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Tarryn Nightstorm
Minmatar
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
Posted - 2011.06.17 05:42:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Aria Jenneth
Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 17/06/2011 02:15:33
Mr. Nightstorm:

I like your view of "gods" tremendously. Generally, I fight hard against any use of the term to apply to us, but for you I'll make an exception.

... Well, almost.

Your description works well for what we're in danger of becoming. Best pray to the gods (or Elders, or just to "luck") that we don't get firmly socketed into that spot. We're sadly corporeal, unpleasantly fallible, inconveniently mortal, and therefore can expect the same life expectancy as "gods" as an ant trying to carry a high-voltage current.

Originally by: Tarryn Nightstorm
I despair of us ending any better than any Gods ever have:

Discarded and forgotten once our usefulness has ended. Mankind has done this with every single God that ever was, is, or ever will be.


The Amarrian god has been around for what I understand to be at least seven thousand years, if we just count back to the foundation of the Empire. We should be so lucky as to be discarded after such a good run.

Incidentally, while I also do not consider myself "human" and tend to argue with those who say otherwise, I think in our case the issue would be down to semantics.

... With respect to ourselves, anyway. I may think slightly better of human beings than you do.


I'm a salvager, ma'am (Feel free to use my given name, by the way):

I'd like to think I had a better view of people, once, but that was before the first time I got a good look at what my salvage-beams and drones brought into my Vigil's holds. Most of our pod-optimised frigates can be flown and fought single-handed, at least in a pinch. This is not the case for larger ships as we all know, and flash-searing followed by explosive decompression is...not a kind or clean thing.

I see the ultimate result of so many of us hurling our "divine" (snicker) lightning-bolts about at whim...It's the damndest thing, but every time I do, I get this inescapable image of that fat, mean, spoiled kid we all hated whilst growing up; You know, the one who got a kick out of pulling the wings off flies, and crowing about it.

I think about flies often, and how we really compare to them. And how it would be for us if our clone-contracts were revoked, our implants removed, our piloting-licenses revoked, and how easily all this could be done.

It's a particularly hilarious irony that so much of our "Godhood" is given to us, as a privilege, by others, eh? Privileges can be taken away by those who grant them anytime--too many of us are afraid to admit this, but that doesn't make it any less true, nor yet that we exist because we are needed, by others, for their--often base and deplorable--ends, not because we actualised ourselves to this level (this is as good an operational definition of "transcendence," as any I can think of, btw.).

My point:

We're not special, we're just...enhanced, for a purpose, and expected to submit ourselves to same for those that enhance us. Theoretically--though that's reaching a bit, I grant you--almost anyone could be what we are.

The source of my less-than-charitable view of people in general, and why I think podders need to get the f**k over themselves:

1)So much of what so many of us do seems to be motivated--the actual motivation, I mean, not the sweet little lies and delusions we spin for ourselves--by a puling fear of finding that we really are just more flies, there just hasn't come a kid strong enough to pull our wings off yet.

2)We have just enough power to over-compensate most...convincingly...for (1), and the cluster's population ensures a practically unlimited supply of flies--at least flies weaker than our flavour of same--to divert us from having to face how insignificant we really are.

That's why so many of us revel in violence and murder: Simple over-compensation ugh

(Tarryn smiles darkly...He's still grinning as the camera shuts off)

Kentt Em'asep
Minmatar
Sec Det 125
Posted - 2011.06.17 06:20:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Kentt Em''asep on 17/06/2011 06:20:53
Heh, I like your image of a wingless fly Tarryn. We can defiantly be viewed as that once our implants are forced out and we are rendered useless. But yes, I myself think that our near inabilaty to die makes us risk takers. We hurl ourselfs into a fight, not thinking about our lives like an everyday human would think... but how much ISK we might loose if it turns out bad for us.

Speaking of flys... looks down at his signature and chuckles.

Nola Doyle
NeuroGEN
Posted - 2011.06.17 06:32:00 - [33]
 

CONCORD, the alleged referees of capsuleers, encourages this behavior by rewarding your mayhem and destruction with treasures and baubles. It is nothing more than a giant corpse grinder upon which countless people, innocent and otherwise, are sacrificed to ensure your obedience to it. When you misbehave, more bodies will be required to sate its hunger and absolve you of your crimes. It is the price others pay to maintain the blood market maintained by the SCC, in what looks to be a perpetual waste of human life for what your empires label prosperity.

Some might call it progress. I call it an atrocity.

Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2011.06.17 07:12:00 - [34]
 

Ms. Doyle:

An accurate description, though I suspect few will consider you a reasonable arbiter of what makes an atrocity, considering your loyalty to Sansha's Nation.


