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DHB WildCat
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.21 00:59:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: DHB WildCat on 21/06/2011 01:06:18
Well its happened. The unprobable mechanic has been changed making the sniper tactic completely eliminated from eve.

"EVE is a sandbox" - CCP.

Really? Now I never did like the unprobable mechanic but it was the only way you could use the sniping tactic without having a 40 man short range gang on your head in 8 seconds! Yes it only takes a competant prober 8 seconds to get a spot on your snipers and warp his fleet to you at zero.


Now fine keep your unprobable change, I like it but please do not eliminate a tactic from your game. How would we change this?


1) Making probing take longer..... make 30 - 60 seconds to probe a ship. You'll still get the hit but snipers will have time to get in, fire, and get out.... keeping sniping a valid tactic.

2) Keep probing the same but make it so that you cant warp to zero once you get a hit, make it so you land on grid but at random intervals. Making it chance based like ecm, but you can still land on grid and try to tackle the snipers, but have to work for it.

3) Change warp core stabs and sensor damps back to pre nerf. This way a sniper could fit a stab but still lock, and have a chance to survive.

4) Go back to pre nano nerf, snipers could run with webbers at 90% webs and pull range while striking at longer distances.

There has to be a way to keep sniping valid! This is supposed to be an open word. Not Super Smash Brothers. Noone wants pvp were the only tactics is more numbers and close range smash! Please remember that these are also just suggestions and I am open to hearing all possibilities to help snipers!


As it will stand tomarrow, if you try to snipe as a tactic, a covert ops will have you scanned down, and have his gang in warp to your position before you can even align full speed to warp out.


Please CCP, do not kill the snipers of EVE.

Wild

Jerry Pepridge
Posted - 2011.06.21 01:09:00 - [2]
 

Please refrain from personal attacks. Spitfire

Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.06.21 01:23:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Jerry Pepridge
Please refrain from personal attacks. Spitfire



ugh

While I sure as **** don't agree with DHB's viewpoint, he is legit.

Da Gooch
Posted - 2011.06.21 01:30:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Jerry Pepridge
Please refrain from personal attacks. Spitfire



ok boss, let me guess, you live in sov 0.0, lowsec or carbear sec? clearly you have no idea so stfu thanks.

Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2011.06.21 01:34:00 - [5]
 

Frankly, its about time that the 'unprobable' mechanic got whacked.

Difficult to probe is fine, but impossible with fully maxed out skills, implants and gear is wrong.


Frankly the problem with the new probing is that it is horribly imbalanced between probing ships in open space (you only catch the absolutely oblivious thanks to probes being on scanner) and the instant receive-bacon when having preset probes around a predetermined combat zone.

That said, I dont think any of your ideas are particularly appealing.

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.06.21 01:37:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Da Gooch
Originally by: Jerry Pepridge
Please refrain from personal attacks. Spitfire



ok boss, let me guess, you live in sov 0.0, lowsec or carbear sec? clearly you have no idea so stfu thanks.
I'm siding with DHB here. While I'm not exactly against the idea of keeping the carebears probable (though it does IMO push it past the point of being reasonable to make isk in lowsec, which means fewer bears, which means fewer bear griefers, and fewer targets for pewpew all around) the way sniping and on-grid probing currently works is very much broken, making it useless to use proper sniping ships. IMO the quickest and easiest way to fix this is simply to disable on-grid warping, or changing the warp to distance from 150 to 250, but DHBs ideas do have merit.

Da Gooch
Posted - 2011.06.21 01:44:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Lilith Velkor
Frankly, its about time that the 'unprobable' mechanic got whacked.

Difficult to probe is fine, but impossible with fully maxed out skills, implants and gear is wrong.


Frankly the problem with the new probing is that it is horribly imbalanced between probing ships in open space (you only catch the absolutely oblivious thanks to probes being on scanner) and the instant receive-bacon when having preset probes around a predetermined combat zone.

That said, I dont think any of your ideas are particularly appealing.


Yes because spending over 2bil on a faction fit tengu and over half a bill on implants not to mention maxing skills SHOULD allow a half scrub prober to find you, ok.. you have a valid point.

Frau Klaps
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.21 01:46:00 - [8]
 

What DHB probably ought to have mentioned is that BE use these tactics to whittle away at large fleets and there is nothing to stop the opposition having probes out ready on the gate or celestial they are at... as soon as snipers appear on grid they can have a warp to result (or timed well, BEFORE they even appear on grid).

