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Rigg O'Mortis
Fleet Escort Services
Posted - 2011.06.20 16:47:00 - [181]
 

Excellent Tornament CCP, with great coverage on EVE TV. Enjoyed every moment of it. Congratz to both Hydra and Outbreak for reaching the final. But, shame on you both for the way you acted in the final match, Outbreak out classed Hydra in every way. The match was so easily theres. As for Outbreak they are undoubtably the winners, although their character should be questioned, as pawns of Hydra. Overall the final was ruined, hopefully CCP will take action during the next tornament! Maybe banning both parties from the next event for the way they acted in the final. Outbreak are deffinately the A team. Just a shame they have lost the minerals to prove it.Mad

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.20 16:51:00 - [182]
 


Good read, well done, taste those bitter tears.

ChaeDoc II
Gallente
Sigillum Militum Xpisti
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2011.06.20 16:54:00 - [183]
 

Originally by: Father Fondle
You ****ed on CCP's efforts to make this the best AT ever, and you crapped on the audience who was cheering for you.

No amount of yada yada will make that go away.


This, pretty much.

You **** on the audience who, it turns out, wasted their time watching the earlier matches and then making time to watch the final.
You **** on CCP and the work they do to organise and broadcast this because if the final is simply going to be a carve-up then what's the point in watching it next year?

I don't mind the dishonesty in the game itself, but the Alliance Tournament is supposed to be representative of the best small-gang PVPer in the game.

I also suspect had Hydra v Outbreak been their first game in their group and not the last then only one of those two would have progressed. Probably Outbreak.

Delegado Cero
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:08:00 - [184]
 

The only way to win is not to play (we won), but taking first and second place while ****ting on the whole eve community is the way to do it if you have to play.

The Hardman
Amarr
Uncle Fester's Olde Tyme Barbershoppe
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:12:00 - [185]
 

Edited by: The Hardman on 20/06/2011 17:13:00
Edited by: The Hardman on 20/06/2011 17:12:28
There is one simple solution for the 'problem' of rigging.

Be better.

If there were 32+ teams that were A class and could win, Hydra's attempts to rig (or others attempts to rig) would be relatively minor. When there were only a handful of teams that not only had the talent (and honestly, many alliances have the talent) and also the dedication to put in the effort to have a chance at victory... of course it is likely the final won't matter. Whether it was rigged or not.

Generally all teams fall into 3 categories:

1. Tourists who just want to be on TV, and don't have the skill or dedication to win.
2. Amateurs, who are skillful but don't put in the time to win.
3. Elite, who put in the time and have the skill to have victory.

Unfortunately, only a few teams (and I count Outbreak and Hydra as one team for this) are part of the third category.

Good job Hydra/Outbreak. Well played.

Pok Nibin
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:15:00 - [186]
 

Edited by: Pok Nibin on 20/06/2011 17:17:02
It's been interesting reading all these posts, getting down to what the actual transgression was seems to be a dart tournament in the dark. Fortunately, a few hit the nail on the head.

It would seem if an alliance is so huge they can field several teams, the generally accepted ethos of fair play would not suddenly disappear giving everyone license to ignore what they've known to be true since they were toddlers in the sandbox. Yes, it may present difficulties, but actually, if you couldn't field those teams without stepping all over the principals of fair play, in truth you couldn't field as many teams as you thought.

But, that's not the point. It's beside the point. The entire OP is beside the point. I don't think it's intentional deception. I think it's evidence of a lack of understanding of some fundamental concepts.

You don't hold meetings with your competition...unless you're up to something. It's just that simple. There's impropriety, but there's also the "appearance of impropriety." Fair and honest competitors are sensitive to these things and don't have to be told.

In this case, it was all part of the "plan". That word keeps cropping up with no regard to its significance. You have two competitors planning? You have conspiracy. There is no innocent motivation in this. It is what it is.

Given that, Mr. Tanner's rather lengthy excuse becomes a waste of bandwidth. In the end, we have to take someone's word for something and that someone has already demonstrated a lack of integrity. It's a wash. (By the way, I did read the entire post, which became more painful as I went along. I raised four kids. I've heard every "I didn't steal the cookies," excuse there is, and this post hasn't dreamed up a new one.)