Tarryn:

Originally by: Tarryn Nightstorm
... pulling the wings off flies....


Now that's an analogy I don't agree with.

A child pulling the wings off a fly is delighting in cruelty. We capsuleers rarely even think of the cruelty of our actions unless the target is another capsuleer, and often not even then.

The target is the ship. The deaths of those within are simply byproducts.

Quote:
... how it would be for us if our clone-contracts were revoked, our implants removed, our piloting-licenses revoked, and how easily all this could be done.


We are more vulnerable than many of us care to admit, yes.

Quote:
We're not special, we're just...enhanced, for a purpose, and expected to submit ourselves to same for those that enhance us.


"Special?" That depends on how you define it.

I don't consider us greater than humanity, but I do believe we differ from it. I have six bodies I can switch almost freely between, but not one of them is "mine."

The human of whom I am a nearly exact copy died years ago. "I" am a copied blot of information impressed on a corpsemeat and osteoplastic simulacrum.

Quote:
Theoretically--though that's reaching a bit, I grant you--almost anyone could be what we are.


Given the ability to handle pod control without (at best) losing their lunch or (at worst) wetgraving or going into mind-lock, perhaps that's so.

Few, however, take the risk. Fewer graduate.

Quote:
1)So much of what so many of us do seems to be motivated--the actual motivation, I mean, not the sweet little lies and delusions we spin for ourselves--by a puling fear of finding that we really are just more flies, there just hasn't come a kid strong enough to pull our wings off yet.


Oh, I know who the "kid" is, and much of my work revolves around trying not to make him think we deserve to have our wings pulled.

Quote:
Simple over-compensation


Again, I disagree. If we were simply trying to compensate for our fragility, we'd have more thought for those we kill, even if those thoughts were only of wanton cruelty.

We don't.

If there's evil cackling, even from pirates, it's about the capsuleer they've just deshipped and sent on to his next incarnation, not the poor fools who worked for him. It's not that we like making victims of hapless humans. It's that their lives, and deaths, barely register in our minds at all.

Evet Morrel
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.06.17 09:53:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Evet Morrel on 17/06/2011 10:52:07

The problem in many conflicts is the failure of new recruits to hate the enemy enough, or to want to kill the enemy, or even to shoot weapons at the enemy. Usually much effort is spent on removing the moral responsibility for the decision: for the killing, and moral agency is effectively delegated away to remote individuals we can all safely loath, but in the end we created them. There are very few things one can regard as natural human behaviour outside of a particular context, or set of conditions, in that respect I think Nola is right, the system is responsible, context creates our reality. Behaviour is dependent on everything else. If you attempt to find essentials outside of context all that appears solid melts into air.

Contemplating Empire

Myyona
Minmatar
Ataraxia Pharmacies
Posted - 2011.06.17 12:48:00 - [36]
 

As maiming and wanton destruction seems to be an easy path for a capsuleer a few of us have selected the harder option of not going down that path.

Throwing philosophy-light phrases around is easy though.Smile

Tigerfish Torpedo
Underworld Protection Agency
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.06.17 13:13:00 - [37]
 

I personally resort to bloodshed and violence when I need to make a point or get something done that would ordinarily remain incomplete, or not finished to a satisfactory level.

The thought of peaceful conflict resolution is an alien concept to me - or was until last week when I promised a beautiful and kind loyalist that I'd not commit any wicked acts nor kill another without good cause.

Aparently 'because I felt like it' isn't a suitable reason to kill your crew!

Tigerfish

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.06.17 13:20:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Aravias
So you view chaos, greed, and murder for hire as the better alternative to a passive society?


Most "passive societies" are those in which the state has a monopoly on violence and power monsieur Aravias (see the true slaves of Sansha, the slave plantations of Amarr for examples). Are you arguing that it is better for the state to hold this monopoly rather than allowing individuals to hold power?

Quote:
You wish for your supposed "freedom" so much that you would, and do, allow wanton violence to be committed?


Creativity and innovation can be considered intellectually "violent" monsieur, most change in the fabric of the status quo can be considered thus. The machines we used to rip ourselves free of the gravity wells of our homeworlds were retasked warmachines subverted by our notions of escape from the passivity of stasis.

Quote:
... Is it truly a free society when you must arm yourself at great length to be safe?


How can it be otherwise? An individual can have no freedom if the collective power of the state is armed and he is not. There is no freedom without power. There is no negotiation without equality, there is no independence without mutual respect. It is a reality of our existence that we do not respect the weak.

Quote:
MUST freedom come at the cost of countless innocent lives?


