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Mekhana
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:43:00 - [91]
 

Edited by: Mekhana on 21/06/2011 18:44:02
I get plenty of good fights at certain times. Usually within a hour or two from the same window.

Sometimes fights will even be arranged between both sides.

The secret is to know when to be around or simply learn to do something in the spare time.


jackaloped
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:49:00 - [92]
 

Julius

People will put their alts in the other militia and kill them in fully insured ships to exploit the lp for pvp.

As far as more lp for plex yes it can and should be done. I'm not sure about your method. I think a simpler method would just be to give lp based on the size of the plex and the amount of time it takes to run.

I'm not interested in being part of large coodinated efforts. I don't have the time to commit to the game for that. If you do I would suggest going to null sec. I think FW should be available for those who like pvp but don't have time to hang around online all that often.

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:54:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Mekhana
Edited by: Mekhana on 21/06/2011 18:44:02
I get plenty of good fights at certain times. Usually within a hour or two from the same window.

Sometimes fights will even be arranged between both sides.

The secret is to know when to be around or simply learn to do something in the spare time.




Arranged fights are proof that the mechanics are failing.

Plus having a good fight every hour or 2 is pretty poor. You should be able to reliably get 3 good fights in an hour, sometimes 5 or 6. Otherwise this is really just a game for people with way too much time on their hands.

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:58:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Deen Wispa


Someone mentioned about adding in Navy BCs which I'm sure would bring more people into FW. Though, I'd hate to see a Drake Navy issue come out considering the normal Drake is OP as it is.


Well not to totally derail the topic into ships. Twisted Evil

I think best option for more Navy ship versions would be to follow the example of the Navy Frigs. Instead of creating say a Navy Issue Drake or Hurricane for example create a new ship instead.

What I'd like to see, would be a new class of Navy Destroyers but as much as I love to fly BC's, I'm not so sure making Navy BC's would be a good idea. As you mentioned Drakes for example are already pretty good as well as most of the others (Canes, Harbs, Myrms ect..).

I think creating a Navy class of BC's might end up with them being a bit too OP, due to the fact BC's are already pretty much the best all around ships in the game.

Deen Wispa
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:01:00 - [95]
 

Edited by: Deen Wispa on 21/06/2011 19:02:23
Originally by: jackaloped
Originally by: Mekhana
Edited by: Mekhana on 21/06/2011 18:44:02
I get plenty of good fights at certain times. Usually within a hour or two from the same window.

Sometimes fights will even be arranged between both sides.

The secret is to know when to be around or simply learn to do something in the spare time.




Arranged fights are proof that the mechanics are failing.

Plus having a good fight every hour or 2 is pretty poor. You should be able to reliably get 3 good fights in an hour, sometimes 5 or 6. Otherwise this is really just a game for people with way too much time on their hands.



3 good fights in an hour? LOL. Curious to know what your current pvp experience is in EVE that you would suggest that?

What you are suggesting does not exist anywhere in FW nor EVE. That's more of a FPS; log in and shoot stuff. Eve nor FW just isn't designed for on-demand pew.

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:02:00 - [96]
 

Edited by: Mutnin on 21/06/2011 19:13:01

Originally by: jackaloped
Originally by: Mekhana
Edited by: Mekhana on 21/06/2011 18:44:02
I get plenty of good fights at certain times. Usually within a hour or two from the same window.

Sometimes fights will even be arranged between both sides.

The secret is to know when to be around or simply learn to do something in the spare time.






Arranged fights are proof that the mechanics are failing.

Plus having a good fight every hour or 2 is pretty poor. You should be able to reliably get 3 good fights in an hour, sometimes 5 or 6. Otherwise this is really just a game for people with way too much time on their hands.



I think you have an awful lot of wishful thinking and don't understand reality so well. EVE isn't WOW arena PVP, it's a bit more complicated and risk is involved with fights. Meaning ship losses can only be sustained at a reasonable rate for most players involved.

