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skye orionis
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:39:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Tommy Blue
--> I think having a button/choice of when to online your guns is important.


You just need some gameplay reasons to not have your guns deployed, to offset the advantage of being able to fire immediately. Something simple like 5% extra agility when weapons are in the stowed position would be nice.(missile ships could still have the option to stow weapons even without graphics)

Toshiko Kin
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:41:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Cade Windstalker
Fantastic job, can't wait to see the turrets in game!

By the way, you were right to leave recoil on lasers, any laser applying enough energy to a target to do significant damage would have as much or more recoil than the equivalent projectile weapon. Good old e=mc^2 states that light leaving an object imparts a force relative to the amount of energy the light contains.

Translation for anyone who doesn't speak physics: Laser guns pack one heck of a kick, Einstein said so.

Before anyone jumps on it, I said "as much or more" because it depends on the attenuation rate of the beam vs the energy lost by the projectile over its travel distance. The reason you never hear about lasers having recoil is because the only ones big enough to have recoil are also, right now, so big they have to have their own building.



Aren't photons massless? And if they do have mass, moving at the speed of light, wouldn't the earth, and all inner planets be pushed from the sun because of this mass? Haven't heard of the orbital calculations taking this force into consideration before...

*willing to admit that i could be wrong, but i would like to see proof that a laser turret would have significant recoil when fired.

Brendana Fortescue
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:49:00 - [63]
 

Am i the only one who thinks this is a disaster waiting to happen?

I mean sure it looks nice if someone flies solo in a mission but what happens when to a fleet of 50 jumps another fleet of 50 and on all ships turrets start to point different directions and shoot around and the computer needs to render it all...

I mean this should be given as optional in settings not forced.

Bridget Helm
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:50:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Toshiko Kin


Aren't photons massless? And if they do have mass, moving at the speed of light, wouldn't the earth, and all inner planets be pushed from the sun because of this mass? Haven't heard of the orbital calculations taking this force into consideration before...

*willing to admit that i could be wrong, but i would like to see proof that a laser turret would have significant recoil when fired.


The way I would look at it is yes Photons have no mass but the required reaction to generate up the pulse of energy for the beam would logically be set up to eject any other exocit particles away from the bulk of the ship. This would result recoil. After all we do not know what the process of generating the energy.

Soylent Pete
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:55:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Toshiko Kin

Aren't photons massless? And if they do have mass, moving at the speed of light, wouldn't the earth, and all inner planets be pushed from the sun because of this mass? Haven't heard of the orbital calculations taking this force into consideration before...

*willing to admit that i could be wrong, but i would like to see proof that a laser turret would have significant recoil when fired.


Photons do have mass. The earth doesn't get (noticeably) pushed around, because it has more mass than photons do. :P

Dalton Vanadis
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:57:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Toshiko Kin
Originally by: Cade Windstalker
Fantastic job, can't wait to see the turrets in game!

By the way, you were right to leave recoil on lasers, any laser applying enough energy to a target to do significant damage would have as much or more recoil than the equivalent projectile weapon. Good old e=mc^2 states that light leaving an object imparts a force relative to the amount of energy the light contains.

Translation for anyone who doesn't speak physics: Laser guns pack one heck of a kick, Einstein said so.

Before anyone jumps on it, I said "as much or more" because it depends on the attenuation rate of the beam vs the energy lost by the projectile over its travel distance. The reason you never hear about lasers having recoil is because the only ones big enough to have recoil are also, right now, so big they have to have their own building.



Aren't photons massless? And if they do have mass, moving at the speed of light, wouldn't the earth, and all inner planets be pushed from the sun because of this mass? Haven't heard of the orbital calculations taking this force into consideration before...

*willing to admit that i could be wrong, but i would like to see proof that a laser turret would have significant recoil when fired.


Light does provide slight thrust and force, though not an appreciable amount. Though given how powerful these lasers are supposed to be, it might up it to a slightly higher amount of force (light pressure is immensely weaker than gravity, if that gives you an idea though).

If I might propose a mechanism for the recoil, a simple mechanical slider that initiates on activation of the beam, whose purpose is to slide back for beam shut off to prevent burn out of the crystals, overheating lasers might then delay the slide-back and decrease the cool-off time, so more damage to the target and the gun. *If you really wanted a bs rp explanation...*

ORCACommander
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:58:00 - [67]
 

Might I suggest Damage animations and effects for when you are overload those modules?

And after reading all this I can see why missiles are being placed in a secondary position you folks did a lot of work in that year time. I just hope you guys do not get shifted into something else so we can finally progress to missile launchers.

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:58:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Seleene
This is fantastic!

At CSM summit we had a long overdue meeting with the leaders of the Art Dept. It was one of the more informative sessions and near the end we made a big point that, "You guys really should blog more. Blog big. Post shiny pics. The stuff you are talking about is interesting and cool."