This is why it's broken as it completely removes a legitimate tactic for engaging larger numbers.

Not every concern is a whine from 0.0 carebears who have got settled into their unprobeable fits or people that just want their risk free links running without nannying Rolling Eyes

Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2011.06.21 01:51:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 21/06/2011 01:59:40

Originally by: Cambarus
(though it does IMO push it past the point of being reasonable to make isk in lowsec, which means fewer bears, which means fewer bear griefers, and fewer targets for pewpew all around)



Well, it should still remain difficult, i.e. I'd not expect my main with mediocre probing skills to grab a 'stealth' T3 easily. The fully skilled prober alt however should have success.

Anyway, lowsec missioners mostly rely on the ages old technique of watching scanner, so not much changing for them I guess.

Hits mostly the broken T3 off-grid gangbooster alts.

Originally by: Cambarus

IMO the quickest and easiest way to fix this is simply to disable on-grid warping, or changing the warp to distance from 150 to 250, but DHBs ideas do have merit.


Disabling on-grid warping would push balance in the complete opposite direction, not what is needed either.

Extending the warp-to range sounds like an idea, but with slingshotting a warp-to-distance that will probably not work out either.


Originally by: Da Gooch
Yes because spending over 2bil on a faction fit tengu and over half a bill on implants not to mention maxing skills SHOULD allow a half scrub prober to find you, ok.. you have a valid point.


Yea, you will have to watch the scanner for probes every 5 minutes. The horror.

And dont make it sound like you needed any expensive gear to make a perfectly viable ninja Tengu, could be done with plain t2 / meta4 gear.

Da Gooch
Posted - 2011.06.21 02:07:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Da Gooch on 21/06/2011 02:07:23
5 minutes?? dont know what kind of scanning you do, but i can easily scan a ship in under a minute.

As for not needing a faction fit tengu, no **** sherlock, point is i like my faction mods and at this rate in 2 xpacks time everyone will be jumping into t2 drakes by the looks of things.

I do not consider myself a carebear in any shape or form, i live in 0.0 NPC space purely because it's filled with pvp, we have 3 different alliances in our pocket right now trying to push us out, go figure i actually found the unprobable tengu a form of income in desperate times, yes i could JC to highsec and care, yes i could go to sov space and care, fact is they have totally shafted us NPC people who actually like to make more isk to cover pvp loss's and no im not talking to cover ****ty drake and canes, some of us like to fly other things.

Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2011.06.21 02:14:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Da Gooch

5 minutes?? dont know what kind of scanning you do, but i can easily scan a ship in under a minute.


I hear that claim all the time, and havent seen a single person deliver on it yet.

Either way, watch scanner and you'll be fine, especially in your Tengu that can conveniently stay perma-aligned.

Jerry Pepridge
Posted - 2011.06.21 02:14:00 - [12]
 

My Apologies OP, my guess was way off, i actually read what you said & your talking about sniping which is cool Cool

Originally by: Da Gooch
Edited by: Da Gooch on 21/06/2011 02:07:23
5 minutes?? dont know what kind of scanning you do, but i can easily scan a ship in under a minute.

As for not needing a faction fit tengu, no **** sherlock, point is i like my faction mods and at this rate in 2 xpacks time everyone will be jumping into t2 drakes by the looks of things.

I do not consider myself a carebear in any shape or form, i live in 0.0 NPC space purely because it's filled with pvp, we have 3 different alliances in our pocket right now trying to push us out, go figure i actually found the unprobable tengu a form of income in desperate times, yes i could JC to highsec and care, yes i could go to sov space and care, fact is they have totally shafted us NPC people who actually like to make more isk to cover pvp loss's and no im not talking to cover ****ty drake and canes, some of us like to fly other things.


ITT: Butthurt, NPC 0.0 Scrub, who gets rejected by sov holding alliances due to carebearing & poor KB loses income, forcing him to actually take a risk.

boo hoo carebear, back to level 4's for you. Laughing

Noisrevbus
Posted - 2011.06.21 02:18:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Noisrevbus on 21/06/2011 02:58:16

While possibly cumbersome to implement, wouldn't the best option be to make so you can't score probe hits on things you are on grid with?

It would allow you to leave other, more delicately balanced, features be (and just balance probing with probing).

There's always the issue of off-grid safespot probers getting the best of you too quick, but then you'll at least have the opposing side utilizing a more determined tactic (assuming the main problem would once again be the ease of probing snipers on the fly off an ingate or similar; when these changes are implemented, the way it was when the new probing mechanics first were introduced).