Tossing away 5 "properly fitted" ships in a day for example is not sustainable for most players wallet, as well as replacement time wise. (ie takes time to move in resupplies to most forward bases)

This isn't a respawn with new ship game.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:11:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Julius Foederatus
Lets start by giving proper LP for kills.

We went over this a million times in the weeks prior to the current LP-for-Kills was introduced and nothing has changed.
Buy BS -> Insure BS -> blow up BS with alt in enemy militia -> repeat ad nauseum.
Originally by: Julius Foederatus
Now, for plexing/system capture...

Unless plexes actually become hard as hell to do and/or are severely restricted in spawn number the farming will increase to insane levels.
Amarr takes 15 plexes in Auga, leaves to let Minmatar take 15, return to take 15 .. same arrangement in Kourmonen - ad nauseum. Once ISK enters the picture in amounts significant enough to warrant such a change the pew will be limited to arranged bouts (more than it is now).
Originally by: Julius Foederatus
Then we need incentives for system capture itself.

HELL NO! Have you ever plexed extensively? Personally been involved in 20-30 system flips and I can guarantee you that the work is 100% in the plexing.
Paying people for not even participating is folly beyond comprehension and a slap in the face of honest plexers .. by all means reward the plexing and maybe have some little benefit from occupying a system but there is no way any of the old guard would go for a scheme like that.

Bottom line: If something can be exploited you can be damn sure it will be to the extreme. The only way to promote pew over plexes is to regulate their spawning into a handful of systems at a time (ie. the frontline concept).
If they spawn willy-nilly as is the case now, people will just run to next open beacon at the first sign of trouble.

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:19:00 - [98]
 

The biggest problem with the plexing system, is it was not created specifically for FW. Plexing & system captures were put into FW as null sec sov mechanic test and once CCP decided not to use it in null, they pretty much ignored it in FW as well.

The irony is combined with system upgrades in Null the plexing system if reworked a bit could actually work out in null as a incentive to get small gang warfare.

Princess Nexxala
Gallente
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:22:00 - [99]
 

Edited by: Princess Nexxala on 21/06/2011 19:28:17
Edited by: Princess Nexxala on 21/06/2011 19:23:45
I agree arranged fights are not nearly as fun and proof of faults in the FW system. There is currently no incentive to pew besides epeen and the fun of it. Why that isn't enough for some people I a can't say. Personally, blowing your **** up is the entire reason I play this game.

Your second point is just silly. Sure there are times when you are getting fights constantly, but there are also nights that fights are hard to come by. Getting a fight is one of the hardest skills to perfect in Eve PvP. It has nothing to do with FW. I get more fights in lowsec FW then I ever have in Null. And highsec PvP is a ****ing joke.


Originally by: jackaloped

Arranged fights are proof that the mechanics are failing.

Plus having a good fight every hour or 2 is pretty poor. You should be able to reliably get 3 good fights in an hour, sometimes 5 or 6. Otherwise this is really just a game for people with way too much time on their hands.



So your another one of these people that want their PvP hand fed to them? I suggest joining RvB then and stay clear of FW.

Originally by: jackaloped
Julius
I'm not interested in being part of large coodinated efforts. I don't have the time to commit to the game for that. If you do I would suggest going to null sec. I think FW should be available for those who like pvp but don't have time to hang around online all that often.

Julius Foederatus
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:24:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: jackaloped
Julius

People will put their alts in the other militia and kill them in fully insured ships to exploit the lp for pvp.

As far as more lp for plex yes it can and should be done. I'm not sure about your method. I think a simpler method would just be to give lp based on the size of the plex and the amount of time it takes to run.

I'm not interested in being part of large coodinated efforts. I don't have the time to commit to the game for that. If you do I would suggest going to null sec. I think FW should be available for those who like pvp but don't have time to hang around online all that often.


To the first point, then we can scale the rewards down a bit. But I highly doubt you would make enough isk to justify the effort required to farm at that level.

As to the second point, if you're not interested in large coordinated efforts, don't take part. There's nothing stopping you from doing your own thing or just participating in the initial stages, or even participating in the large fights if you happen to be on.