I love that they not only talked about this feature, but also explained the genesis of it.


My sentiments exactly. Thank you CCP for this addition and for the detailed blog post about it!

Tommy Blue
Black Lance
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:00:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Aeril Malkyre
Originally by: Tommy Blue
This could tie into high sec where if you deploy your weapons you are flagged on grid as being a possible danger

Would make it hard to fight belt rats ;)

Originally by: Tommy Blue
--> I think having a button/choice of when to online your guns is important.

Heartily agree. I'd much prefer a bit more elegant system than warp popping. But it'll do for now.


Being flagged as dangerous doesnt mean you get shot at. it could be a 'oh maybe I should watch out because he may be trying to kill people' notification.

And I forgot all about missions/rats...my idea could be whittled down to gates and stations.

Dalton Vanadis
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:00:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Brendana Fortescue
Am i the only one who thinks this is a disaster waiting to happen?

I mean sure it looks nice if someone flies solo in a mission but what happens when to a fleet of 50 jumps another fleet of 50 and on all ships turrets start to point different directions and shoot around and the computer needs to render it all...

I mean this should be given as optional in settings not forced.


Uhh, your turrets already track targets, and the only difference here is there might be one more turret per slot that tracks and they look prettier... So I'm not seeing it here. Plus the client stops rendering effects at a certain camera zoom. e.g. when you zoom out, it stops rendering ship exhaust a certain point, and it really only needs to render what's in view, so if you're zoomed in, shouldn't be too big of a deal unless everyone's smashed into a small 5x5x5 km cube...

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:01:00 - [71]
 

Edited by: J Kunjeh on 21/06/2011 19:04:53
Originally by: Daesis Wrack

Please make graphics and usability improvements to brackets and the overview, not something we only see when zoomed in to the point where we're not playing the game. Thanks.


Umm....looking at my beautiful ships up close as well as other ships I come across while flying around IS playing the game. There isn't just one (read: PVP) thing to do in this game, you know?

Selar Nox
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:01:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: Selar Nox on 21/06/2011 19:02:43
First off, very nice stuff :) Happy to see this live later on

Originally by: skye orionis
indeed keep the art department doing artsy things, missile launchers and drone deploying would be nice, but having improved weapons fire, how about working on weapon hits. Weapons hitting another ship tend to all hit in exactly the same boring place every time...

/signed

Originally by: skye orionis

Weapons fire checklist:
* Hit multiple spots on the hull
* Visible shield interaction on ships with shields, the weapons fire should stop just outside the hull and deliver a nice flash of shield energy (blue when the shields are full and fading to red when the shields are about to go)
* Missed shots shouldn't look like they hit
* Autocannons and pulse lasers should strafe across the targets hull

/signed

Originally by: skye orionis

Then of course... it would be great if the art people could come up with a way to visibly show armour damage.
Also nice to have, but not top priority for me.

Adding a button for docking/undocking your turrets would be really cool :)

And please no crazy swarming missiles (anime like). Perhaps a small number of missiles with this behaviour would be acceptable, but please make the most missiles work in a more realistic way.

Soylent Pete
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:02:00 - [73]
 

They've been planning Solar Sails and laser-pressors (anti-tractor beams?) for years, using photons to push things. The mass is slight enough to be a problem if you're in a hurry, or too big, but if you're willing to wait for it... The thrust is there.

Lan Staz
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:10:00 - [74]
 

Love the new turrets, from what I've seen on SISI anyway.

Also, regarding....

Originally by: Soylent Pete
They've been planning Solar Sails and laser-pressors (anti-tractor beams?) for years, using photons to push things. The mass is slight enough to be a problem if you're in a hurry, or too big, but if you're willing to wait for it... The thrust is there.


Photons have zero rest mass, but they do have energy and momentum.

http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae180.cfm

Dalton Vanadis
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:14:00 - [75]
 

Excellent work art department!

I kinda wish I hadn't read the comments thread because now I want the next best thing, missiles and other turrets and what not.

But since we still have time on the effects bit and the missiles bit. I really do like the idea that was tossed around earlier of having the server treat grouped missiles as one object but have the client treat it as the appropriate graphic for a wave of missiles (2,3,4,etc volleys). And I especially like the idea of having the server treat the missile as going in a straight line, but having the client do something interesting (like the rocket launcher in the EVE future vision trailer).

And on my effects wishlist, I really like the point of impact idea, when the weapon smacks a shield, it diffracts a color flash, like blue for near full shields and going down into red for shields that are about to fail and then perhaps doing something similar to armor. And with the whole immersion bit, it'd be shnazzy to see the hull breaches on your ship when you dock up standing on the balcony. And it would be epic to see missed hits actually miss the ship.