Edit. I have a feeling a may be missing some bits and pieces in the argument, so feel free to explain further (DHB, or whoever else that is taking part in the actual discussion, and is not just trolling).
The OP is making a valid point, regardless of your personal relation and wether he popped you from 250km in the past or not. Troll infestation make the thread hard to follow.

Just throwing it out there for good measure: another way around it could be retailoring the extreme snipers of today to an optimized performance around 150km, as opposed to the numerous 100km options. Perhaps a slightly boring solution though, and i'm mostly ventilating it to point to the problem that there are few things that perform well in the upper 100-150km scale while there are so many different 50-120km options today. It's a thought anyway and another perspective, even if good solutions to existing ranges would obviously be more open-ended and thus better, it is a vastly under-used range that shouldn't be forgotten or left as a gap if we discuss future potential.


Nelson Black
Posted - 2011.06.21 02:25:00 - [14]
 

Collateral damage really. But i'm not going to loose sleep over it. Unscannable tengu farmers and gang boosting alts needed the nerf bat something fierce.

Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
Posted - 2011.06.21 02:34:00 - [15]
 

Look at this DHB wants balls free PvP back.

*nonshocker*

Mutant Caldari
Caldari
Percussive Diplomacy
The Phoenix. Consortium
Posted - 2011.06.21 02:35:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Jerry Pepridge
Originally by: Da Gooch
Edited by: Da Gooch on 21/06/2011 02:07:23
5 minutes?? dont know what kind of scanning you do, but i can easily scan a ship in under a minute.

As for not needing a faction fit tengu, no **** sherlock, point is i like my faction mods and at this rate in 2 xpacks time everyone will be jumping into t2 drakes by the looks of things.

I do not consider myself a carebear in any shape or form, i live in 0.0 NPC space purely because it's filled with pvp, we have 3 different alliances in our pocket right now trying to push us out, go figure i actually found the unprobable tengu a form of income in desperate times, yes i could JC to highsec and care, yes i could go to sov space and care, fact is they have totally shafted us NPC people who actually like to make more isk to cover pvp loss's and no im not talking to cover ****ty drake and canes, some of us like to fly other things.


ITT: Butthurt, NPC 0.0 Scrub, who gets rejected by sov holding alliances due to carebearing & poor KB loses income, forcing him to actually take a risk.

boo hoo carebear, back to Empire level 4's for you. Laughing

Had to add something in there for you to make it more accurate. YARRRR!!

Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2011.06.21 02:41:00 - [17]
 

Asking from another angle, what would possibly be an adequate time to get probe results on sniping ships?

After they are fully aligned and have had time to destroy, lets say 3-4 hostiles? What if they warp to the next snipespot?

Should probing time decrease the longer they stay on the same grid?

Should it possibly decrease each time probes get a hit on the specific ship signature, i.e. dynamically filling the results with individual ships being proped faster each time you get a hit on them?

Da Gooch
Posted - 2011.06.21 02:43:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Da Gooch on 21/06/2011 02:44:20
Originally by: Jerry Pepridge
My Apologies OP, my guess was way off, i actually read what you said & your talking about sniping which is cool Cool

Originally by: Da Gooch
Edited by: Da Gooch on 21/06/2011 02:07:23
5 minutes?? dont know what kind of scanning you do, but i can easily scan a ship in under a minute.

As for not needing a faction fit tengu, no **** sherlock, point is i like my faction mods and at this rate in 2 xpacks time everyone will be jumping into t2 drakes by the looks of things.

I do not consider myself a carebear in any shape or form, i live in 0.0 NPC space purely because it's filled with pvp, we have 3 different alliances in our pocket right now trying to push us out, go figure i actually found the unprobable tengu a form of income in desperate times, yes i could JC to highsec and care, yes i could go to sov space and care, fact is they have totally shafted us NPC people who actually like to make more isk to cover pvp loss's and no im not talking to cover ****ty drake and canes, some of us like to fly other things.


ITT: Butthurt, NPC 0.0 Scrub, who gets rejected by sov holding alliances due to carebearing & poor KB loses income, forcing him to actually take a risk.

boo hoo carebear, back to level 4's for you. Laughing


Log your main or stfu scrub, and i laugh at your claim to being rejected by sov alliances, SOV SPACE IS FULL OF BEARS idiot.

