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CCP Zymurgist


Gallente
C C P
Posted - 2011.06.20 15:50:00 - [1]
 

CCP Curt knows you love big technical blogs and brings us a great dev blog on CarbonIO and how we are improving EVE on the network level.

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.06.20 16:02:00 - [2]
 

Looking forward to the read. First

Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.20 16:22:00 - [3]
 

CCP CURT,
01010111011010010110110001101100
00100000011110010110111101110101
00100000011011010110000101110010
01110010011110010010000001101101
0110010100111111

Seriously nice blog and some great info. And enough graphs to appease my graph-throne <3

Elaron
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.06.20 16:22:00 - [4]
 

Awesome dev blog. I can't wait to see the results when the tech benefits of CarbonIO/BlueNet really start to be taken advantage of.

Ager Agemo
Caldari
Care Factor
Posted - 2011.06.20 16:28:00 - [5]
 

so basically EVE is finally getting truely multithreated on the server side, sweet. any chance the code will ever become fully multithreated? and what about this being added on the client?

Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.06.20 16:28:00 - [6]
 

Confirming this went way over my head but was hella awesome! Surprised

Kandro Ashtear
Posted - 2011.06.20 16:31:00 - [7]
 

I'm going to preface this post with a disclaimer. I've never used python, never used any programming in the massive scale that you have, and many people here, especially CCP employee's, are much smarter than I.

I have what some would consider a basic question... why python? I've heard complaints about it left right and center, but people still use it.

Why not make all of the software in C++ or any of the other languages out there? What does python offer that C++ doesn't or even Visual C#?

Thought I'd start the flame war and my education.

Miss Modus
Posted - 2011.06.20 16:33:00 - [8]
 

What was happening at the four peaks of the CPU% per user graph where the CarbonIO spiked much higher than the original StacklessIO?

Abramul
Gallente
StarFleet Enterprises
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.06.20 16:35:00 - [9]
 

And here we were, thinking Incarna would hurt performance. Nice work!

Should be interesting to see how much this affects large battles.

GateScout
Posted - 2011.06.20 16:38:00 - [10]
 

Now that's just cool! Great dev blog!

Thanks for giving us a peek inside.

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.20 16:41:00 - [11]
 

Ooooh...two tech pron Dev blogs in less than 7 days! I'll have to read this one again after my brain again re-solidifies, but the first read through was exciting. Can't wait to see what this does to TQ in the wild.

Ralitge boyter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.20 16:42:00 - [12]
 

Looking good finally moving away from Python with code that does not "have" to be in python. I have nothing against python in and of it self but for much of the work that you guys have it do it simply is not the best suited. Using C++ and optimizing the hell out of it will help a lot. Smile

Now the only thing left is to see about getting stackless to efficiently work on multiple cores Very Happy if you guys can manage that EVE will finally be able to deal with a 10k fleet battle without flinching or having your poor hamsters going on strike while demanding Segways. Razz

Hexxx
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.20 16:44:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Kandro Ashtear
I'm going to preface this post with a disclaimer. I've never used python, never used any programming in the massive scale that you have, and many people here, especially CCP employee's, are much smarter than I.

I have what some would consider a basic question... why python? I've heard complaints about it left right and center, but people still use it.

Why not make all of the software in C++ or any of the other languages out there? What does python offer that C++ doesn't or even Visual C#?

Thought I'd start the flame war and my education.


As I understand it, it's a pretty simple and sensible reason...it's faster to develop in Python than it is in C++. This isn't a question of skillsets, but more of dealing with the language itself. Python is a higher level language and so many of the necessities of dealing with C++ don't exist in Python, making developing a much easier thing to do.

C++ was also developing in the late 70's....there's been some advances in programming since then.

With that ease of development come some costs...these are likely the negatives you hear about. For CCP, and for others, the costs are worth the benefits.



Uncanny Valley
Posted - 2011.06.20 16:46:00 - [14]
 

Is BlueNet going to be available for the Incarna release, or just CarbonIO?
When are you going to "publish" BlueNet data?

