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Aravias
Posted - 2011.06.16 16:50:00 - [1]
 

Hello,
Perhaps it is an issue beyond my comprehension, both intellectually and morally; or perhaps it is one that there is no right answer to, no logical nor viable reason to justify it. Yet I am compelled to ask, perhaps even for my own sake, to change myself, why is it that we capsuleers, gifted with abilties that equal "gods", feast upon bloodshed like hungry sharks? Why do we engage in often senseless violence or fuel via industry a machine that perpetuates the destruction of man and materials? I do not come here to vilify or accuse, for my hands are not clean either, but I feel in order to bring some solace my mind, to try and understand what I do, I must ask.
Is it our power, those near divine abilities that allow us to cheat death and transform and destroy empires? Or is it merely the fact that we are human and we are embracing our animal instincts like the rest, are we merely doing what the rest of man has done for eternity; only doing so while piloting machines that can devestate fleets and worlds? Is our industrial might, the ability to craft immense quantities of materials only following a natural cycle into which it funds violence?

I do not know, I feel like I have control over myself, but time after time violence becomes my watchword, my career, and my mission. I understand its strategic purpose or the ends which I meet with it, but I do not know why, morally, I allow myself: Why we capsuleers allow ourselves to do this?
Aravias

Jev North
Ghost Festival
Naraka.
Posted - 2011.06.16 17:46:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Jev North on 16/06/2011 17:46:53
It's a common experience, but I'm not too surprised at someone expressing wonderment at what you're going through. Despite the subtle influences and immense forces shaping us, almost no one spells them out. I don't know why; maybe the plain-spoken truth is too horrible, or so banal it barely deserves thought, let alone mentioning out loud. (We are killers, yes, and occasionally we sh*t in toilets.)

In a nutshell - you are a killer because that is why society at large has created the capsuleer class, and allowed it to exist; to be a weapon against its enemies, whatever they happen to be at the moment. A weapon isn't useful if it's not deadly. So we have a wide selection of neural training packs focused on efficient means of destruction available to us, a transcranial burning scanner and cloning facilities so we can learn even from lethal mistakes, and a vibrant economic and industrial framework almost solely geared towards producing starships and weaponry to equip them with. And every ISK paid to us, into this, is blood money, or aimed towards keeping us doing what we're best at.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.06.16 17:51:00 - [3]
 

Not every capsuleer is a bloodthirsty killer, but many of us are, I suppose.

I believe the situation can be readily expressed in one age old sentiment:

"Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Silas Vitalia
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Vanguard Imperium
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:14:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Silas Vitalia on 16/06/2011 18:14:07
Interesting choice of words for your thread title. Closet blooder cultist?




Crucifire
Securitas Protectorate
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:17:00 - [5]
 

Because the consequences are inconsequential.

Koronakesh
Amarr
Seekers of a Silent Paradise
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:31:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Aravias
I do not know, I feel like I have control over myself, but time after time violence becomes my watchword, my career, and my mission. I understand its strategic purpose or the ends which I meet with it, but I do not know why, morally, I allow myself: Why we capsuleers allow ourselves to do this?
For some of us, this violence is sort of our entire reason of existence. That doesn't mean we necessarily take any sense of pleasure or enjoyment from the suffering it may cause, but the ends must be achieved in spite of that.

Senn Typhos
Anshar Incorporated
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:31:00 - [7]
 

The way you talk, it sounds like you think normal humans don't kill each other regularly for power, revenge, money, sometimes for no reason at all.

The only difference is eggers get bigger guns and more clones, and sometimes even that difference isn't present.

Violence is the way of the cluster.

Jereth Ravyn
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:40:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Aravias
Hello,
Perhaps it is an issue beyond my comprehension, both intellectually and morally; or perhaps it is one that there is no right answer to, no logical nor viable reason to justify it. Yet I am compelled to ask, perhaps even for my own sake, to change myself, why is it that we capsuleers, gifted with abilties that equal "gods", feast upon bloodshed like hungry sharks?


Pardon if I misunderstand your tone, but your question seems to imply that you consider all violence as morally wrong, and I can't determine wether you are trying to take a humble approach at grasping the concept or if you are positioning yourself as one who has evolved to the point that violence is an obsolete component of a lesser existence.

While I see your query as a relatively simple matter, others may not. I understand fully why I choose to commit violence. The individual sovereign right to defend yourself is morally just, but the attempts of others to restrict areas of space and take your freedom are ever present in New Eden. I think others have a multitude of answers to your question, and many more perhaps don't even know why they do what they do. But as It was already put so eloquently, the simple fact is "we are killers". Throughout human history armed conflict has been a catalyst for the progression of our society.