Yes. Our freedoms are bought with these lives given heroically in the pursuit of freedoms and to quote an old and very wise lyric ...

No rights were ever given to us by the grace of God
No rights were ever given by some benign Nations clause
No rights were ever given by some nice guy at the top
Our rights they were bought by all the blood
And all the tears of all our
Grandmothers, grandfathers before

Quote:
You misinterpret what freedom is as you staunchly seek to defend it. Furthermore, I stated no where that I intended to force this belief upon people for I am without the power to do so. I posed a moral and philosophical question that you obviously have no answer to. In essence, my question is encased within an old qoute, "Why is it that, as a culture, we are more comfortable seeing two men holding guns than holding hands?"



Speak for yourself my friend. I see no threat in men holding hands, but show me a government armed with assault rifles and I arm myself in full knowledge of the violence they intend against my freedoms and personal sovereignity.

Evet Morrel
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.06.17 16:07:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Evet Morrel on 17/06/2011 16:18:08

Originally by: Myyona
As maiming and wanton destruction seems to be an easy path for a capsuleer a few of us have selected the harder option of not going down that path.

Throwing philosophy-light phrases around is easy though.Smile


Not quite as easy as that complaint Smile. Myyona good for you tackling the symptoms – but it's a sticking plaster isn't it, you're fire fighting, but of course we need fighter fighters even in an anarchist utopia.

Counter Insurgency

Millie Clode
Amarr
Insert Cool Name Here
Posted - 2011.06.17 16:37:00 - [40]
 

In an environment where physical death is just a passing inconvenience bloodshed ceases to have any real meaning.

We are functionally immortal, amusing ourselves by blowing each other up ad nauseam seems only natural.

Eleena Wolf
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.17 19:12:00 - [41]
 

Perhaps it is due to external as well as internal reasons we resort to violence, competition for limited resources has remained a constant through human history. Personal greed seems to have started more than few wars. Perhaps its just something to effect of highly territorial nature that has haunted the bloodlines of the modern equivalent of "Alphas" as well those whose lines follow a pack/herd mentality. could any of these be the reason? Could none of these be the reason? I know not. For now I would like to believe it is largely due to external reasons like natural disasters.

Arista Shahni
Amarr
Murasaki Mining and Manufacturing
Posted - 2011.06.17 21:21:00 - [42]
 

Any 'new territory' is going to have 'wanton violence'.

Once the territory is no longer new, it becomes simply 'directed violence' and people can throw their judgement then as they please.

Keep in mind the number of 'lives' as it were that a capsuleer gets to witness atrocities through - living through far more tragedies - even injecting themselves into tragedy prone areas because of the lack of ultimate danger - and you'll see our views of 'widespread violence' are skewed at best.

Space is, actually, relatively peaceful. Depends ultimately where you choose (or where your corporation or government chooses for you) to fly.

As others have pointed out, there will always be violence.

As other have pointed out, capsuleers are tools to combat - and by the act of this combat to perpetuate - violence.

I knew this when I signed up at the Imperial Academy. There were no false pretenses as to what a capsuleer's life would be. Harsh, and as long as the signals reached the right consoles, functionally eternal.

I chuckle when I see capsuleers refer to themselves as gods.

Officially, that title would in the hands of the Cloning engineers.

We're not Gods. We're Pawns, placed on a game board again, again, and again, until someone in a fancy or sacred and esteemed office on a station 40 jumps away decides it is time for Capsuleer X to die their last death, and at that moment instead of reviving elsewhere they end up biomassed, end of story.

Maybe I'm jaded, but hell, at least it is in a more relistic direction.

Tarryn Nightstorm
Minmatar
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
Posted - 2011.06.17 21:37:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Tarryn Nightstorm on 17/06/2011 21:45:26
Originally by: Millie Clode
We are functionally immortal, amusing ourselves by blowing each other up ad nauseam seems only natural.


"Ooooooh, look at the pretty urp-splosion!" Doesn't that get boring after a while? It did for me. It's all so, so, ****ing BORING...

But I've implied it above--we're nothing more than tools, optimisied for a purpose; Given that it's, well, you know, someone else's purpose, for that someone's own agenda, then I suppose intellectual depth on most of our parts would be a bit of an inconvenience. Wouldn't it.Wink

I heard somewhere that the ancients had a saying about this sort of thing, something about distracting people from thinking too much with "bread and circuses..."