But we're talking about two different things here. There's a difference between participating as a casual player and getting rewarded as a casual player. There's nothing in my proposal that stops a casual player from pvping at his leisure. What it does stop is casual players being able to be rewarded at the same level as a hardcore fw player.

FW should be like any enterprise, you get out of it what you put in. The situation for hardcore FW players as it is now is, while not as bad as it used to be, still one of diminishing returns. FW missions as they are now, in addition to doing absolutely nothing to promote pvp, are a tool for people who are not directly involved in FW to make money that we need in order to keep fighting. Other than simply not participating, the farmers sole existence is to make isk, which means selling the items that we need to sell to keep fighting, pushing our prices down and making it harder for us to participate in FW. So these farmers are indirectly hurting FW by killing the cash flow that is needed to sustain FW activities.

Surely no one is going to argue that casual FW players should be able to get as much out of the system as hardcore players. After all, FW would collapse without the vets. We're the ones who fc the fleets, gather strategic and real-time intel, provide the resources that enable FW fleets to engage in more fights, and train the less experienced players who come into FW. Why shouldn't we have a system where these types of players are able to get more rewards than the guy who shows up for 1 or 2 hours sporadically?

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:35:00 - [101]
 

Edited by: Mutnin on 21/06/2011 19:46:15

Originally by: Princess Nexxala

I agree arranged fights are not nearly as fun and proof of faults in the FW system.


While of course I do agree that arranged fights are not quite as realistic, lets face the facts. FW in a sense is an arranged fight and pretty much as close as you can get to what could be considered Arena PVP.

While yes there is still risk involved, it's pretty much just risk of losing your ship & pod. We have no risk of losing our space just our bragging rights.

Lets also be honest in the fact that for the most part we are all here to PVP. While personally I'm not a fan of arranged 1v1's I don't see a lot of issue with arranged gang fights.

First of all it's not like anyone is arranging numbers or fleet comps. FC's typically are just saying to the other FC. We want to fight if you have the numbers let's do it.

It's just agreeing to set up a fight which still leaves all the other variables into play. There is still typical fleet movements trying to out position the other gang or reships to counter what other guys brought. At most they might haggle from time to time about who has to jump into the other.

FW isn't null sec where you waste half the day just getting a fleet together and waste the other half of the day waiting for the other guys to show up or blue ball you.

The arranged fights typically allow the gangs to get some action faster, with fairly equal sides. It's a lot more fun than what we used to see, which was blobs ganking frigs all day and over last month or so it's allowed for a hell of a lot of GF's IMO.

Julius Foederatus
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:44:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Julius Foederatus
Lets start by giving proper LP for kills.

We went over this a million times in the weeks prior to the current LP-for-Kills was introduced and nothing has changed.
Buy BS -> Insure BS -> blow up BS with alt in enemy militia -> repeat ad nauseum.


Already addressed this, but to go into more detail, a tier 1 BS costs roughly 50-55m to buy. Insurance is (I'm not in eve so I can't check on this accurately) roughly 13m. So we simply adjust my original numbers to half of what they were, so you're losing something like 6-7m everytime you blow one up. Not to mention, this kind of thing is easily adjustable for and self-correcting at that, since farmers will fast find themselves losing money once prices drop too far.

Quote:
Unless plexes actually become hard as hell to do and/or are severely restricted in spawn number the farming will increase to insane levels.
Amarr takes 15 plexes in Auga, leaves to let Minmatar take 15, return to take 15 .. same arrangement in Kourmonen - ad nauseum. Once ISK enters the picture in amounts significant enough to warrant such a change the pew will be limited to arranged bouts (more than it is now).


This is preposterous. Are you honestly going to tell me, that over 100 pvpers within 2 jumps of each other are going to simply arrange it so neither of them ever pvps when there are flashy targets undocked and forced to orbit an objective? Especially when there are tangible rewards and penalties for taking/losing systems? For ****s sake, we come to FW to pvp, not conspire with the people we shoot on a daily basis to make isk. It would require controlling the actions of nearly everyone in militia, which will not happen.