Bask Ilisk
Gallente
Death To Everyone But Us
Posted - 2011.06.21 02:54:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Da Gooch
Log your main or stfu scrub, and i laugh at your claim to being rejected by sov alliances, SOV SPACE IS FULL OF BEARS idiot.

Says the person crying because his faction fit mission tengu is now scannable and you seem to have an issue with 5m sp Drake pilots being able to do the same thing you need a 2b + ship to do.

Da Gooch
Posted - 2011.06.21 02:57:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Da Gooch on 21/06/2011 02:57:45
Originally by: Bask Ilisk
Originally by: Da Gooch
Log your main or stfu scrub, and i laugh at your claim to being rejected by sov alliances, SOV SPACE IS FULL OF BEARS idiot.

Says the person crying because his faction fit mission tengu is now scannable and you seem to have an issue with 5m sp Drake pilots being able to do the same thing you need a 2b + ship to do.



Unlike them people, i have other things to do with my life then watch my drake slowly widdle @ 4's, no thanks, pass.
Besides, they cant do the same, not where i do 4's, they would be dead within minutes or station camped.

Bask Ilisk
Gallente
Death To Everyone But Us
Posted - 2011.06.21 03:01:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Da Gooch
Edited by: Da Gooch on 21/06/2011 02:57:45
Originally by: Bask Ilisk
Originally by: Da Gooch
Log your main or stfu scrub, and i laugh at your claim to being rejected by sov alliances, SOV SPACE IS FULL OF BEARS idiot.

Says the person crying because his faction fit mission tengu is now scannable and you seem to have an issue with 5m sp Drake pilots being able to do the same thing you need a 2b + ship to do.



Unlike them people, i have other things to do with my life then watch my drake slowly widdle @ 4's, no thanks, pass.
Besides, they cant do the same, not where i do 4's, they would be dead within minutes or station camped.

You sound pretty incompetent to me. Glad to see the crutch kicked from underneath you. Try 0.0 how it is meant to be.

Also, you smacked about posting with your main. How does a 1 day old character fly a Tengu?

Da Gooch
Security Status 0.0
Center for Advanced Studies [CAS] from 2011.06.21 01:16 to this day

I suggest you learn a couple of things.

1. D-Scan
2. Scouting
3. Unprobeable Tengu's aren't that efficient anyway so try something more suited to the job, not that you have a choice now anyway.

Da Gooch
Posted - 2011.06.21 03:04:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Da Gooch on 21/06/2011 03:04:41
Originally by: Bask Ilisk
Originally by: Da Gooch
Edited by: Da Gooch on 21/06/2011 02:57:45
Originally by: Bask Ilisk
Originally by: Da Gooch
Log your main or stfu scrub, and i laugh at your claim to being rejected by sov alliances, SOV SPACE IS FULL OF BEARS idiot.

Says the person crying because his faction fit mission tengu is now scannable and you seem to have an issue with 5m sp Drake pilots being able to do the same thing you need a 2b + ship to do.



Unlike them people, i have other things to do with my life then watch my drake slowly widdle @ 4's, no thanks, pass.
Besides, they cant do the same, not where i do 4's, they would be dead within minutes or station camped.

You sound pretty incompetent to me. Glad to see the crutch kicked from underneath you. Try 0.0 how it is meant to be.

Also, you smacked about posting with your main. How does a 1 day old character fly a Tengu?

Da Gooch
Security Status 0.0
Center for Advanced Studies [CAS] from 2011.06.21 01:16 to this day

I suggest you learn a couple of things.

1. D-Scan
2. Scouting
3. Unprobeable Tengu's aren't that efficient anyway so try something more suited to the job, not that you have a choice now anyway.



Explain how unprobable tengu's are not very efficient in a 0.0 npc system with 3 alliances red to ours? do explain a better alternative, im all ****ing ears bro.
It's easy for idiots like yourself to sit there and smack about this being a /great change, when in reality you probobly live in empire or in NC scumland, pick one, both suck.

DHB WildCat
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.21 03:04:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Patient 2428190
Look at this DHB wants balls free PvP back.

*nonshocker*


How is this balls free? So sniping is not a tactic that should be allowed in eve? Abbadon and maelstrom fleets only? No alternatives?

Also ... ways to kill snipers with skill and not insta warp probes.

1) tacklers - inties go over 5k/sec use them
2) stealth snipes, can nab warp in points, may take 3-4 warp in but then you'll have a sling on the snipers fast.
3) Other / more snipers

Just to name 3.

