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Rayce Farelle
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2011.06.20 20:21:00 - [1]
 

I understand that this may be going quite far about this saga but i was curious as to the legal standing of the rigged Final and the "metagaming" throughout.

Now... From what i have found out, is that alot of what is offically complainable, has to have breached EVE's (CCPs) code of conduct for the individual tournament or specific rules were broken UNLESS the tournament rules do not cover the offending actions, and then it is reserved back to the specific, Gambling or Fraud acts of each particular country.

For the UK, both the Gambling ACT of 2005 and the Fraud ACT of 2006, cover gaming , gambling and competitions. It is stated that if there is a prize competition on the outcome of a certain event, then match fixing laws should be enabled. Now what i want to know is there a case to say that term-of service was violated or whether e-sports like this one with real prizes are covered by any law.

Discuss....

Mr Spice
Posted - 2011.06.20 20:23:00 - [2]
 


Lol **** off!

Edenmain
Euphoria Released
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.20 20:30:00 - [3]
 



Im sure sure that the UK gambling act only refers to the UK... Not sure how much weight it holds in the outer reaches of the universe?

Jull Mariner
Eve Engineering Operations
Eve Engineering
Posted - 2011.06.20 20:37:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Edenmain


Im sure sure that the UK gambling act only refers to the UK... Not sure how much weight it holds in the outer reaches of the universe?


True Cool

Tech two
UK1 Zero
Posted - 2011.06.20 20:44:00 - [5]
 

Oh my god.

There are some people out there so sad and so upset by all this that they are searching for any kind of way to get some 'justice'.

Justice for what? everyone else lost, accept it and get a life!

Rayce Farelle
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2011.06.20 20:46:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Rayce Farelle on 20/06/2011 20:49:30
I have nothing in particular against the competitors of Hydra and Outbreak. and applaud their use of metagaming, but the open use of fixing matches (especially the final- where real on-earth, prizes were given for the outcome of the match) could be questioned as it was an official tournament, with real prizes/money being made/lost by various parties.

i am trying to get this thread as a discussion on any legal implications on the rigging of the matches (due to real prizes etc) not the "e-honour" side of the question

Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.20 20:55:00 - [7]
 

Paging Joe Space

Rayce Farelle
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2011.06.20 20:59:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Tech two
Oh my god.

There are some people out there so sad and so upset by all this that they are searching for any kind of way to get some 'justice'.

Justice for what? everyone else lost, accept it and get a life!


Im not particularly sad or upset that this happened- as i wasnt there and probably never be good enough to enter at all. I was just asking whether there would be any RL issues with this sort of thing, because i care about the game, and the health of not only the future of the tournament, but off CCP aswell. Troll if you like, all i was trying to do was get a decent discussion up and going, about somthing other the "injustice" and "e-honour" of it all, and look at it from a different perspective. is that so bad?

Chapelle
Posted - 2011.06.20 21:08:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Chapelle on 20/06/2011 21:08:55
You would have to file a complaint with your countries police and if any law is applicable and one or more of the participants/perpetrators is an inhabitant of said country then the laws will apply.

Though the more likely outcome is that the whole thing would be dismissed by the police because they don't have the resources to handle it and would not understand what the complaint is about.

Randomize All
Posted - 2011.06.20 21:49:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Rayce Farelle
I understand that this may be going quite far about this saga but i was curious as to the legal standing of the rigged Final and the "metagaming" throughout.

Now... From what i have found out, is that alot of what is offically complainable, has to have breached EVE's (CCPs) code of conduct for the individual tournament or specific rules were broken UNLESS the tournament rules do not cover the offending actions, and then it is reserved back to the specific, Gambling or Fraud acts of each particular country.

For the UK, both the Gambling ACT of 2005 and the Fraud ACT of 2006, cover gaming , gambling and competitions. It is stated that if there is a prize competition on the outcome of a certain event, then match fixing laws should be enabled. Now what i want to know is there a case to say that term-of service was violated or whether e-sports like this one with real prizes are covered by any law.

Discuss....


better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth an remove all doubt
seems you spent 5 minutes of fruit machine emptier site and now you're a lawyer.
this will end neither badly nor well
it will just end

Rayce Farelle
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2011.06.20 22:12:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Randomize All
Originally by: Rayce Farelle
I understand that this may be going quite far about this saga but i was curious as to the legal standing of the rigged Final and the "metagaming" throughout.