Quote:
HELL NO! Have you ever plexed extensively? Personally been involved in 20-30 system flips and I can guarantee you that the work is 100% in the plexing.
Paying people for not even participating is folly beyond comprehension and a slap in the face of honest plexers .. by all means reward the plexing and maybe have some little benefit from occupying a system but there is no way any of the old guard would go for a scheme like that.

Bottom line: If something can be exploited you can be damn sure it will be to the extreme. The only way to promote pew over plexes is to regulate their spawning into a handful of systems at a time (ie. the frontline concept).
If they spawn willy-nilly as is the case now, people will just run to next open beacon at the first sign of trouble.


First of all, yes I have plexed extensively, I was one of the players involved in crafting the strategy that led to the Gallente reclaiming their first systems when we had none. I've done the plex thing and I know how the 'old guard' thinks. The fact is, the 'old guard' as you put it, wants more people to plex. They want people to take a stake in system occupancy, and they want to have people pvp in plexes so that it doesn't feel like the work it is now.

A frontline is easily created through docking access and the removal thereof. Want to plex 10 jumps from the nearest dockable system? When you get chased out you have nowhere to repair, nowhere to ship up, nowhere to rearm, whereas your enemy has all these things. It would be so hard to offensively plex in areas that far away that it would mean most plexers would only get a few plexes deep before the enemy was on top of them and they were forced to withdraw. I do agree that changing the respawn mechanics to reinforce this behavior would be best, but I don't think that that would need to happen to facilitate it in the first place.

Princess Nexxala
Gallente
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:52:00 - [103]
 

Well to me that would be an arranged fight in the same way that a 1v1 is arranged with frigs or what not. FCs in the caldari/gal zone do that from time to time. Just saying "hey we want to pew" isn't arranging a fight IMO. Its when they say bring only frigs, no podding, in this system, etc....**** all that.

Originally by: Mutnin

First of all it's not like anyone is arranging numbers or fleet comps. FC's typically are just saying to the other FC. We want to fight if you have the numbers let's do it.


Super Chair
Caldari
Hell's Revenge
Posted - 2011.06.21 20:11:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Mutnin
Originally by: Deen Wispa


Someone mentioned about adding in Navy BCs which I'm sure would bring more people into FW. Though, I'd hate to see a Drake Navy issue come out considering the normal Drake is OP as it is.


Well not to totally derail the topic into ships. Twisted Evil

I think best option for more Navy ship versions would be to follow the example of the Navy Frigs. Instead of creating say a Navy Issue Drake or Hurricane for example create a new ship instead.

What I'd like to see, would be a new class of Navy Destroyers but as much as I love to fly BC's, I'm not so sure making Navy BC's would be a good idea. As you mentioned Drakes for example are already pretty good as well as most of the others (Canes, Harbs, Myrms ect..).

I think creating a Navy class of BC's might end up with them being a bit too OP, due to the fact BC's are already pretty much the best all around ships in the game.


I suggested navy faction ewar cruisers as well, tbh I dont think theyd be that hard to implement, just as most navy cruisers behave similar to their HAC counterparts the faction ewar cruisers would do the same and mirror the recons.

Navy BCs are a bit tricky ill admit. I would get a nerd-rection to see a navy ferox though. Surprised

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.21 20:22:00 - [105]
 

Location: Heydieles
Time: After proposed LP for plexing mechanics have been introduced.
Gallente Intel Channel:

Val Erian > Joanna Ramirez, Condor, Minor, Heydieles (uncontested)
X Gallentius > Hey Val, let her cap the plex, we'll run the unopened major after she's done and make some bank.

Heyd Local:
X Gallentius > Hey Joanna, there's three more minors, please run them too!

Fast Forward 2 weeks:
X Gallentius > Hey guys I need to make some isk, logging my Caldari alt Yuri Agoze to run the minor in Heyd.
10 minutes later.
X Gallentius > OK back, opening the major.


Super Chair
Caldari
Hell's Revenge
Posted - 2011.06.21 20:29:00 - [106]
 

Edited by: Super Chair on 21/06/2011 20:30:05
Was just reading the patch notes and I came across this:


Factional Warfare NPCs now care about defending against their allies enemies.