Looking at the graphs on CarbonIO (Red) versus the StacklessIO (Blue) there are some very significant spikes in the CarbonIO CPU usage (brief though they may be, they are far above StacklessIO peaks). Have you investigated those causes? What affect on cluster performance would that cause (i.e. laggyness)?

Hylax Ciai
Cataclysm Enterprises
Ev0ke
Posted - 2011.06.20 16:46:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Hylax Ciai on 20/06/2011 16:49:24
Edited by: Hylax Ciai on 20/06/2011 16:49:02
Edited by: Hylax Ciai on 20/06/2011 16:47:37
Originally by: Kandro Ashtear
I'm going to preface this post with a disclaimer. I've never used python, never used any programming in the massive scale that you have, and many people here, especially CCP employee's, are much smarter than I.

I have what some would consider a basic question... why python? I've heard complaints about it left right and center, but people still use it.

Why not make all of the software in C++ or any of the other languages out there? What does python offer that C++ doesn't or even Visual C#?

Thought I'd start the flame war and my education.


I think, back in the day when the development of EVE started, python was chosen because it was easier to learn than C++. New employees would have fewer difficulties to get used to the code.

The reason why they aren't just replacing the python code with C++ code is, that it would mean a tremendous amount of work to rewrite all these lines of code.
Another point is that all the python code works, as it is right now. Rewriting it in C++ means that a lot of bugs would slip into the code. Basically tested software is better than untested software, right?

So, they are only rewriting the python code when they are required to change it anyway, as it was detailed in the blog.

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2011.06.20 16:57:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Hylax Ciai
Edited by: Hylax Ciai on 20/06/2011 16:49:24
Edited by: Hylax Ciai on 20/06/2011 16:49:02
Edited by: Hylax Ciai on 20/06/2011 16:47:37
Originally by: Kandro Ashtear
I'm going to preface this post with a disclaimer. I've never used python, never used any programming in the massive scale that you have, and many people here, especially CCP employee's, are much smarter than I.

I have what some would consider a basic question... why python? I've heard complaints about it left right and center, but people still use it.

Why not make all of the software in C++ or any of the other languages out there? What does python offer that C++ doesn't or even Visual C#?

Thought I'd start the flame war and my education.


I think, back in the day when the development of EVE started, python was chosen because it was easier to learn than C++. New employees would have fewer difficulties to get used to the code.

The reason why they aren't just replacing the python code with C++ code is, that it would mean a tremendous amount of work to rewrite all these lines of code.
Another point is that all the python code works, as it is right now. Rewriting it in C++ means that a lot of bugs would slip into the code. Basically tested software is better than untested software, right?

So, they are only rewriting the python code when they are required to change it anyway, as it was detailed in the blog.


Most likely, python wasn't chosen because it is easier to learn, but rather because it is easier and faster to write code. A relatively simple task in Python which requires only one line of code may require hours of coding and debugging in C++.

The idea is that an hour of programming time is worth FAR more than a couple CPU cycles. Higher level programming languages are better business than lower level programming languages.

Ishina Fel
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.06.20 16:59:00 - [17]
 

Whoa, wait a moment! Where did that one come from? I heard no mention of this in any prior devblogs, and not in the fanfest coverage either Surprised And yet, this is the kind of thing people will frantically gobble up, the kind of thing everyone wants to read.

When are which parts of this getting enabled? Is that an official feature of the Incarna expansion, or just something that happened to be ready at the same time? What are you hoping to do with this technology in the future?


Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:07:00 - [18]
 

Now this is my kind of tech-****! Nice!

Forest Hill
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:11:00 - [19]
 

Awesome. I really like these techie blogs!

When will this be released to the rest of TQ?

BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:11:00 - [20]
 

My nerd status has been humbled by this torrent of geek-speak :(

I love technical blogs though, keep them coming.

SirHarryPierce
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:15:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda
Confirming this went way over my head but was hella awesome! Surprised


This.

Peter Powers
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:16:00 - [22]
 

awesome devblog, allways enjoy reading more about how you guys tackle such problems :)


now, the test with the switched out proxy.. was that done on TQ?

anvyl sky
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:16:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Ishina Fel
Whoa, wait a moment! Where did that one come from? I heard no mention of this in any prior devblogs, and not in the fanfest coverage either Surprised And yet, this is the kind of thing people will frantically gobble up, the kind of thing everyone wants to read.