Evet Morrel
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.06.17 21:48:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Evet Morrel on 18/06/2011 03:28:32
format & typo
Edited by: Evet Morrel on 17/06/2011 21:48:43

Originally by: Eleena Wolf
Perhaps it is due to external as well as internal reasons we resort to violence, competition for limited resources has remained a constant through human history. Personal greed seems to have started more than few wars. Perhaps its just something to effect of highly territorial nature that has haunted the bloodlines of the modern equivalent of "Alphas" as well those whose lines follow a pack/herd mentality. could any of these be the reason? Could none of these be the reason? I know not. For now I would like to believe it is largely due to external reasons like natural disasters.


I too won't believe it, because the alternative is to admit a primate superstition, that insists we're born either to rule or serve; that all is writ large in our genes; that killing is primal, and not the last resort of the incompetent; that the only effective way to communicate is genetic; that our violence has nothing to do with the rewards of regard, money, purpose, or frustration; we need not believe it because the rewards for violence are not inconsequential.

That's the thing, you don't need to deny the rational propensity to utilise resources efficiently to solve problems, or the need to defend yourself against threats real and psychological, that's all in the system – the size of states, and the distribution of resources are limited only in relation to the way they are organized, that's a huge unnatural disaster - we're trapped in a local attractor of bigger fleets and more ships. Under those conditions there can never be enough of anything, can there?

Tarryn Nightstorm
Minmatar
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
Posted - 2011.06.17 22:28:00 - [45]
 

Musings on your response, Aria, in no particular order, and may occasionally wander a bit...(Smiles: I do so love fine, deep convo by the way. Whatever happened to that on the Summit, anyway?)

Quote:
Given the ability to handle pod control without (at best) losing their lunch or (at worst) wetgraving or going into mind-lock, perhaps that's so.

Few, however, take the risk. Fewer graduate.

Oh, I know who the "kid" is, and much of my work revolves around trying not to make him think we deserve to have our wings pulled.


So maybe more should? One way you can deal with a "bully" is to have greater numbers, after all. 2-3 smaller kids vs. each bigger one usually doesn't end well for the bigger kid if my own schoolyard experiences are anything to go by. And if we're thinking of the same "kid," then he is much bigger than any one of us, indeed...

Besides, most people only "whistle breakfast" and need to change their underwear the first half-dozen or so times! Cool

As for..well, let's call it "combat-detachment:"

Yeah, that's how I was taught, too, right from the first time I buckled into a simulator: It's just the other "machine," a "target" that must be "neutralised," and you use your "machine" to do so.

I guess that's why I prefer frigate-sized craft. It really is (usually) just you and the machine, then, no worries. And no letters of condolence to be written if things go pear-shaped...(sighs angrily) You can't shut the mind off...And my mind always shows me their faces, not accusing, not judging, just...looking. I wish they'd just bloody well stop looking at me, damn them all.

Ya know, it's funny:

But for an accident of genetics--one that, I suspect, can fairly easily be replicated (ref.: That ****ing lunatic Kuvakei and his ready-made pod-pilots suddenly turning up out of seemingly nowhere about a year ago. Where did all those podders come from so quickly, and that's not even considering things like SlaveHeavenbound002 and that lot)--that allowed my stomach to be stronger and my synapses to fire faster than average, then the subject of one of those letters could have easily been me. Or any other podder I know....I would have gone to space, no matter what--even if it meant being the janitor on a beat-to-**** old non-pod-controlled Burst.

I think the same is true of a lot of us. The Great Dark...somehow, somewhere, some way, we allow it into us, to own us, and do so happily. Being some rich parasites' tool is a small enough price to pay for this, for most of us, innit.

Originally by: Aria Jenneth
Again, I disagree. If we were simply trying to compensate for our fragility, we'd have more thought for those we kill, even if those thoughts were only of wanton cruelty.


Disagree:

Those who over-compensate typically are so focussed on it--on using that to convince themselves of whatever they're trying to convince themselves of--that they don't think about anything else. If any "cruelty" occurs to them, it's typically after the fact, as it were. And then, only if, on some level, they're reasonably sure that their minds won't speak up about...other things. You can't shut the mind off, or make it be quiet: That's why we do so many of the things we do, that's why so many of us use drugs and become addicts, to name just one "temporary silencer..."

Tarryn Nightstorm
Minmatar
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
Posted - 2011.06.17 23:21:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Arista Shahni
I chuckle when I see capsuleers refer to themselves as gods.

Officially, that title would in the hands of the Cloning engineers.

We're not Gods. We're Pawns, placed on a game board again, again, and again, until someone in a fancy or sacred and esteemed office on a station 40 jumps away decides it is time for Capsuleer X to die their last death, and at that moment instead of reviving elsewhere they end up biomassed, end of story.

Maybe I'm jaded, but hell, at least it is in a more relistic direction.


This, basically. It's just that we have more nice distractions--tastier, more expensive "bread," and more opulent, bigger and louder "circuses" to distract us from our real lot in life.