Perhaps a fix to amarr/minnie alts plexing in caldari/gallente plexes (and vice versa), or a fix to the high standings alt issue, or just complete bull and CCP is just pulling our leg? We will see... Razz

Edit, pasted and got cut off

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.06.21 20:32:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Julius Foederatus
Already addressed this..

Problem is the envelope is infinitesimal. LP/ISK ratio ranges from 1k to 3k, so pump the LP-for-Kill high enough to make a difference and you automatically make it exploitable.
Originally by: Julius Foederatus
This is preposterous....

Not at all, this is the way it has been for well over a year. The only time there is actual fighting going on is when it is arranged or when two crews of equal size meet (which is pretty rare).
This will not change just because you throw money at them, as a blob will still not find anything to shoot other than a gank once in a while and with plexes readily available the inferior force has no reason to dance.

Docking will never be denied in NPC stations, CCP has said as much on numerous occasions.
There might be a way to convince them to deny access to services though but haven't heard anything official on that so don't know .. would provide most of what you seek though.

PS: In case you haven't read it yet, allow my to pimp my old thread which contains answers to most of the issues with FW (as they were back then).

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.21 20:58:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Super Chair

Factional Warfare NPCs now care about defending against their allies enemies.

lol, 2 years late. Perhaps in another two years NPCs will care about defending against WTS with +5 standings towards their militia.

Julius Foederatus
Posted - 2011.06.21 22:13:00 - [109]
 

Edited by: Julius Foederatus on 21/06/2011 22:15:52
Maybe it's like that in minnie space, but that's not how it is in our end.

And if you're really worried about alts farming, then fine, we can eliminate any LP rewards for plexes or make them negligible and load all of the LP rewards into system capture. But that's not as guaranteed to get people to plex as direct rewards. It'll just allow freeloaders to come in and bash the bunker and get all the rewards while the real effort goes unrewarded.

Lets be real here, what you guys are suggesting is that 2 sides would have to coordinate on a massive level in order to farm this stuff. They would have to specifically ignore each other in order to let the plexes get far enough down the road to system capture and then you still have to compete for the plexes in the actual contested systems. All it takes is one or two people who want to pew the other side and it falls apart. And that's if you even buy the premise that two factions, who exist to kill each other, who try everything to disrupt the each other, that have built up so much hatred for each other over time that they can't be civil in local, would willingly stand by and let each other make isk in peace.

The whole point of my proposal is that yes you can farm at a low level. But the guys who are going to get the real rewards are the ones who actually go out and pvp and take risks. Hell, if you all are that concerned with low level farmers, lets make it so both sides don't get any LP until the system is either taken or uncontested. That will force people into them if they want their compensation. The fact of the matter is that missions do not encourage pvp, they never will unless you alter them so radically that they're hardly missions anymore. Plexes, for all their faults, at least give both sides an objective that they can fight over that take in a reasonable amount of time.

Edit: Frankly if CCP won't revoke docking rights for some at NPC stations then they're worthless and gutless and FW will never be what it could be. Something like that would solve so many problems with the current warzone and completely alter the strategic outlook of the FW area. Lets hope they grow some balls and change their minds.

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2011.06.21 22:58:00 - [110]
 

Edited by: Mutnin on 21/06/2011 23:00:22
Originally by: Super Chair

I suggested navy faction ewar cruisers as well, tbh I dont think theyd be that hard to implement, just as most navy cruisers behave similar to their HAC counterparts the faction ewar cruisers would do the same and mirror the recons.

Navy BCs are a bit tricky ill admit. I would get a nerd-rection to see a navy ferox though. Surprised


The problem with more EW ships, is how do you make them a worth while ship that isn't just a duplicate of ships already in the game?

Using an example of say ECM. We already have Griffen > Kitsune > Black Bird > Rook > Falcon > Scorp. Each does pretty much same job just in a slightly different way & with slightly different options.