I thought this was a "sandbox"

On the other hand if you can think of anyway now to use the "sniping" tactic at all, I would truely love to hear it!

Wild

Jerry Pepridge
Posted - 2011.06.21 03:13:00 - [24]
 

@NPC 0.0 scrub:

1) Make a safe
2) Fit an ordinary cloak
3) drop the unprobable rubbish, fit gank/tank
4) Carebear away aligned to said safe
5) When local spikes or your intel channel flahes, warp to safe & cloak.

you will make more money doing this, but **** you may have to actually pay attention Laughing

delicious carebear tears ITT.

Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
Posted - 2011.06.21 03:23:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: DHB WildCat

How is this balls free? So sniping is not a tactic that should be allowed in eve? Abbadon and maelstrom fleets only? No alternatives?

Also ... ways to kill snipers with skill and not insta warp probes.

1) tacklers - inties go over 5k/sec use them
2) stealth snipes, can nab warp in points, may take 3-4 warp in but then you'll have a sling on the snipers fast.
3) Other / more snipers

Just to name 3.

I thought this was a "sandbox"

On the other hand if you can think of anyway now to use the "sniping" tactic at all, I would truely love to hear it!

Wild


Maintain range from enemies at ~120km. Use your forces to bubble/tackle them where they are, so even if they did get a warp in,they aren't coming out of the bubble easily.

The probing changes have implications past sniping. Unprobable T3s basically turn mission running into a solo instances and nearly removing risk/reward in the process, T3s can sit in good safespots nearly invincible to being found, while providing the best set of ganglink bonuses in the game.

Though you might be on to something. I should just whine like a ***** on the forums instead. How's the falcon alt these days?

Turkatron
United Mining And Distribution
Posted - 2011.06.21 03:33:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: DHB WildCat
Originally by: Patient 2428190
Look at this DHB wants balls free PvP back.

*nonshocker*


How is this balls free?


Balls free because the targets you pick are generally not capable (mentally/physically) of countering your tacticts. However, I'm not suggesting they are bad tactics. YARRRR!!

Originally by: DHB WildCat
So sniping is not a tactic that should be allowed in eve? Abbadon and maelstrom fleets only? No alternatives?


You can still snipe, you just can't sit there aligned for 5min till an inty/dram/cloaky/etc that you can't pop gets too close.

Originally by: DHB WildCat
Also ... ways to kill snipers with skill and not insta warp probes.

1) tacklers - inties go over 5k/sec use them
2) stealth snipes, can nab warp in points, may take 3-4 warp in but then you'll have a sling on the snipers fast.
3) Other / more snipers

Just to name 3.



I agree with you here but most of the whiners can't figure this out, aren't motivated, not enough numbers, etc.

Originally by: DHB WildCat
I thought this was a "sandbox"

On the other hand if you can think of anyway now to use the "sniping" tactic at all, I would truely love to hear it!

Wild


Use cloaky scouts as warp-ins, warp in pop something, warp out... repeat.
Not as easy, not as fun, more risky, less targets since you have to alpha strike.
However, show me a definition of "sniping" that involves taking many shots at a single target without changing locations.

CCP at one point defended unprobable ships as an acceptable tactic and equated it to cloaking.
This change is proof that if you get enough people to ***** about it they may eventually change it.
Or... maybe they only do that when it favors the less skilled hello kitty online players?

BeachParty
Caldari
Semi Precious
Posted - 2011.06.21 04:25:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: BeachParty on 21/06/2011 04:30:50
You just want to solo s*** with no risk. The whole "there dropping probes on me" thing isn't a real threat unless your in a wh. Looking at your recommendations it appears you want to passively PVP with minimal exposure to your assets. I on the other hand want to kill you. So no GrandPA.

Frau Klaps
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.21 04:29:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: BeachParty
The whole "there dropping probes on me" thing isn't a real threat unless your in a wh.


Except the part where it's easy to get a tackle on anything probeable within a couple of seconds of it coming out of warp if you are defending.

BeachParty
Caldari
Semi Precious
Posted - 2011.06.21 04:36:00 - [29]
 

And your point is? What is killing this game is the lack of good old fashion killing. CCP need to address this ASAP!

Frau Klaps
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.21 04:38:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: BeachParty
And your point is? What is killing this game is the lack of good old fashion killing. CCP need to address this ASAP!

I find this funny from an ECM *****. trololololololooololo


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