Now... From what i have found out, is that alot of what is offically complainable, has to have breached EVE's (CCPs) code of conduct for the individual tournament or specific rules were broken UNLESS the tournament rules do not cover the offending actions, and then it is reserved back to the specific, Gambling or Fraud acts of each particular country.

For the UK, both the Gambling ACT of 2005 and the Fraud ACT of 2006, cover gaming , gambling and competitions. It is stated that if there is a prize competition on the outcome of a certain event, then match fixing laws should be enabled. Now what i want to know is there a case to say that term-of service was violated or whether e-sports like this one with real prizes are covered by any law.

Discuss....


better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth an remove all doubt
seems you spent 5 minutes of fruit machine emptier site and now you're a lawyer.
this will end neither badly nor well
it will just end


I never professed to be a lawyer, i am just trying to provoke conversation. If people believe im a idiot then fair enough, but i have tryed to put a different spin on it to see what people will think. If idiots are the ones, trying to get a discussion going, then im surprised that we even have a language at all.

JEK3
Posted - 2011.06.20 22:29:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: JEK3 on 20/06/2011 22:34:13
Edited by: JEK3 on 20/06/2011 22:33:36
Edited by: JEK3 on 20/06/2011 22:30:56
Originally by: Rayce Farelle
I understand that this may be going quite far about this saga but i was curious as to the legal standing of the rigged Final and the "metagaming" throughout.

Now... From what i have found out, is that alot of what is offically complainable, has to have breached EVE's (CCPs) code of conduct for the individual tournament or specific rules were broken UNLESS the tournament rules do not cover the offending actions, and then it is reserved back to the specific, Gambling or Fraud acts of each particular country.

For the UK, both the Gambling ACT of 2005 and the Fraud ACT of 2006, cover gaming , gambling and competitions. It is stated that if there is a prize competition on the outcome of a certain event, then match fixing laws should be enabled. Now what i want to know is there a case to say that term-of service was violated or whether e-sports like this one with real prizes are covered by any law.

Discuss....


I saw many stupid and childish answers, to what under a legal perspective is a very legit and interesting question.
First of all, my view is thet UK laws aren't the ones to look at in this case. We should most probably look at Iceland's laws. I'm not aware of them, but they probably aren't very different from UK's ones in this case. Anyway, I'm almost sure in Iceland too there are some laws that are regulating competitions and that are going against fixing matches.
What is to be considered first is the RL damage coming from fixing this competition's result. Thanks to the plex system, ISK are now convertible in "real money", therefore the damage is real and so are all the bets. The prizes offered by the sponsor are also real and convertible in real money. As real money is involved (and that's the case), real laws are kicking in. A fixing in the attibution of the prizes (and a fixing of the tournament result is that) can for sure be sued.
If somebody is going to sue hydra for the fixing... ..well, that somebody could well win and the judge would kick hydra's ass big time. The position of CCP is not so clear, but of course something like saying "bribery (or metagaming)is in the rules of the tournament" would not make a judge very happy, as bribery cannot be tolerated when real money is involved. CCP should have took actions against the briberies. Their failure to do so (and eventually to report those briberies to a legit authority if they didn't) probably puts them in a very unconfortable position (but I'm not the one that has to judge this).
I know something about laws, but I want to make clear I am not a lawyer. I'd like to hear the views of a legit lawyer (maybe from Iceland). Anyway I don't think the view of a legit lawyer would diffeer much from mine.


Cheers

JEK3

Saia Tae Arragosa
Posted - 2011.06.20 22:34:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: JEK3
Edited by: JEK3 on 20/06/2011 22:30:56
Originally by: Rayce Farelle
I understand that this may be going quite far about this saga but i was curious as to the legal standing of the rigged Final and the "metagaming" throughout.

Now... From what i have found out, is that alot of what is offically complainable, has to have breached EVE's (CCPs) code of conduct for the individual tournament or specific rules were broken UNLESS the tournament rules do not cover the offending actions, and then it is reserved back to the specific, Gambling or Fraud acts of each particular country.

For the UK, both the Gambling ACT of 2005 and the Fraud ACT of 2006, cover gaming , gambling and competitions. It is stated that if there is a prize competition on the outcome of a certain event, then match fixing laws should be enabled. Now what i want to know is there a case to say that term-of service was violated or whether e-sports like this one with real prizes are covered by any law.

Discuss....