Before seeing another Cruiser type added, I'd personally rather see the ship tier system abolished so the current lower tier ships could be made useful & only separated by their roll rather than effectiveness.

Example, take the Breacher, it's kind of an odd ball Minmatar ship that is missile bonused. It almost has potential as a decent frig but it just lacks the ability to give it a decent fit. Not just grid wise but also slot layout.

It's a ship that has it's potential taken away because it has to fit in it's spot of a useless tier system that's only effect on game play is to make a vast majority of ships irrelevant.

Rigel Vex
Posted - 2011.06.22 01:22:00 - [111]
 

This thread got Trolled.

Tanaka Sekigahara
United Space Marine Corp
Posted - 2011.06.22 01:25:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: jackaloped
I see you ignored all the questions I asked about how long it takes to find fun pvp under the actual mechanics and instead chose to post your killboard stats.

How many good fights do you get from the time you sign in until the time you sign out? How many hours per good fight?

Anyone can get a bunch of kills. Its not that hard. But finding good fights is a different story.

Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara
Originally by: jackaloped
Edited by: jackaloped on 21/06/2011 15:40:31
Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara

First I would like to share my own experience in FW before I comment on anyone elses.I've been in in for over 3 years of the 4 years its been around.Currently i get PvP every day. I get solo fights, small gang and medium gang warfare and at least once a day( sometimes more) fights where each side fields over 30 ships.I lose ships, and kill ships with regularity.


How many hours go by where you are just warping around looking for fight? What about waiting for a fleet to form to just go roaming in a large gang ganking stragglers? That is not my bag. FW should be exciting stuff. When you log in you should immediately be told where you are needed to fight and there should be literally dozens of fights going on in all the systems all the time.


Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara

Seems to me there are plenty of fights to be had, and when i cant enagage, its almost always not because there are no targets, but because a large enough fleet cant be mustered to engage the one that is already out there.This is a matter of organization and motivation, not game mechanics.


The game mechanics are bad. FW should be involve constant fighting all through the fw regions. Instead its waiting for one blob to form to fight another blob that will then dock reship and chase the next blob. It’s really the problem for all of eve. FW should be the solution but ccp ignores it.


Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara

In short, we in FW are Lazy


Yeah we want to play a computer game without having to trade in a real life like the “big boys” in null sec.

I'll be damned if i can find any kills in any board on your char, so obviously this is an alt of your main who I'm sure has a great many kills, so clearly you know of what you speak( not that I've ever seen you around) but I'm in fleets pretty much the whole time I'm online, and I get plenty of action.BTW, I am immediately told where to go when I log on, for the record.Im no great pilot, but im busy enough that i am neglecting other things in game i could be doing besides PvP, but I've got 30 kills last 7 days, nothing great, but keeps me interested.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Tanaka+Sekigahara

How you doing?

-I answered every thing you asked. I'm thinking you are a nutter, or what they call around here a troll.

Tanaka Sekigahara
United Space Marine Corp
Posted - 2011.06.22 01:32:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Julius Foederatus
Already addressed this..

Problem is the envelope is infinitesimal. LP/ISK ratio ranges from 1k to 3k, so pump the LP-for-Kill high enough to make a difference and you automatically make it exploitable.
Originally by: Julius Foederatus
This is preposterous....

Not at all, this is the way it has been for well over a year. The only time there is actual fighting going on is when it is arranged or when two crews of equal size meet (which is pretty rare).
This will not change just because you throw money at them, as a blob will still not find anything to shoot other than a gank once in a while and with plexes readily available the inferior force has no reason to dance.

Docking will never be denied in NPC stations, CCP has said as much on numerous occasions.
There might be a way to convince them to deny access to services though but haven't heard anything official on that so don't know .. would provide most of what you seek though.

PS: In case you haven't read it yet, allow my to pimp my old thread which contains answers to most of the issues with FW (as they were back then).
This is utterly ridiculous.Fights happen all the time and not only within the parameters you describe.Fly with an FC that knows how to get a fight and dictate the terms of the engagement.