That doesn't change who your daddy really is, and who's b*tch you ultimately are:

Have any of you ever even seen the senior clone-technician at your home medical-station, let alone met him/her?

Yeah, me either.

Would you really want to?

Yeah, me neither.

A lot of people have trouble facing that which they know proves them to be as insignificant as they actually are, after all, that's simple human nature.

Enjoy what you've been given, make the most of it, for such freedom is so, so precious, and so indescribably wonderful...But never forget, it is a privilege. Not a right, not a gift, not an entitlement, a privilege. One that can always be taken away.

An actual deity, I suspect, doesn't have to be "Daddy's *****" on any level, now does he/she/it?

Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
Posted - 2011.06.18 00:55:00 - [47]
 

Pilot Aravias,

I think we have some things in common. I have also dwelled on these questions, and I still do from time to time.
I feel inclined to offer you a new "home", for I suspect you will be searching for one soon, like I have, if you aren't already searching. So far, I have not found that home, so I created one for myself. Perhaps it will suit you as well, perhaps not. In my movement life is valued.

Whether you'd join me or not, I am more than willing to exchange thoughts with you, perhaps we can help eachother put our minds at ease. Let's have a drink sometime.

Peace,

-Chι Biko

Nola Doyle
NeuroGEN
Posted - 2011.06.18 02:12:00 - [48]
 

Aria Jenneth,
Originally by: Aria Jenneth
Ms. Doyle:

An accurate description, though I suspect few will consider you a reasonable arbiter of what makes an atrocity, considering your loyalty to Sansha's Nation.


The public doesn't need to rely on my word alone; they can reach the same conclusion by pausing to consider how many lives are lost at the hands of capsuleers for profit and the loyalty of the empires that employ them on a daily basis. In the free market, ISK is the sole arbiter of power in the interstellar economy, with CONCORD happily employing capsule pilots to rid those they deem as enemies with bounty rewards. The death of millions ensures the empires and CONCORD remain the rightful overlords in this system and capsule pilots as their enforcers; Personally, I find it hard to imagine anything more atrocious than this system.

Not that I would expect an individual such as yourself to empathize. The individuals you choose to represent and ally yourself with in the Angel Cartel happily exploit this system and the vices of men for reckless personal gain.

Eleena Wolf
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.18 03:30:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 21/06/2011 02:27:42
Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 18/06/2011 04:20:37
Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 18/06/2011 04:15:42
Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 18/06/2011 03:45:52
Originally by: Evet Morrel
Edited by: Evet Morrel on 17/06/2011 21:48:43

I too won't believe it, because the alternative is to admit a primate superstition that insists that we're either born to rule or serve. That all is writ large in our genes. That the rewards are inconsequential and that killing is primal, and not the last resort of the incompetent. That the only effective way to communicate is genetic. That our violence has nothing to do with the rewards of regard, money, purpose, or frustration. Because that's the thing, you don't need to deny the rational propensity to utilise resources efficiently to solve problems, or the need to defend yourself against threats real and psychological because that's all in the system and its organisation – the size of states, and the distribution of resources are limited only in relation to the way they are organized, that's a huge unnatural disaster - we're trapped in a local attractor of bigger fleets and more ships. Under those conditions there can never be enough of anything, can there?


Well perhaps it is the genes that affect how minds of people have developed over generations compounded by external stimuli. Reacting to external threats still triggers that primal survival mechanism, only that over the course of time our survival response of fight or flight is no longer defined as simply as it once was. What if our survival instincts were altered in such way that fight or flight became in our current case, kill, be killed, kill again.

Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2011.06.18 04:58:00 - [50]
 

Ms. Doyle:

Originally by: Nola Doyle
Not that I would expect an individual such as yourself to empathize.


Empathize, no. Recognize as a potentially deadly problem, yes.


Tarryn:

Originally by: Tarryn Nightstorm
I do so love fine, deep convo by the way. Whatever happened to that on the Summit, anyway?


Some of it, at least, moved to the New Eden Assembly channel. It's a bit quiet in there, presently, but of course it's in every visitor's power to change that.

Quote:
And if we're thinking of the same "kid," then he is much bigger than any one of us, indeed...


The "kid" in my view is humanity, as a species. And it's consequently bigger than any of us individually or all of us together.

Quote:
As for..well, let's call it "combat-detachment:"

Yeah, that's how I was taught, too, right from the first time I buckled into a simulator: It's just the other "machine," a "target" that must be "neutralised," and you use your "machine" to do so.


Mm. No; that's something soldiers get taught. But the soldier's path is not ours. Not to say that we don't get the same training, but capsuleer dementia is another creature entirely. This is best demonstrated by contrast.