It wasn't that I was disappointed to find a rigged final on the interweb TV toob. It was someone (once again) said they were going to do something which they did not do. Integrity.

It isn't a fashion. It can't go out of style. In the end this entire rebuttal by the offenders belongs in the "Get a clue" file...including all the "great post" responses by Hydra Reloaded members. They read like Al Capone's cronies saying "Good job boss," after he bribed a municipal judge, and offed a few witnesses.

Give my weary eyes a rest.


Rgarcia
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:18:00 - [187]
 

"By fixing our match with Razor to finish second in the group this allowed us to be in the opposite bracket as Hydra and getting Razor out of the group"

So sad to see how rigged the AT is. I wonder how much isk the Hydra ppl won from the fixed betting? I was oging to place a few bets but I am so glad I didn't now. I just feel bad to all those who weren't in the "know" and lost tons of isk. Must be nice tobet when you know who will win.

Also CCP's position is it's all fair according to the rules. Which is true depending on your perspective but they have lost more than they realize for not handling this better. Good luck getting 3rd party sponsors for next year, getting people to watch it besides the ten or twelve who said they would, good luck to getting people to enter it, and good luck getting more people to play with yet another scandal.

noise
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:23:00 - [188]
 

Congrats on the win, well played and planned!

The Hardman
Amarr
Uncle Fester's Olde Tyme Barbershoppe
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:25:00 - [189]
 

How is it a scandal?

How is any of this rigged in the traditional sense? If other groups were just better, Hydra would have lost. Hydra had no advantage over their competition.

So how is this a scandal?

I would agree with you if somehow Hydra snuck in officer fits on all their ships or HG implants or something. But they didn't. They played by the rules, the same rules as everyone else played by. And if there had been more than a couple of other teams with a shot at victory, they would not have succeeded.

And most teams not having a shot at victory is because of their own lack and nothing to do with anything Hydra did.

Most teams hardly practice at all. Why should they expect to have a good chance if they don't practice?

Kagumichan
Degenerate Corp
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:26:00 - [190]
 

People will watch next year, same as people will compete and people will enjoy it, because in a week or two everyone will stop trolling about this and forget it happened, and next year it'll probably all happen again, except we won't be sitting inside our spaceships in stations.

Myrkala
Minmatar
Rebel Inc
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:35:00 - [191]
 

Hydra and Outbreak should have had a legit fight in the final.


Pros:

- Viewers none the wiser, good entertainment.

- You can repeat it again next year (if you want) with out the majority of people knowing.

Cons:

- Not as much e-peen waving.
- "Community" not hating you.

Very Happy

MisterNick
Gallente
The Sagan Clan
Pax Romana Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:40:00 - [192]
 

Edited by: MisterNick on 20/06/2011 18:13:35
Firstly, impressive wall of text.

It's clear that you guys deserved to be in the final, indeed with both of your teams. But that was a truly dreadful final, massive fail in even attempting to make it interesting - You should clearly have made it a 10 v 10 faction frigate dogfight Wink

EDIT: Still an excellent tournament, can't wait for next year's Very Happy

Icylce
Frost Palace
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:46:00 - [193]
 

Originally by: The Hardman
How is it a scandal?

How is any of this rigged in the traditional sense? If other groups were just better, Hydra would have lost. Hydra had no advantage over their competition.

So how is this a scandal?

I would agree with you if somehow Hydra snuck in officer fits on all their ships or HG implants or something. But they didn't. They played by the rules, the same rules as everyone else played by. And if there had been more than a couple of other teams with a shot at victory, they would not have succeeded.

And most teams not having a shot at victory is because of their own lack and nothing to do with anything Hydra did.

Most teams hardly practice at all. Why should they expect to have a good chance if they don't practice?

Seriously. How is it that u don't get it?
U know that, according to your logic the antisemitic Nurnberg laws are all right because it's just following the rules.

Kumq uat
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:48:00 - [194]
 

This is the kind of stuff I love to read. Excellent story telling. Shame we did not get a chance to disrupt your plans.

Kagumichan
Degenerate Corp
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:50:00 - [195]
 

Actually that would have been pretty epic, mid-way through the match, it's obvious what's going on then SUDDENLY CCP Shriegs flies into the arena with his Erebus and annihilates everyone with his out-of-date AoE Doomsday gun!