When are which parts of this getting enabled? Is that an official feature of the Incarna expansion, or just something that happened to be ready at the same time? What are you hoping to do with this technology in the future?




qft

Randal Eirikr
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:17:00 - [24]
 

I understood the colorful graph parts at least! Wink

CCP Veritas

Posted - 2011.06.20 17:26:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Ager Agemo
so basically EVE is finally getting truely multithreated on the server side, sweet. any chance the code will ever become fully multithreated? and what about this being added on the client?


It's exceedingly unlikely that the server code will be come fully multithreaded, as we do not have any intention of abandoning Python for game logic code and other high-level constructs. What BlueNet does allow for us to do is to take the lower level packet-slinging systems and spread them wide - something Gridlock has on its plate to do in the not-too-distant future for flying in space and the Incarna guys have already been doing for the walking around business.

CarbonIO has not been turned on for the client as yet, but since the client doesn't sling packets for a living that's not a big deal. It will need to be activated before BlueNet is leveraged at all, so you can expect it to happen before the multi-player Incarna release.

Originally by: Abramul
Should be interesting to see how much this affects large battles.


It more-or-less won't until we over in Gridlock get about leveraging it as mentioned above.

Originally by: Taedrin
The idea is that an hour of programming time is worth FAR more than a couple CPU cycles. Higher level programming languages are better business than lower level programming languages.


Quoted for truth.

Originally by: Forest Hill
When will this be released to the rest of TQ?


CarbonIO has been live on TQ cluster-wide for a week.

Originally by: Peter Powers
now, the test with the switched out proxy.. was that done on TQ?


Yes

Dalmont Delantee
Gallente
Shiloh Technologies
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:27:00 - [26]
 

Now this is the kind of Dev blog we like, not the ones saying you'll be selling ships or making people pay $99 :P

GRATZ :)

Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:38:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Dalmont Delantee
Now this is the kind of Dev blog we like, not the ones saying you'll be selling ships or making people pay $99 :P

GRATZ :)


Players of many other games are happy to see new "content" that they would have to pay for, while EVE nerds, myself included, just love to see technical wall of text like this one. It tells something about the community and why we like spending time in a huge, confusing game with steep learning curve Wink

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:41:00 - [28]
 

Graphs. So pretty. This leaves me wondering if someone, somewhere in the near future is going to rewrite the GIL so that it can send processes to other cores/CPUs to be run, rather than keep them all on the same core. But... I don't know much of anything about coding so, to whoever explains why this is a dumb idea, be nice please.

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:44:00 - [29]
 

Coolies.

/c

Minsc
Gallente
Alpha Empire
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:47:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: Ager Agemo
so basically EVE is finally getting truely multithreated on the server side, sweet. any chance the code will ever become fully multithreated? and what about this being added on the client?


It's exceedingly unlikely that the server code will be come fully multithreaded, as we do not have any intention of abandoning Python for game logic code and other high-level constructs. What BlueNet does allow for us to do is to take the lower level packet-slinging systems and spread them wide - something Gridlock has on its plate to do in the not-too-distant future for flying in space and the Incarna guys have already been doing for the walking around business.

CarbonIO has not been turned on for the client as yet, but since the client doesn't sling packets for a living that's not a big deal. It will need to be activated before BlueNet is leveraged at all, so you can expect it to happen before the multi-player Incarna release.

Originally by: Abramul
Should be interesting to see how much this affects large battles.


It more-or-less won't until we over in Gridlock get about leveraging it as mentioned above.

Originally by: Taedrin
The idea is that an hour of programming time is worth FAR more than a couple CPU cycles. Higher level programming languages are better business than lower level programming languages.


Quoted for truth.

Originally by: Forest Hill
When will this be released to the rest of TQ?


CarbonIO has been live on TQ cluster-wide for a week.

Originally by: Peter Powers
now, the test with the switched out proxy.. was that done on TQ?


Yes


wow stealth server patch.

One question I have is whether the python develpment that CCP has done is getting any recognition/use in the larger python community. Are all of these advances only usefull in EVE or are they usefull in other places too.


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