I saw many stupid and childish answers, to what under a legal perspective is a very legit and interesting question.
First of all, my view is thet UK laws aren't the ones to look at in this case. We should most probably look at Iceland's laws. I'm not aware of them, but they probably aren't very different from UK's ones in this case. Anyway, I'm almost sure in Iceland too there are some laws that are regulating competitions and that are going against fixing matches.
What is to be considered first is the RL damage coming from fixing this competition's result. Thanks to the plex system, ISK are now convertible in "real money", therefore the damage is real and so are all the bets. The prizes offered by the sponsor are also real and convertible in real money. As real money is involved (and that's the case), real laws are kicking in. A fixing in the attibution of the prizes (and a fixing of the tournament result is that) can for sure be sued.
If somebody is going to sue hydra for the fixing... ..well, that somebody could well win and the judge would kick hydra's ass big time. The position of CCP is not so clear, but of course something like saying "bribery (or metagaming)is in the rules of the tournament" would not make a judge very happy, as bribery cannot be tolerated when real money is involved. CCP should have took actions against the briberies. Their failure to do so (and eventually to report those briberies to a legit authority if they didn't) probably puts them in a very unconfortable position (but I can't judge that...).
I know something about laws, but I want to make clear I am not a lawyer. I'd like to hear the views of a legit lawyer (maybe from Iceland). Anyway I don't think the view of a legit lawyer would diffeer much from mine.


Cheers

JEK3


It's aginst the forum toss for you to post a reponse to your own thread with an alt BTW.

JEK3
Posted - 2011.06.20 22:35:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: JEK3 on 20/06/2011 22:36:13
Originally by: Saia Tae Arragosa
Originally by: JEK3
Edited by: JEK3 on 20/06/2011 22:30:56
Originally by: Rayce Farelle
I understand that this may be going quite far about this saga but i was curious as to the legal standing of the rigged Final and the "metagaming" throughout.

Now... From what i have found out, is that alot of what is offically complainable, has to have breached EVE's (CCPs) code of conduct for the individual tournament or specific rules were broken UNLESS the tournament rules do not cover the offending actions, and then it is reserved back to the specific, Gambling or Fraud acts of each particular country.

I'm not an alt, and this is my main account.
If you don't believe me, I grant to CCP the permission to CCP to check that and confirm it to you.
For the UK, both the Gambling ACT of 2005 and the Fraud ACT of 2006, cover gaming , gambling and competitions. It is stated that if there is a prize competition on the outcome of a certain event, then match fixing laws should be enabled. Now what i want to know is there a case to say that term-of service was violated or whether e-sports like this one with real prizes are covered by any law.

Discuss....


I saw many stupid and childish answers, to what under a legal perspective is a very legit and interesting question.
First of all, my view is thet UK laws aren't the ones to look at in this case. We should most probably look at Iceland's laws. I'm not aware of them, but they probably aren't very different from UK's ones in this case. Anyway, I'm almost sure in Iceland too there are some laws that are regulating competitions and that are going against fixing matches.
What is to be considered first is the RL damage coming from fixing this competition's result. Thanks to the plex system, ISK are now convertible in "real money", therefore the damage is real and so are all the bets. The prizes offered by the sponsor are also real and convertible in real money. As real money is involved (and that's the case), real laws are kicking in. A fixing in the attibution of the prizes (and a fixing of the tournament result is that) can for sure be sued.
If somebody is going to sue hydra for the fixing... ..well, that somebody could well win and the judge would kick hydra's ass big time. The position of CCP is not so clear, but of course something like saying "bribery (or metagaming)is in the rules of the tournament" would not make a judge very happy, as bribery cannot be tolerated when real money is involved. CCP should have took actions against the briberies. Their failure to do so (and eventually to report those briberies to a legit authority if they didn't) probably puts them in a very unconfortable position (but I can't judge that...).
I know something about laws, but I want to make clear I am not a lawyer. I'd like to hear the views of a legit lawyer (maybe from Iceland). Anyway I don't think the view of a legit lawyer would diffeer much from mine.


Cheers

JEK3


It's aginst the forum toss for you to post a reponse to your own thread with an alt BTW.


It's not an alt, and I give CCP the permission to check that and confirm it to you.