As one who researches this subject, and one of the Demented, myself, (though not the most bloodthirsty,) I've spent quite a lot of time examining and analyzing my own reactions. Comparing them to a few of yours....

Quote:
And no letters of condolence to be written if things go pear-shaped...


I never write these. My personnel manager might, but I haven't specifically instructed her to. It's not that I don't understand what the families are going through; it's that I don't care.

Quote:
You can't shut the mind off...And my mind always shows me their faces, not accusing, not judging, just...looking. I wish they'd just bloody well stop looking at me, damn them all.


It seems safe to say that you are not one of the Demented.

For my own part, my ability to be affected by the deaths of others, whether my own crew or not, simply does not exist. I cannot bring myself to care, and I did once nearly drive myself mad trying.

I can play the part, but all I can feel from that part of myself is the absence of a feeling that once existed there. To the degree this is true of other Demented, you could think of us as emotional amputees.

It's not that I lack emotions. It's that, where humans are concerned, I feel neither empathy nor guilt. The fact that there seem to be so many others like me is my reason for fearing the reactions of humanity as a whole.

Quote:
The Great Dark...somehow, somewhere, some way, we allow it into us, to own us, and do so happily. Being some rich parasites' tool is a small enough price to pay for this, for most of us, innit.


I call it the Black-- timeless, uncaring, inimical to life. In those under the effects of capsuleer dementia, it seems to whisper to us. We not only are called to it, as you suggest, but also come to resemble it.

And as reluctant as I am to be the weapon used by some humans for murdering others, that may very well be our proper role in the scheme of things.

Quote:
Those who over-compensate typically are so focussed on it--on using that to convince themselves of whatever they're trying to convince themselves of--that they don't think about anything else.


Hm. In my experience, combat fits under two general headings.

Against capsuleers: tension, excitement, fear, the thrill of the hunt. I imagine wolves experience the same, pursuing dangerous prey. I haven't done this nearly enough.

Against conventional ships: mild concern if there are any tackle-capable enemies, then boredom. I check the market, read the day's news, or engage others in conversation. I've had nearly this same conversation with others while slaughtering several thousand humans that I'm having with you, now.

Killing humans-- just humans-- is rarely the focus of my thoughts even when killing them.

Boma Airaken
Seekers of a Silent Paradise
Posted - 2011.06.18 07:50:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Tigerfish Torpedo
I personally resort to bloodshed and violence when I need to make a point or get something done that would ordinarily remain incomplete, or not finished to a satisfactory level.

The thought of peaceful conflict resolution is an alien concept to me - or was until last week when I promised a beautiful and kind loyalist that I'd not commit any wicked acts nor kill another without good cause.

Aparently 'because I felt like it' isn't a suitable reason to kill your crew!

Tigerfish


My old friend and one time mentor has a point. Sometime the only way to solve a problem is the killing of the problem. Degenerating this discussion into talk about crew is ridiculous. They know what they signed up for, and the murder of a capsuleer is a temporary setback that proves a ****ing point. They used to say "sometimes you just have to kill a mother****er". Once that became impossible, there is no difference between killing a capsuleer and sending them a ****ing love letter.

Evet Morrel
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.06.18 09:28:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Evet Morrel on 18/06/2011 09:29:42
Originally by: Eleena Wolf
Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 18/06/2011 04:20:37
Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 18/06/2011 04:15:42
Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 18/06/2011 03:45:52
Originally by: Evet Morrel
Edited by: Evet Morrel on 17/06/2011 21:48:43

I too won't believe it, because the alternative is to admit a primate superstition that insists that we're either born to rule or serve. That all is writ large in our genes. That the rewards are inconsequential and that killing is primal, and not the last resort of the incompetent. That the only effective way to communicate is genetic. That our violence has nothing to do with the rewards of regard, money, purpose, or frustration. Because that's the thing, you don't need to deny the rational propensity to utilise resources efficiently to solve problems, or the need to defend yourself against threats real and psychological because that's all in the system and its organisation – the size of states, and the distribution of resources are limited only in relation to the way they are organized, that's a huge unnatural disaster - we're trapped in a local attractor of bigger fleets and more ships. Under those conditions there can never be enough of anything, can there?


Well perhaps it is the genes that affect how minds of have people developed over generations compounded by external stimuli. Reacting to external threats still triggers that primal survival mechanism, only that over the course of time our survival response of fight or flight is no longer defined as simply as it once was. What if our survival instincts were altered in such way that fight or flight became in our current case, kill, be killed, kill again.