Also, I'm a big fan of the toggle button idea with some advantage for stowing turrets, like an increase to agility, but it would add an aspect to gameplay that would be really cool; thinking of the movies where it's like "open torpedo tubes 1,3, and 5" or "prepare the forward phase cannon." That and I would get to watch the eye candy... Might need some love from the balance team, but I think if the playing field is level on the requirement to deploy turrets prior to shooting (or on target lock), it'd be really cool, might add an aspect of planning, say you deploy your turrets first so that when you get a lock you're all set to go as opposed to waiting for the turret to undock. Maybe save the state of the turret (deployed or stowed) across session changes, so when people jump through a wh, gate, what have you they're prepped and ready to go.

But otherwise, AMAZING work, and I really can't wait until you guys add the next round! (I can hope that some of the stuff on my long-ass wishlist above makes it on at leastLaughing)

omgamarrianrunaway
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:19:00 - [76]
 

Dear CCP in general and the art team in particular;

You owe me a new keyboard.

(Loving thisVery Happy)

Denuo Secus
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:22:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Second the motion for missile love. I recommend looking at '80s Anime for inspiration about how missiles should fly around the battlefield.

IMHO, it is totally OK if the client shows the missiles in a different position from where the server thinks the missiles are, as long as the two locations converge over time (hopefully in an insane set of corkscrews). Any discrepancies due to smartbombs and defender missiles will get lost in the fog of war, and you can just launch the missiles directly out of fixed tubes.

All the cute computations can be done on the client.


I'd prefer something like this -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSmhWkJ4MMA&feature=related (0:16)

I also like the missile sound in this video!

Great dev blog! More art dev blogs please Very Happy

Infinion
Caldari
Awesome Corp
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:27:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: Infinion on 21/06/2011 19:45:41
Does ccp have plans to change how projectiles miss targets that move faster than turret tracking speeds?

Now that turrets have a dual-material shader, will there be any plans for a more pronounced heat glow when turrets are overloaded? How about module damage?

edit: do you have any plans to rework the stiff drone turrets? If there are technical reasons behind not changing them can you at least have drones face their targets as they orbit instead of having projectiles fire out of muzzles on 90 degree angles?


Toshiko Kin
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:28:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Soylent Pete
They've been planning Solar Sails and laser-pressors (anti-tractor beams?) for years, using photons to push things. The mass is slight enough to be a problem if you're in a hurry, or too big, but if you're willing to wait for it... The thrust is there.


That is kinda what I was getting at, that the push back from the photons exiting the turret wouldn't be enough to overcome the turret's inertia. The recoil in a gun comes from the expanding gasses that are trying to push the bullet out the barrel, and end up exerting some of that force to the back of the barrel.

But it's all irrelevant... the lasers have recoil, so say the CCP gods who create the universe that we play in.

As far as the art work on the turrets, even though I won't see it that much, it is still cool to know the details are being looked after. I also want to say that I'm really glad that the turret positions on the ships will finally match the positions in the high slots. That's been bugging me since I started playing EVE.

Palovana
Caldari
Inner Fire Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:28:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Rixiu
I approve of these.

One question though, why don't 1400mm and 1200mm artillery (or all artillery?) have a single barrel anymore?


Alternating barrels for repeated shot cycles to allow for cooldown or faster RoF?

Raid'En
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:33:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: Raid''En on 21/06/2011 19:34:38
i don't really know how to feel for that ;
on one hand that's really nice when you see it on trailer or videos, really good work, but...
on antoher hand... well most of the work here have not much use ;
we may zoom on turrets while firghting boring npcs, but there's no reason we'll zoom at the good timing to see the turret deploy or things like that.
seems like wasted work for me... while the work itself is REALLY good.

Originally by: MotherMoon

"Then one day during another planning meeting our technical artist made the suggestion of why not just deploy when exiting warp, and pack when entering warp."

yeah... about that. It makes all your work on the new turrets wasted. It would be better if the new turrets didn't dock during warp, it's weird.

same advice here, bad timing :/

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Second the motion for missile love. I recommend looking at '80s Anime for inspiration about how missiles should fly around the battlefield.


"80's" ? you're not linking the good season then ; Macross Frontier is from 2008 -_-
(and you're way too greedy here, there's no way the artists can do that on EVE, way too hard...)

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:45:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Sylai Leonidas
I want this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlAsSyDAWR8 on my Harpy :)
Seriously though the missiles really dont need a launcher per se just have tubes like a WWII sub or have tubes like a modern day ICBM based sub platform. They could have sliding panels with tubes. But I whole heartly agree to have a salvo of missiles not the 1 missile effect. My only concern would be that the Vid-lag and server lag that would create with that many models flying around.