Capsuleers commit violence because it is a necessary element of human nature. Wether or not we "feast on bloodshed like hungry sharks" is up to the individual capsuleer to determine. I do not relish in violence for it's own sake.

"There is nothing half as melancholy as a battle lost except a battle won."

Aravias
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:42:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Senn Typhos
The way you talk, it sounds like you think normal humans don't kill each other regularly for power, revenge, money, sometimes for no reason at all.

The only difference is eggers get bigger guns and more clones, and sometimes even that difference isn't present.

Violence is the way of the cluster.

You misinterpret what I say utterly. Perhaps I did not make it clear when I stated "perhaps we are just doing what humans have done for eternity", I do indeed understand that humans kill each other regularly. Nevertheless, perhaps the question was poorly formatted. Rather, why do we humans do it I suppose, and why do WE CAPSULEERS, who have the power to influence others actions tremendously allow it?

Aravias
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:44:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Silas Vitalia
Edited by: Silas Vitalia on 16/06/2011 18:14:07
Interesting choice of words for your thread title. Closet blooder cultist?





Oh how witty you are. Indulging in needless idiocy demeans capsuleers further then wanton violence.

Mirabi Tiane
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:48:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Senn Typhos
The way you talk, it sounds like you think normal humans don't kill each other regularly for power, revenge, money, sometimes for no reason at all.

The only difference is eggers get bigger guns and more clones, and sometimes even that difference isn't present.

Violence is the way of the cluster.

Quoted for truth.
Capsuleers face far fewer consequences for murder, sometimes none at all. This is not new either. There has always been a tiny portion of the total human population that reaches that position due to power derived from wealth, influence, corruption, and so on. Currently, the total human population is extremely vast. Therefore, the number of people in that carefree category is higher than ever, despite the percentage that would describe that number being the same as (or only slightly larger than) it has been at any other point in history. The advancement of technology in parallel to the growth of the population naturally results in the actions of those few being more effective than ever, as Mr. Typhos pointed out.

Lucius Vindictus
Amarr
East Khanid Trading
Khanid Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:04:00 - [12]
 

Human nature.

Aiwha
Caldari
101st Space Marine Force
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:06:00 - [13]
 

Why not?

Silas Vitalia
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Vanguard Imperium
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:13:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Aravias
Originally by: Silas Vitalia
Edited by: Silas Vitalia on 16/06/2011 18:14:07
Interesting choice of words for your thread title. Closet blooder cultist?





Oh how witty you are. Indulging in needless idiocy demeans capsuleers further then wanton violence.


More than whining about it?

Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:18:00 - [15]
 

Because we can Twisted Evil


Senn Typhos
Anshar Incorporated
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:21:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Aravias
Originally by: Senn Typhos
The way you talk, it sounds like you think normal humans don't kill each other regularly for power, revenge, money, sometimes for no reason at all.

The only difference is eggers get bigger guns and more clones, and sometimes even that difference isn't present.

Violence is the way of the cluster.

You misinterpret what I say utterly. Perhaps I did not make it clear when I stated "perhaps we are just doing what humans have done for eternity", I do indeed understand that humans kill each other regularly. Nevertheless, perhaps the question was poorly formatted. Rather, why do we humans do it I suppose, and why do WE CAPSULEERS, who have the power to influence others actions tremendously allow it?


There's two types of arguments I don't enter into; philosophical and religious.

However, I've heard some Achuran believers call this "an answerless question." It's a waste of time, basically. You're looking for a purpose in chaos.

Syn Callibri
Minmatar
21st Eridani Lighthorse
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:25:00 - [17]
 

The truth of the matter is that we don't all "feast on bloodshed" as you so aptly put it. We are engines of war, weapons...this is true, but there are some of us that remember that we are human as well, augmented, genetically altered and implanted...but still human. We hate, we laugh, we love, we hurt.

-Syn

Michael Bross
Minmatar
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:33:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Raze Valadeus
"Absolute power corrupts absolutely."


I agree with your statement. It is the most apt description of your Empire I have seen to date.

Silas Vitalia
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Vanguard Imperium
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:35:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Michael Bross
Originally by: Raze Valadeus
"Absolute power corrupts absolutely."


I agree with your statement. It is the most apt description of your Empire I have seen to date.


Good to see you finally admitting the Amarr have absolute power.


Jereth Ravyn
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.06.16 20:05:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Aravias
...and why do WE CAPSULEERS, who have the power to influence others actions tremendously allow it?