Rayce Farelle
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2011.06.20 22:49:00 - [15]
 

Thanks for a honest answer jek3. To be honest i agree with you, and undoubtably there would be so many nuances to this sort of thing that it would take so much money and time, that it could be not even worth it. I just hope if the situation similar to arise again, that the right lawyers and admin staff, know what exactly is allowed and not. I do sincerely hope that the sponsors and prize winners havent been affected to much by this, and that there is no large legal wrangling over our internet spaceships. Thanks for your insights o7

ekkertnafnlaust
Crimson Empire.
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.06.21 00:04:00 - [16]
 

more on the funny note....... in iceland money won in competitions/lotterys are taxable unless its one of the few excluded.
so i say let the icelandic coverment take their prices to cover the tax they owe and the fine for not paying in the first place :)

ohh and im joking ofc (the taxes are real though)

ThrashPower
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.21 04:44:00 - [17]
 

suing ccp cuz you lost a bet really?

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.06.21 05:18:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: ekkertnafnlaust
more on the funny note....... in iceland money won in competitions/lotterys are taxable unless its one of the few excluded.
so i say let the icelandic coverment take their prices to cover the tax they owe and the fine for not paying in the first place :)

ohh and im joking ofc (the taxes are real though)


Still taxation of winnings is an interesting issue. But aren't there minimum amounts to be subject to any such tax? Like other posters, I wouldn't have a clue about Iceland's taxation laws, but I can't remember prizes of only a few grand being taxed in any country I am more aware of.

So unless anyone who actually knows tax law cares to chime in, I think it's far more likely for laws covering competitions and gambling to apply, if anyone had enough bad taste to sue over tourney metagaming.

The only thing that really troubles me is people watching alliance tournaments and being led to believe by CCP's marketing that they're real e-sports competitions. Perhaps CCP should be more upfront about metagaming in their tournament marketing. Yes, they talk about it on Eve TV, but I've yet to see mention of the realities of the tournaments in their marketing material.

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2011.06.21 05:29:00 - [19]
 

CCP can create whatever rules they wish for their virtual world. Metagaming is legal and you all agreed to that when accepting the EULA. Since only legal mechanics (such as metagaming) were used by the players and CCP did not fix the match, I don't see the basis for a legal case.

Also, the prizes for the teams were virtual, weren't they? If you read the EULA you'll know that all your in-game assets are still the property of CCP.

What might get a bit trickier are the RL items given to players guessing winners...

Rayce Farelle
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2011.06.21 13:11:00 - [20]
 

You could also say that due to the match being fixed by Hydra/Outbreak and NOT CCP- the rl competition was a individual action. i.e. it was a prediction on that outcome in which it was rigged by the competitors and not the organisers- which might mean some difference under gambling laws. But agreed, i think it would be Iceland's laws that would apply- if at all, but i dont think CCP has to include realities on metagaming as it wasnt stipulated in the rules.

And yes, i did lose a rather large bet, that would be considered a very large sum of isk for some people, but im too long in the tooth of eve to care, because hey, isk isnt as valuable as it once was. So meh.

Rayce

Popsikle
Minmatar
Caffeine Commodities Company
Posted - 2011.06.21 13:20:00 - [21]
 

1.) you are F'in ******ed its a video game.
2.) its a video game
3.) its a video game


And about the whole ISK for Real money thing, there is no LEGAL way to convert ISK to Real Money. You can convert Real money to ISK but its a one way street.


Randomize All
Posted - 2011.06.21 13:35:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Aineko Macx
If you read the EULA you'll know that all your in-game assets are still the property of CCP.

This being the final trump card of the matter.

But even if it wasn't, if the OP is in the UK, he'll be aware of something we have here called a Village Fete. They happen up and down the country and often there is a thing called a Tombola. The Great British public for hundreds of years has enjoyed these family oriented days, drinking cider and lemonade, talking and laughing with friends, buying raffle tickets for the tombola and perhaps winning a delicious hamper of cheeses or selection of meats from the local butcher.

I've never seen a ****ing taxman turn up and start belting out about gambling laws. But then again I've never seen a village fete with a forum where any bundle of sticks can get on a soap box and start talking nonsense. Perhaps we need a forum equivalent of these bad boys.

Chapelle
Posted - 2011.06.21 13:38:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Toovhon
Originally by: ekkertnafnlaust
more on the funny note....... in iceland money won in competitions/lotterys are taxable unless its one of the few excluded.
so i say let the icelandic coverment take their prices to cover the tax they owe and the fine for not paying in the first place :)

ohh and im joking ofc (the taxes are real though)


Still taxation of winnings is an interesting issue. But aren't there minimum amounts to be subject to any such tax? Like other posters, I wouldn't have a clue about Iceland's taxation laws, but I can't remember prizes of only a few grand being taxed in any country I am more aware of.