The reworked blaster bolts, that were on singularity, looked a lot like this.^^

Aphoxema G
PONIES EVERWHERE
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:46:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: Aphoxema G on 21/06/2011 19:54:01
Originally by: Aerieth
I know you'd have to reskin the existing missile boats with "texture" launchers but that can't be that hard. The patchnotes say "The Maller, an Amarr cruiser, has had a dramatic makeover and looks fantastic. Go buy one tomorrow and be the envy of all your friends." how hard would it be to give the Drake a "dramatic make over"?


You could probably just turn the missile launchers into turrets, it would make more sense anyways because a lot of fuel is wasted on turning to face a ship opposite the direction of launch. Also, rocket and torpedoes are supposed to be dumbfiring which requires aligning the launcher to the target somehow. Also, in reality it would give point-defense systems much, much more time to aim at missiles.

Another problem would be that while moving forward and launching a missile to strike someone behind you, your own missile would be at risk of hitting you without careful guidance.

Not least of all, it would justify the use of Hydraulic Bay Thrusters because we all know how important it is for everything in EVE to be completely realistic.

The best part of all, for the developer, is it could take advantage of the new turret system and the only thing they would have to figure out is how to use the missile launcher as an emitter for the missile graphics. Well, of course there's more than that but it saves making a completely new system.

It also might be possible to get away with using one launcher to cover the entire arc by having the missiles stray around the remaining 1~255 degrees.

Annnnd because they already had to add hardpoints for tractor beams and salvagers no more hardpoints would need to be added.

When I get home I'll even make some practical missile turret designs in 3dsmax as an example.

Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:50:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Daesis Wrack
Look at the fanboy buttkissing going on in this thread.

Turrets are about 1-2 meters in size, and EVE is played on a size scale of 1-100 kilometers. We just don't see the turrets. Hell, we rarely see the ships, just brackets.

Please make graphics and usability improvements to brackets and the overview, not something we only see when zoomed in to the point where we're not playing the game. Thanks.


Yes, this is indeed a problem, that we mostly shoot at targets we can't see.

CCP appears to recently have tried to solve the problem by automagically zooming in on the currently selected target. I'm not sure why it happens, but it does happen frequently to me in PVE.

A much less bad solution would be to introduce a new window, called "currently selected target", which shows something like a 250 by 250 pixels zoom-in of only the one ship or one other object that is currently selected (and only if targetted).

Or maybe 250x250 pixels is wrong. Maybe make the size user-selectable (150, 200, 250, 300, 400, 500, 600, 800). But it has to be "live 3D", not just a still image.

Aphoxema G
PONIES EVERWHERE
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:56:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Salpad
CCP appears to recently have tried to solve the problem by automagically zooming in on the currently selected target. I'm not sure why it happens, but it does happen frequently to me in PVE.


When holding your mouse over a targeted ship's image, your camera will set interest to it.

Gripen
Posted - 2011.06.21 20:06:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Devblog
We needed laser recoil for testing purposes and didn't removed it because this requires effort and we thought it would be ok as it is.

Tags: CCP, Excellence

Managalar
Gallente
PREMM Technologies
TRE GAFFEL
Posted - 2011.06.21 20:08:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: skye orionis
indeed keep the art department doing artsy things, missile launchers and drone deploying would be nice, but having improved weapons fire, how about working on weapon hits. Weapons hitting another ship tend to all hit in exactly the same boring place every time...

Weapons fire checklist:
* Hit multiple spots on the hull
* Visible shield interaction on ships with shields, the weapons fire should stop just outside the hull and deliver a nice flash of shield energy (blue when the shields are full and fading to red when the shields are about to go)
* Missed shots shouldn't look like they hit
* Autocannons and pulse lasers should strafe across the targets hull

Then of course... it would be great if the art people could come up with a way to visibly show armour damage. (And while I personally will be disabling CQ for immersion reasons, I'm sure it would be nice to bask in the glow of your burning ship from the hangar observation balcony, after you dock with a sliver of structure left)


This! Markedly, all the missed shots, they shouldn't look like a direct hit every time.

Friday Ambramotte
Posted - 2011.06.21 20:13:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: skye orionis
* Autocannons and pulse lasers should strafe across the targets hull


Beam lasers should strafe, pulse lasers are specifically designed to fight attenuation and penetrate deeper by hitting the same spot repeatedly.

Managalar
Gallente
PREMM Technologies
TRE GAFFEL
Posted - 2011.06.21 20:15:00 - [89]
 

Also, lense ablation can explian recoil.

TheSpyInCorp
Posted - 2011.06.21 20:16:00 - [90]
 

the icons for missile launchers have always had multiple missile ducts, why not reduce the number of physical hardpoints you need and have each additional fitted launcher fill a missile duct instead? I mean look at all the ducts!
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.


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