Interesting, yes genes are a record of the successful coexistence of agency and environment. However, the danger is producing tautological arguments that rest on themselves concerning such things as human behavior. I don't deny the problem solving capacity of human passion or the power of selection to solve problems that would be absurd. There are ironies, of course genes can often produce a phenotype that attempts to prevent violence, think of the Stag Beetle's antlers. Even in humans it helps to have a little brain damage to be really good at violence. Anyway I have a problem with the lazy tendency to find the source of failure in human society in the underlying hardware rather than in its assumptions and rationalisation about itself and how we might otherwise live. I suspect this is where Nola and I would disagree.

This amused the reductio determinists in me: with the discovery of cooking we removed those genes responsible for the digestion of raw food from our genome: we created an external stomach simplifying our genes. This example is powerful and could be effectively taken a lot further, the point is that even though the problem is there, the body of theory, technology and practice of cooking its failures and successes, its diversity can't be uncovered by analyzing our ancestors genes.

Eleena Wolf
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.18 14:38:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 19/06/2011 05:36:46
Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 18/06/2011 15:08:24
Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 18/06/2011 14:41:41
Originally by: Evet Morrel
Edited by: Evet Morrel on 18/06/2011 09:29:42
Originally by: Eleena Wolf
Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 18/06/2011 04:20:37
Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 18/06/2011 04:15:42
Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 18/06/2011 03:45:52
Originally by: Evet Morrel
Edited by: Evet Morrel on 17/06/2011 21:48:43

I too won't believe it, because the alternative is to admit a primate superstition that insists that we're either born to rule or serve. That all is writ large in our genes. That the rewards are inconsequential and that killing is primal, and not the last resort of the incompetent. That the only effective way to communicate is genetic. That our violence has nothing to do with the rewards of regard, money, purpose, or frustration. Because that's the thing, you don't need to deny the rational propensity to utilise resources efficiently to solve problems, or the need to defend yourself against threats real and psychological because that's all in the system and its organisation – the size of states, and the distribution of resources are limited only in relation to the way they are organized, that's a huge unnatural disaster - we're trapped in a local attractor of bigger fleets and more ships. Under those conditions there can never be enough of anything, can there?


Well perhaps it is the genes that affect how minds of have people developed over generations compounded by external stimuli. Reacting to external threats still triggers that primal survival mechanism, only that over the course of time our survival response of fight or flight is no longer defined as simply as it once was. What if our survival instincts were altered in such way that fight or flight became in our current case, kill, be killed, kill again.


Interesting, yes genes are a record of the successful coexistence of agency and environment. However, the danger is producing tautological arguments that rest on themselves concerning such things as human behavior. I don't deny the problem solving capacity of human passion or the power of selection to solve problems that would be absurd. There are ironies, of course genes can often produce a phenotype that attempts to prevent violence, think of the Stag Beetle's antlers. Even in humans it helps to have a little brain damage to be really good at violence. Anyway I have a problem with the lazy tendency to find the source of failure in human society in the underlying hardware rather than in its assumptions and rationalisation about itself and how we might otherwise live. I suspect this is where Nola and I would disagree.

This amused the reductio determinists in me: with the discovery of cooking we removed those genes responsible for the digestion of raw food from our genome: we created an external stomach simplifying our genes. This example is powerful and could be effectively taken a lot further, the point is that even though the problem is there, the body of theory, technology and practice of cooking its failures and successes, its diversity can't be uncovered by analyzing our ancestors genes.


Mayhap we simply read too much into violence. Our ancestors surely faced the same problems and somehow managed to not kill off the species.

Evet Morrel
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.06.19 23:58:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Eleena Wolf
Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 19/06/2011 05:36:46
Mayhap we simply read too much into violence. Our ancestors surely faced the same problems and somehow managed to not kill off the species.


Exactly the kind of thinking I was talking about. You may know this, but it is clear from the lack of genetic diversity that we've come through an evolutionary bottleneck. There are estimates that at one time we were reduced to around 1000-10,000 breeding pairs. Theory suggests that we are all so alike because we share these survivors' DNA. We are so alike in fact that most species have more genetic diversity between siblings in the same family group than there are between any two humans alive. This has nothing to do with human violence that I know of.

We're more independent than we've ever been - longer lived etc. all our capacities have expanded. Yet we're providing security to mega corporations in support of the economies of scale necessary to produce the profit to support that security,this is a hopelessly circular trap. The model isn't producing the innovation characteristic of hyper capitalism though. The problem is these huge mega corps aren't having to surrender market share to more efficient manufactures who came to the table later and paid less for the latest in manufacturing tec. The spoils are going to those that are better at killing the competition, that's the dynamic - and for the moment the best tactic is numbers.