Assassin126
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.22 06:53:00 - [114]
 

I see the 2 main suggestions are LP reward for plexing and PVP, plexing is good to reward with LP and not really exploitable, and to stop people exploiting PVP, the LP reward depends on the market value of the kill, so a super capital kill gives lots of LP, a rookie ship could give about 3

The best way is probably to make an increased reward for plexing, because for people like me with 10.00 tribal liberation force standing, there is no point at all in doing a plex any more - except when im in kourm/houla, as there is a reasonable chance of PVP plexing in there. I guess that's what I end up doing when my home system is the Amarr staging system :P Valkyrs pos's FTW

Also something needs to be done about the blob *cough* Nephilim Xeno and some other names come to mind

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.06.22 11:03:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara
..Fly with an FC that knows how to get a fight and dictate the terms of the engagement.

So you have a magical FC that is able to conjure up "fair" fights? Holy crap, you should hire him out because that is what all of Eve has been wanting for a long time.

'Dictate the engagement' is FC speak for ganking the crap out of someone, be it by sheer numbers, RR/ECM abuse or overshipping .. any fool can do that.
There are fights to be had but the point is they don't automatically appear just because you throw money at people .. not when the same money can be had without fighting.

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.22 14:02:00 - [116]
 

Andraz is an exceptional FC.

Von Kroll
Caldari
Kroll's Legion
Posted - 2011.06.22 17:30:00 - [117]
 

Edited by: Von Kroll on 22/06/2011 17:31:13
@Hirana, what we're looking for is competitive PvP. I think that's a different metric than "fair". Fair is t-ball leagues where people don't keep score. Competitive is a fight that's "winnable" by either side, depending on the skill and acumen of the FC and his team. Everybody wants to win and get lots of kills, but no one, long-term, will stay interested in clubbing baby seals.

One thing that impacts all of this is how much isk the player pilots have in their respective wallets. If everyone has a fat wallet, they're eager to fight and potentially lose ships, and futhermore, they can sustain losing ships. FW missions give people the ability to create isk locally, without having to run off to high-sec. Personal pilot wealth is extremely important when corps/alliances live in low-sec because the corp/alliance doesn't have the same mechanics available to null-sec alliances to control and exploit the resources available. While there is a considerable amount of wealth available in FW space, its tougher for the FW corps to exploit them. Having personal wealth potential available is very important. To be honest, I could care less what mechanic is used to provide that potential to the individual pilot, as long as we have one. I think its foolish to assume though, that any mechanic that gets implemented, will be one that some non-FW player can't exploit. Null-sec alliances get farmed all the time. I'm sure as Incursions mature, someone will find a way to exploit them as well.

Anyway, I think overall, there's a decent balance right now. There are things that need to be tweaked, no doubt, but otherwise, with respect to the current state of FW, "close enough" right now actually is...

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.22 18:01:00 - [118]
 

Edited by: X Gallentius on 22/06/2011 18:13:19
lol, here's an idea. Re-frame FW to fit reality of low sec, balance NPCs, etc...

FW is really a proxy war between empires. CONCORD, in its interest of keeping high sec free from war, has brokered a deal. The empires can fight each other in low sec, but are not allowed to fight each other in high sec.

However, the empires do not have the resources to deploy into low sec and therefore they have set up militias to do this for them. This is a proxy war.

(free war dec) Corporations in FW are privateers and are given letters of marque by CONCORD (through the NPC militia alliances) to go shoot kill opposing militia members anywhere in New Eden.

(limits in high sec movement) The letter of marque forbids militias to enter opposing militias high sec, but it is up to the Empire navies to enforce this rule.

(missions) In addition to killing opponents, the militia office also gives out missions deep in enemy space. But paying FW members comes at a price, they have had to reduce patrols in their low sec systems.