.... come to think of it if that HAD happened it would have been the ultimate twist, and everyone would have loved it Very Happy

Shasz
Angels of Anarchy
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:53:00 - [196]
 

That was a great writeup Duncan, thanks for taking the time.

You guys put in what sounds to be an amazing amount of work and props to you all for the 1-2 finish.

But like most opinions, come on... all 20 of you in rifters would've been a more exciting finish than a grand finale where no one took it seriously. It really did **** on an internet spaceships "big deal" production not to even try to have a real battle at the end.

Koeki
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:53:00 - [197]
 

Very good job on the preparations and the meta gaming was brilliant. You guys deserve to be 1st and 2nd.

Regarding the last match: I have been killed by lowlife scum pirates with more honor than you. I have been scammed by Jita honorless scammers with more honor than you. I think HYDRA is the B-team of Outbreak and you should have given them the chance to prove it, even if you wanted to keep the cruisers and given them the frigates.

G0rF
Gallente
The Causality
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.06.20 18:04:00 - [198]
 

Good read. Thanks for taking the time to do such a detailed write up.

ATs always seem to be a case of half a dozen big money alliances hiving off up and fielding most of the teams in the competition and then metagaming their way to the final.

I don't understand why everyone's so surprised.

Oh, and well played Hydra / 0utbreak.

Triple Entendre
Atrocity.
Posted - 2011.06.20 18:04:00 - [199]
 

Edited by: Triple Entendre on 20/06/2011 18:04:38
Originally by: Giggity Girly
So the tournament isn't a pvp tournament at all. Its a metagaming tournament. Its hard to think of someone as the best at pvp when mostly what they've done is outside of the arena. If it were labeled properly, people would be a lot less critical.


PVP doesn't stop at ships exploding.

Just like everything else in this game, this was obviously just as much a show of out-thinking and outsmarting your opponents than out-gunning them.

Great read, you sneaky bastards you. Very Happy

Kagumichan
Degenerate Corp
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2011.06.20 18:05:00 - [200]
 

woop, 200th reply \o/

Triple Entendre
Atrocity.
Posted - 2011.06.20 18:07:00 - [201]
 

Originally by: Kagumichan
woop, 200th reply \o/


DAMNIT.

Master Technique
Club Bear
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2011.06.20 18:08:00 - [202]
 

First, grats to HYDRA and Outbreak. I have the ticker, but I've not been active and definitely did not contribute to their efforts.

To the complainers:

You all refuse to consider all the elements of this story. They earned, to the highest degree, their right to be in the finals against each other. First, go read all of Duncan's post and tell us you have put that much effort into anything in this game besides whining on the forum. Second, stop considering the final "fake". They gave you a real fight. 20 ships were on the field, and one team began ****tossing the other. What happened next was not a botched arrangement, it was an act of honor and respect for a man and a team that dedicated an unhealthy amount of time to this game. This is not a group of people "****ting" on their audience. It sounds like a story line for the feel good movie of the Summer. If you had not imagined there would be some sort of communication between the two finals teams before it happened, then you need to pay more attention. Kil2 talked all weekend about them training together. You didn't even have to use deductive reasoning, you just had to listen, but please carry on insulting your own intelligence if you wish.

In summation, this was a fantastic tournament. There were a lot of good teams, a few excellent teams, the commentary and production quality were top notch, and I think next year will be just as awesome if not better.

Grats again m8s.

Kagumichan
Degenerate Corp
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2011.06.20 18:08:00 - [203]
 

Just thought I'd add a bit of a joke post in there to hopefully lighten the mood, lots of raging hormones in the forums of-late :P

Grath Telkin
Amarr
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.20 18:11:00 - [204]
 

Garmon has a tendency to troll, a lot.

Normally its just mildly amusing, but this time it may bite him in the ass.


I think you made CCP, you know, the company that awards the prizes, and hosts the tournament, pretty damn mad.


While I completely agree with how you went about what you did, and why you did it, because we had the idea to at least try it too, I wouldn't be shocked if you somehow get robbed of your prize, or it takes forever to be delivered.

And judging by the continuous stream of angry hate threads, I wouldn't expect a public outcry were they to not give you your prizes.

manlet
Posted - 2011.06.20 18:13:00 - [205]
 

Hyrda and Outbreak where by far the best two teams in the tournament, the amount of effort and planning put in was amazing, they truely deserve their victories and isk for all that hard work, I dont think anyone can question that.