Arista Shahni
Amarr
Murasaki Mining and Manufacturing
Posted - 2011.06.20 01:01:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Arista Shahni on 20/06/2011 01:02:15
As interstellar nations have risen from the numbers that would occupy a mid-sized town and based on the common menthod of human reproduction, I suspect the human condition actually lends itself more toward non-violence than violence. Based on the numbers of course.

Again, our viewpoints will eternally be skewed simply because we are capsuleers. If you are a soldier during wartime, war will dominate your days. The vast majority of humanity, in all of its forms, are not soldiers.

((edited for transmission errors))

Manwe Todako
Minmatar
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.06.20 03:19:00 - [56]
 

Discussion is one thing, action is another. If you are a capsuleer and want to show yourself a serious person of peace, consider becoming a Disciple of Ston. The work we do is non-violent. Everything we do, we do without weapons. Our work requires the strength of self-control. Our only combat is against our inner flaws, to defeat them. We work to help people overcome their addiction to violence, greed, spite, insult, and incivility. In New Eden, you will find no more difficult work than this work of peace. Are you courageous enough to do such work?

Aravias
Posted - 2011.06.20 03:46:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Manwe Todako
Discussion is one thing, action is another. If you are a capsuleer and want to show yourself a serious person of peace, consider becoming a Disciple of Ston. The work we do is non-violent. Everything we do, we do without weapons. Our work requires the strength of self-control. Our only combat is against our inner flaws, to defeat them. We work to help people overcome their addiction to violence, greed, spite, insult, and incivility. In New Eden, you will find no more difficult work than this work of peace. Are you courageous enough to do such work?

No, I could not imagine living a life without violence at this point, a situation, as my initial transmission shows I often question yet cannot stop. It is, as many other capsuleers said here my lifeblood but I sent in my transmission with hope for perhaps some answers to why we truly do this. I did find them, though none were theories that I had not already thought of. Perhaps I sought too deep an answer or perhaps there truly is none that will satisfy me. As for now, I am over that moment of despair and I know, once again, I must shrug off this doubt in order to do my work, my work of violence that I often abhor but subconsciously enjoy. I am confused....
(The camera fades with Aravias in a state of confusion but as it finally pans out he appears resolved.)

Arista Shahni
Amarr
Murasaki Mining and Manufacturing
Posted - 2011.06.20 04:35:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Aravias

No, I could not imagine living a life without violence at this point, a situation, as my initial transmission shows I often question yet cannot stop. It is, as many other capsuleers said here my lifeblood but I sent in my transmission with hope for perhaps some answers to why we truly do this. I did find them, though none were theories that I had not already thought of. Perhaps I sought too deep an answer or perhaps there truly is none that will satisfy me. As for now, I am over that moment of despair and I know, once again, I must shrug off this doubt in order to do my work, my work of violence that I often abhor but subconsciously enjoy. I am confused....
(The camera fades with Aravias in a state of confusion but as it finally pans out he appears resolved.)


(Arista sighs. There is the melodic chime of scanner probe audio signals in the background.)

There's no point in lamenting that you can not be a flower when you were born as a thorn. There is a personal sacrifice that we make to fulfill the purpose we were born for. You are what you are, forged for a purpose known only to God, and part of learning to reach God, however you percieve the Divine, is the need to learn that sacrifice is built into the very fiber of all of us as we struggle as a still divided whole to reach unity.

(She shakes her head, seeming to be annoyed that she has waxed theological.)

Just be the best at what you are, and cherish that which has been brought together to make you *you*. For good or ill, we are all what our world has made of us, and what of that you can change, you can only change within yourself within the limits of your own mold.

A thorn doesn't make a pretty flower, nor can it usually convince anyone else of it's inner transformation.

(Looks a little sad, then annoyed, as she cuts the link.)

Medarr
Amarr
Ghost Festival
Naraka.
Posted - 2011.06.20 23:04:00 - [59]
 

" There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter. "

Evet Morrel
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.06.21 00:31:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Evet Morrel on 21/06/2011 00:35:32
Originally by: Medarr
" There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter. "


I see, so those that like it and have done a lot of it, they never again care for anything else, ….

Thanks Medarr, we can reasonably infer from this that those that liked it but didn't do much of it; and those that didn't like it but did a great deal of it; and also for those that neither liked it nor did much of it, all the members of these other groups were able to care for other things?

If so it's clear then that some are predisposed to it. If you feel that you are liking the killing of other people a little too much, whatever the reason that initially attracted you to it, you are likely a member of this vulnerable group. So beware because soon you won't care for anything else. Be sure to tell your loved ones, however humiliating that might be and ask for their help before its too late.


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