 'ultimate sci-fi simulator', when they can't even get the basics right.


INB4 anyone tells me lasers DO have recoil, run the numbers, it's meaningless (hint, 640N of force from a half second 95GJ burst).


Lasers are used to produce ultra-cold atoms in bose-einstein condensates : their photons actually exert a force on these atoms to stop the thermic motion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultracold_atom




Yes, laser cooling, bose-einstein condensates, etc. Nothing to do with this topic though!

Lara Dantreb
New Horizons
Posted - 2011.06.21 21:50:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Lara Dantreb on 21/06/2011 22:05:43
Originally by: Erim Solfara
Originally by: Lara Dantreb
Originally by: Erim Solfara
If they have left laser recoil in, I'm pretty miffed about that. So much for being the 'ultimate sci-fi simulator', when they can't even get the basics right.


INB4 anyone tells me lasers DO have recoil, run the numbers, it's meaningless (hint, 640N of force from a half second 95GJ burst).


Lasers are used to produce ultra-cold atoms in bose-einstein condensates : their photons actually exert a force on these atoms to stop the thermic motion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultracold_atom




Yes, laser cooling, bose-einstein condensates, etc. Nothing to do with this topic though!


This topic is about lasers and recoils. Lasers actually have recoil and this topic has his ignorant troll now Very Happy

edit : hint : Conservation of linear momentum


Erim Solfara
Amarr
inFluX.
Posted - 2011.06.21 22:13:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Lara Dantreb
Edited by: Lara Dantreb on 21/06/2011 22:05:43
Originally by: Erim Solfara
Originally by: Lara Dantreb
Originally by: Erim Solfara
If they have left laser recoil in, I'm pretty miffed about that. So much for being the 'ultimate sci-fi simulator', when they can't even get the basics right.


INB4 anyone tells me lasers DO have recoil, run the numbers, it's meaningless (hint, 640N of force from a half second 95GJ burst).


Lasers are used to produce ultra-cold atoms in bose-einstein condensates : their photons actually exert a force on these atoms to stop the thermic motion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultracold_atom




Yes, laser cooling, bose-einstein condensates, etc. Nothing to do with this topic though!


This topic is about lasers and recoils. Lasers actually have recoil and this topic has his ignorant troll now Very Happy

edit : hint : Conservation of linear momentum




Did you not see the part where I said lasers do have recoil, but the numbers are pretty much irrelevant?

I even bothered working it out to be sure, so don't you conversation-of-linear-momentum me!

Child Pork
Posted - 2011.06.21 22:17:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Child Pork on 21/06/2011 22:16:47
Originally by: Atticus Fynch
The real question here is why do EVE lasers create visible beams?


So the game isn't totally balls?

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.06.21 22:24:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Bob TheSecond
INB4 Nerds debate about this for 2 pages...


nah you can't have a proper nerd rage in only two pages... last time we went for 10 ugh


Aglais
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.21 22:24:00 - [59]
 

Technically you shouldn't even be able to see the beams the turrets emit.

I try to justify the turrets having recoil in the sense that it gives the capsuleer a potentially tactile response to having fired their gun. Or something.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.06.21 22:30:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Atticus Fynch
Edited by: Atticus Fynch on 21/06/2011 17:03:22
The real question here is why do EVE lasers create visible beams?

A true laser does not create a visible beam. It only becomes visible when passing thorough medium like smoke or fog.

So in effect, what EVE has are not true lasers at all, but are just called that. With that argument, it is possible for this "beam" weapon to have recoil.


No visible light lasers you say?


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