(Occupancy War) The populations in FW low sec (perhaps all of low sec (and perhaps 0.0 NPC space if you want to carry it that far), however, are more concerned about protection from NPC pirates than this proxy war. They're going to pledge their allegiance to whoever protects them the most - whether it is a given militia, pirate corp, or non-sov holding alliances (hell why not sov holding alliances). Plexes in FW space change from Empire driven plexes to NPC pirate occupied plexes - Serpentis in Gallente space, Guristas in Caldari space. Instead of timer, the plex is won by whoever kills the most NPC pirates. Otherwise it shows up on overview as always. Nobody goes GCC inside these plexes because it's understood by all that this is a war zone. These plexes can still be used for ship-limited pvp!

Anomolies, dens, etc.. also count (inside and outside of FW areas, they do not show up on overview), but you still go GCC if you are not at war (same as always).

The entity that clears out the most plexes over a given 30 day period is called the Occupier. Your e-peen is huge. Station services in these systems are reduced in price for occupying corporation.

This way, low sec and NPC 0.0 occupancy e-peen is opened to all. The ILF, IRED, CVA, and all rp alliances could contribute to the low sec sov game and still maintain their warped rp identities, etc...


Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2011.06.22 18:16:00 - [119]
 

Edited by: Mutnin on 22/06/2011 18:17:24
Originally by: Von Kroll
Edited by: Von Kroll on 22/06/2011 17:31:13
@Hirana, what we're looking for is competitive PvP. I think that's a different metric than "fair". Fair is t-ball leagues where people don't keep score. Competitive is a fight that's "winnable" by either side, depending on the skill and acumen of the FC and his team. Everybody wants to win and get lots of kills, but no one, long-term, will stay interested in clubbing baby seals.

One thing that impacts all of this is how much isk the player pilots have in their respective wallets. If everyone has a fat wallet, they're eager to fight and potentially lose ships, and futhermore, they can sustain losing ships. FW missions give people the ability to create isk locally, without having to run off to high-sec. Personal pilot wealth is extremely important when corps/alliances live in low-sec because the corp/alliance doesn't have the same mechanics available to null-sec alliances to control and exploit the resources available. While there is a considerable amount of wealth available in FW space, its tougher for the FW corps to exploit them. Having personal wealth potential available is very important. To be honest, I could care less what mechanic is used to provide that potential to the individual pilot, as long as we have one. I think its foolish to assume though, that any mechanic that gets implemented, will be one that some non-FW player can't exploit. Null-sec alliances get farmed all the time. I'm sure as Incursions mature, someone will find a way to exploit them as well.

Anyway, I think overall, there's a decent balance right now. There are things that need to be tweaked, no doubt, but otherwise, with respect to the current state of FW, "close enough" right now actually is...


For the most part I can agree with this.. When I look at gang fights, I'm typically only interested if the other side can bring a decent fight. It's not much fun to just gank people, hence the reason I've always hated blobs.

On the other hand if the other side is capable of bringing a fight then I have no issue with joining a gang. I also think there are many whom will continue to club baby seals as long as they can because there are a lot of guys you will never see out side of a over powering blob.

Look how most gate camping low sec corps work or even large alliances. Not many of them are looking for decent fights, they are looking to farm KM's or gank the other side. Meaning FW has opportunity to provide what no other part of EVE is able to and that's fairly equal or competitive PVP.

As for the ISK and FW missions I think Von hit on something there. Active players in FW probably PVP on average much more than most null sec players. This means we burn through a lot of ISK and our corps do not have the ISK sources that Null sec alliances have that allow them to offer up ship replacement programs and so on.

TBH, the entire time I've played FW, I've never heard of any corp that offered a ship replacement program. While maybe they exist, it would be extremely rare, meanwhile it's pretty common out in null. This means it's much more important that players have personal ISK source that can keep up with the ship loss demands.

For the most part in FW the only time a player gets help on ship replacements, is from the gangs they are part of and that's typically given in loot from ship kills from that gang. However that's not always the case and more often than not it's the player that is comping the bill.

Bad Messenger
draketrain
Posted - 2011.06.23 00:17:00 - [120]
 

Originally by: Mutnin

TBH, the entire time I've played FW, I've never heard of any corp that offered a ship replacement program.



When draketrain was in militia we had 100% reimbursement for ship losses that happened in fleet ops. You even got insurance money for yourself so losing ships gave you more isk.


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