I see now that I was not mistaken about your tone and that you are indeed filled with self importance and the idea that you not only can, but should impose your will on others. I am baffled at how you intend to not allow others to commit violence? As an ardent supporter of individual freedom, I whole heartedly reject your idea that we as capsuleers should use our status to "influence" others to repress their true nature in favor of pacifism because you believe it to be morally just. Statist societies have consistently used their memetic control poison to "influence" their citizens to conform, and your idea would be no different. It is not enlightened progression you seek, but an attempt to subvert human nature and individual will.

Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2011.06.16 20:31:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 16/06/2011 20:31:43
Every capsuleer is trained, equipped, modified-- engineered-- to be a component in a weapon.

A capsule can be used as the core of a mining ship. It can be used as the core of a transport. It can be used as the core of a survey vessel. All of this is true.

But its greatest potential, the summit of its strength, is in combat.

The capsuleer economy is drenched in blood. Those who do not fight equip those who do. The sole exception is relatively unprofitable trade.

The purpose of this is clear enough: the establishment and maintenance of a caste of sentient weapons for the wealthy and powerful to manipulate through the judicious application of ISK.

Whether we are human or not, whether our willingness to shed blood is unaltered, inadvertently altered, or intentionally modified, this much is certain: we are instruments for large-scale wetwork, assassins for killing fleets.

We kill so easily, in part, because that is what we are for. If we did not, our existence as a class would be without purpose.

It is a part of what, and why, we are.

Graelyn
Amarr
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2011.06.16 20:35:00 - [22]
 

Capsuleers became indispensable to the Empires because they could cheaply do the dirty work that once required many costly active Naval fleets to attend to. These constant conflicts were there before and aren't going anywhere.

We still do that work, while also developing our own conflicts.

The simplest answer to your question is: We spread destruction because anyone not willing to do so will be dominated by those who are willing.

Aravias
Posted - 2011.06.16 22:35:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Jereth Ravyn
Originally by: Aravias
...and why do WE CAPSULEERS, who have the power to influence others actions tremendously allow it?


I see now that I was not mistaken about your tone and that you are indeed filled with self importance and the idea that you not only can, but should impose your will on others. I am baffled at how you intend to not allow others to commit violence? As an ardent supporter of individual freedom, I whole heartedly reject your idea that we as capsuleers should use our status to "influence" others to repress their true nature in favor of pacifism because you believe it to be morally just. Statist societies have consistently used their memetic control poison to "influence" their citizens to conform, and your idea would be no different. It is not enlightened progression you seek, but an attempt to subvert human nature and individual will.
So you view chaos, greed, and murder for hire as the better alternative to a passive society? You wish for your supposed "freedom" so much that you would, and do, allow wanton violence to be committed? Is it truly a free society when you must arm yourself at great length to be safe? MUST freedom come at the cost of countless innocent lives? You misinterpret what freedom is as you staunchly seek to defend it. Furthermore, I stated no where that I intended to force this belief upon people for I am without the power to do so. I posed a moral and philosophical question that you obviously have no answer to. In essence, my question is encased within an old qoute, "Why is it that, as a culture, we are more comfortable seeing two men holding guns than holding hands?"

Jereth Ravyn
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.06.16 23:03:00 - [24]
 

You suggested that violence should not be allowed. Granted, I am arguing an extreme, in that by eliminating violence altogether, you are eliminating the individual's ability to defend one's self. That is where I take issue with your proposal, and it strikes at the heart of the dilemma. Indeed, it was put much more simply a moment ago.

Originally by: Graelyn
We spread destruction because anyone not willing to do so will be dominated by those who are willing.


If I were to sign on board to your passive society, everything would be great and there would be no limit to what we could accomplish. That is, until a more "active" society found us and decided they want what we have. History is littered with examples of dominant societies displacing more passive societies for one reason or another.

As far as the morality of it, I think you'd find that our views don't actually differ all that much. I abhor senseless killing just as you probably do (although my morality is probably shaped in quite a different way than yours). Would you not agree that it is moral and just that should you fall victim to an act of senseless violence, you have the sovereign right to defend yourself?

I think you are on the right track, questioning the status quo, and attempting to ask the deeper questions that apply to our post-human society, but your conclusion that we have somehow evolved past a need for violence is flawed. We are not there yet, and laying down your arms is not the first step on that path.