So unless anyone who actually knows tax law cares to chime in, I think it's far more likely for laws covering competitions and gambling to apply, if anyone had enough bad taste to sue over tourney metagaming.

The only thing that really troubles me is people watching alliance tournaments and being led to believe by CCP's marketing that they're real e-sports competitions. Perhaps CCP should be more upfront about metagaming in their tournament marketing. Yes, they talk about it on Eve TV, but I've yet to see mention of the realities of the tournaments in their marketing material.


Norway's tax law 5-50 says that "random" income above the value of NOK 10000 ($1785) is subject to taxation unless it is from "Norsk Tipping AS", what you will have to discuss is what value (if any) property in an online community has. However since CCP retains all rights to it's own product it can be argued that we do not really own anything of what we acquire in EVE. Therefore the whole argument might be moot.

Hatsumi Kobayashi
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.21 13:41:00 - [24]
 

Belated congratulations, HYDRA. I'm not sure which is coolest, winning with two teams or generating this amount of tears.

I love you.

Loken Therakir
Posted - 2011.06.21 14:00:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Loken Therakir on 21/06/2011 14:00:34
A lot of dumbasses in here yelling at OP to stop whining. How about learning some reading comprehension?

On topic:
As I see it the only possible thing that could be a problem is, as stated by others, the sponsored items since their have direct, real-life worth and is not covered by any ToS or EULA or whatever to stay under the ownership of CCP (although that would be hilarious weird - running with a graphics card owned by CCP!). This would be hot water if anyone were enough of a spoilsport to bring it up in a legal setting.
However! Are we really talking about betting here? Sure, prizes were given away, but no money on your side moved to CCP to be eligible for these prizes. I'm not a lawyer, but I think it could be argued that it is not covered by gambling laws at all.

Chapelle
Posted - 2011.06.21 14:04:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Chapelle on 21/06/2011 14:08:41
Edited by: Chapelle on 21/06/2011 14:05:44
Originally by: Loken Therakir
Edited by: Loken Therakir on 21/06/2011 14:00:34
A lot of dumbasses in here yelling at OP to stop whining. How about learning some reading comprehension?

On topic:
As I see it the only possible thing that could be a problem is, as stated by others, the sponsored items since their have direct, real-life worth and is not covered by any ToS or EULA or whatever to stay under the ownership of CCP (although that would be hilarious weird - running with a graphics card owned by CCP!). This would be hot water if anyone were enough of a spoilsport to bring it up in a legal setting.
However! Are we really talking about betting here? Sure, prizes were given away, but no money on your side moved to CCP to be eligible for these prizes. I'm not a lawyer, but I think it could be argued that it is not covered by gambling laws at all.


I forgot about the prizes for those competitions, you are entirely correct about them. Tax laws will apply in most countries in both Europe and in the US.

I was musing about the "value" of 170 billion and those BPC's.

As for gambling laws or not, it comes down to how a lawyer interpret the laws and if a judge agrees with him. Has there been a transaction? Some would say our monthly subscription fees would count as such.

Randomize All
Posted - 2011.06.21 14:22:00 - [27]
 

Christ.

Just phone the ****ing police will ya?
Can you do that?
Let us know how it goes.

Loken Therakir
Posted - 2011.06.21 14:23:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Chapelle
Has there been a transaction? Some would say our monthly subscription fees would count as such.



Forgot about monthly transaction. However, I think any half-competent lawyer could easily show that the monthly transaction is primarily for other benefits than gambling and that being able to cast a bet is a fringe side-effect not directly thought of by neither seller nor buyer upon the time of the transaction. Thus the buyer of the subscription will have a hard time proving that he made the transaction in good faith specifically for entering a bet.

Loken Therakir
Posted - 2011.06.21 14:26:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Loken Therakir on 21/06/2011 14:26:08
Originally by: Randomize All
Christ.

Just phone the ****ing police will ya?
Can you do that?
Let us know how it goes.


I think you will find that most posts are to the effect of _not_ wanting this brought up with the police. Also, there is good reason to believe this would be a civil case, which mean you would have to sue CCP or HYDRA (lol) to find out how it would hold up in court. Good luck finding somebody wanting to do that just to "find out how it would hold up" instead of speculating.

Fumb Duck
Awww Diddums..
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2011.06.21 14:53:00 - [30]
 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Whiney Btch eve community...

GET A FKIN LIFE!!!
ITS A GAME!

That is all and please if you are still upset send me your moms phone number and any semi nekkid pics... also I'm not too fussy


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