However part of me was disappointed, I kinda wanted to see a good old fight at the end, both teams figting for merit and honour, a slugfest to end the tournament off in style. Sadly we didnt get it, and the tournament ended as a damp squid, and has perhaps slightly stained their achievements. But I doubt they will mind when counting all that isk up ;)

Anyway Congrats on the victory Hyrda and Outbreak, the best 2 teams no question!

Akiba Penrose
The Praxis Initiative
Posted - 2011.06.20 18:15:00 - [206]
 

Originally by: BondGamer
Edited by: BondGamer on 20/06/2011 08:07:29
Here is CCP's perspective:

They spend months planning, preparing, creating unique ships for this tournament. They have a whole webcast with an elaborate set and fly out people on their own dime to commentate on this tournament. They have up to 2 dozen people working 4 weekends to keep the whole thing running smoothly.

And you guys just took a dump all over it.

Good job.

Originally by: Koeki

Regarding the last match: I have been killed by lowlife scum pirates with more honor than you. I have been scammed by Jita honorless scammers with more honor than you. I think HYDRA is the B-team of Outbreak and you should have given them the chance to prove it, even if you wanted to keep the cruisers and given them the frigates.

These two posts sums it up for me. It really surprises me that anyone would make their way to the final and then just throw it.

Apparently the AT is not about becoming champions any more, but getting free ships from CCP.
I say remove the prices, so we dont have to watch crap like this any more.

Icylce
Frost Palace
Posted - 2011.06.20 18:19:00 - [207]
 

Originally by: Master Technique

To the complainers:

You all refuse to consider all the elements of this story. They earned, to the highest degree, their right to be in the finals against each other. First, go read all of Duncan's post and tell us you have put that much effort into anything in this game besides whining on the forum. Second, stop considering the final "fake". They gave you a real fight. 20 ships were on the field, and one team began ****tossing the other. What happened next was not a botched arrangement, it was an act of honor and respect for a man and a team that dedicated an unhealthy amount of time to this game. This is not a group of people "****ting" on their audience. It sounds like a story line for the feel good movie of the Summer. If you had not imagined there would be some sort of communication between the two finals teams before it happened, then you need to pay more attention. Kil2 talked all weekend about them training together. You didn't even have to use deductive reasoning, you just had to listen, but please carry on insulting your own intelligence if you wish.


U have a weird idea of real fight. And wird idea about honor. Also your argument 'respect and honor to one hero pilot' has a fatal flaw. This tournament wouldn't have happened without CCP and their work. Where is the respect and honor for them?

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.20 18:25:00 - [208]
 

Originally by: Grath Telkin

I think you made CCP, you know, the company that awards the prizes, and hosts the tournament, pretty damn mad.



Can you link us to the post where CCP is raging about what happened? I haven't seen it and I thought I had read them all. It seems to me that only a VERY small percentage of the entire player based is upset about it and subsequently whining on the forums.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.06.20 18:26:00 - [209]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 20/06/2011 18:27:10
Originally by: J Kunjeh
Originally by: Grath Telkin

I think you made CCP, you know, the company that awards the prizes, and hosts the tournament, pretty damn mad.



Can you link us to the post where CCP is raging about what happened? I haven't seen it and I thought I had read them all. It seems to me that only a VERY small percentage of the entire player based is upset about it and subsequently whining on the forums.


Can we link to posts from people who were at the alliance tournament after the camera turned off? :)

Ed: And TBH if you think CCP won't be mad about a finals like that, then you're ****ing delusional. CCP spent a lot of RL $$$ throwing a bash like that, and even managed to score external sponsorship and RL prizes. The final was a ****up of MASSIVE proportion, and CCP has every right to be ****ed about it.

Icylce
Frost Palace
Posted - 2011.06.20 18:32:00 - [210]
 

Originally by: J Kunjeh

Can you link us to the post where CCP is raging about what happened? I haven't seen it and I thought I had read them all. It seems to me that only a VERY small percentage of the entire player based is upset about it and subsequently whining on the forums.

And even smaller percentage of eve player base is satisfied with how things worked out. What's your point?


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