Acerba Agikor
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.17 00:34:00 - [25]
 

I'd say it's because capsuleers are detached from the rest of humanity. It's difficult enough for humans to feel empathy for one another. The level of disconnect experienced by capsuleers by and large throws empathy out the window to be retrieved by those few who still cling to a conscience. When you blow up a ship, you don't see the hundreds, if not thousands, of crew members on board. You probably don't even see most of the people on your own crew. They're faceless nonentities; they're nothing more than a blip on your sensors to be snuffed out. Financially, capsuleers have such immense wealth that buying, transporting, and reselling several cubic kilometers of a given product is considered to be
Originally by: Aria Jenneth
relatively unprofitable trade.

Tarryn Nightstorm
Minmatar
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
Posted - 2011.06.17 00:48:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Raze Valadeus
"Absolute power corrupts absolutely."


Not so:

Power in itself cannot corrupt--or do anything else, for that matter.

What it does do, once its' wielder grasps it, and uses it, like the tool it is, like the tool being all it is--is reveal what was there--you might say what was already corruptible anyway--all along.

(My em-dashes will out-blob your em-dashes! HA-HA!!)


Tarryn Nightstorm
Minmatar
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
Posted - 2011.06.17 01:08:00 - [27]
 

(Tarryn lights a cigarette, smiles cynically at the camera-pickup...)

Originally by: Aria Jenneth
Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 16/06/2011 20:31:43
Every capsuleer is trained, equipped, modified-- engineered-- to be a component in a weapon

[...]

The purpose of this is clear enough: the establishment and maintenance of a caste of sentient weapons for the wealthy and powerful to manipulate through the judicious application of ISK.


They call us "Gods."

And so we are, as all Gods have always been throughout the entirety of human history:

Tools, created by men, used by men to excuse/absolve/rationalise away all those icky parts of themselves that they'd rather not admit to. Elders, you'd think that they actually believed they were anything more than typically human or something! Or that they could be anything more, despite Aeons of collective evidence to the contrary! I mean, really...(what have these people been smoking, and where can I get some?)!

And, given that our creators are no less/no more human than we, or any other ape with less body-hair, I despair of us ending any better than any Gods ever have:

Discarded and forgotten once our usefulness has ended. Mankind has done this with every single God that ever was, is, or ever will be.

Are we next? Or are we still useful? And if so, then for how long?

The problem with turning people into living, walking weapons is:

1) Any weapon is, simply, a tool. When useful, it gets used. When not useful, it gets...put aside.
2) They're still, well, people.
3) And, this is even more true of those who made them, and use them.

We are as we are because we, and our users are all too typically, pathetically human. No more, no less. It's time to stop kidding yourselves, my fellow Eggers...Rolling Eyes

Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2011.06.17 02:15:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 17/06/2011 02:15:33
Mr. Nightstorm:

I like your view of "gods" tremendously. Generally, I fight hard against any use of the term to apply to us, but for you I'll make an exception.

... Well, almost.

Your description works well for what we're in danger of becoming. Best pray to the gods (or Elders, or just to "luck") that we don't get firmly socketed into that spot. We're sadly corporeal, unpleasantly fallible, inconveniently mortal, and therefore can expect the same life expectancy as "gods" as an ant trying to carry a high-voltage current.

Originally by: Tarryn Nightstorm
I despair of us ending any better than any Gods ever have:

Discarded and forgotten once our usefulness has ended. Mankind has done this with every single God that ever was, is, or ever will be.


The Amarrian god has been around for what I understand to be at least seven thousand years, if we just count back to the foundation of the Empire. We should be so lucky as to be discarded after such a good run.

Incidentally, while I also do not consider myself "human" and tend to argue with those who say otherwise, I think in our case the issue would be down to semantics.

... With respect to ourselves, anyway. I may think slightly better of human beings than you do.

Unit XS365BT
The Synenose Accord
Celestial Imperative
Posted - 2011.06.17 04:02:00 - [29]
 

Conflict and advancement seem inexorably linked within the vast majority of organic life forms.

Capsuleers advance at a much faster rate than the majority of organic life forms.

Capsuleers are involved in more conflict than the majority of organic life forms.

We note a correlation.

We Return.

Boma Airaken
Seekers of a Silent Paradise
Posted - 2011.06.17 04:04:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Koronakesh
Originally by: Aravias
I do not know, I feel like I have control over myself, but time after time violence becomes my watchword, my career, and my mission. I understand its strategic purpose or the ends which I meet with it, but I do not know why, morally, I allow myself: Why we capsuleers allow ourselves to do this?
For some of us, this violence is sort of our entire reason of existence. That doesn't mean we necessarily take any sense of pleasure or enjoyment from the suffering it may cause, but the ends must be achieved in spite of that.


This essentially.


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