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Dr Caymus
Gallente
Applied Technologies Inc
Agents of Fortune
Posted - 2011.06.21 14:17:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Dr Caymus on 21/06/2011 14:18:55
Originally by: Irulan Corinno
It's easy taking if you are the one with the most SP in the game.
Actually, in a way, that distinction makes it harder to talk...

Quote:
Still: tell me what's exactly good about training years to be able to have some versatility?
Years of versatile gameplay, Irulan. Years of versatile gameplay.


Irulan Corinno
Caldari
714th SQN - Snowflakes
Posted - 2011.06.21 14:36:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Dr Caymus
Quote:
Still: tell me what's exactly good about training years to be able to have some versatility?
Years of versatile gameplay, Irulan. Years of versatile gameplay.


A few years of less versatile gameplay compared to what could have been to be more precise .. Wink

WarProfit
Posted - 2011.06.21 16:47:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Scaramouche Jones
How about adding some new low-sec solar systems with restrictions on the type of ships (and even their fits) that can jump through. They'd probably have to be dead end systems and maybe even to have pretty awesome gate guns to discourage camping. This would create places were new players can engage in PvP on a relatively even basis with older players.

Just an idea.



If only one good idea comes out of this thread I nominate this as it.

Nelson Black
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:44:00 - [34]
 

lol Caymus back-peddaling like a champ. Good show old fellow. I half expected you to be MIA for another month while waiting for your next SP milestone.

You really have to hand it to the vets in this game. They don't even play it, but they'll be goddamned if anyone else gets to either.

Tebb1288
Posted - 2011.06.21 21:16:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Irulan Corinno
Edited by: Irulan Corinno on 21/06/2011 14:02:36
Originally by: Dr Caymus
LOL

It's easy taking if you are the one with the most SP in the game.

Still: tell me what's exactly good about training years to be able to have some versatility? "Gradually unfold over time" is a good thing as it may be overwhelming to be able to do everything but 25 years is a bit silly.



I have significantly less SP then Dr Caymus. 18,761,106 SP to be exact. I enjoy the long skill system. I get to play the part of the game I am capable of, and when I am ready to move on my skills have progressed to the point I am capable of moving into a different area. I may not be able to do everything extremely well, but I can do PI, mine, mission, exploration, manufacture, R&D, research, haul amounts below 25k m3 and a few other things. With a little foresight I can plan on doing something else next week. Things "Gradually unfold(ing) over time" makes this game so unique and exciting to me.

Nelson Black
Posted - 2011.06.21 22:24:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Nelson Black on 21/06/2011 22:24:48
Originally by: Tebb1288
Originally by: Irulan Corinno
Edited by: Irulan Corinno on 21/06/2011 14:02:36
Originally by: Dr Caymus
LOL

It's easy taking if you are the one with the most SP in the game.

Still: tell me what's exactly good about training years to be able to have some versatility? "Gradually unfold over time" is a good thing as it may be overwhelming to be able to do everything but 25 years is a bit silly.



I have significantly less SP then Dr Caymus. 18,761,106 SP to be exact. I enjoy the long skill system. I get to play the part of the game I am capable of, and when I am ready to move on my skills have progressed to the point I am capable of moving into a different area. I may not be able to do everything extremely well, but I can do PI, mine, mission, exploration, manufacture, R&D, research, haul amounts below 25k m3 and a few other things. With a little foresight I can plan on doing something else next week. Things "Gradually unfold(ing) over time" makes this game so unique and exciting to me.


Absolute twaddle. I've got over 10x your sp across four accounts and I can't remember the last time I was excited about training anything that took a month. It's simply a rediculous hurdle to jump to make parity. There's absolutely no question in my mind that had I started playin in the last few years I would have never stuck with the game. I'm an early 2006 starter and got three of my accounts going very early on. I'm not even that far behind Caymus and company, relatively speaking, and I still feel the system is at least denying the game a lot of subs due to the over-done training times.

There's really nothing to be said for it. All arguments for retaining the status quo are absolutely rediculous **** ad-hominems, fear-mongering ("inc wow players"), and various other scents of horse-****. I'm sure CCP weighs the benefits of such a change on a regular basis. Eventually, they're going to realize the vets are going to remain bitter and then new players just won't subscribe anymore. Micro-transactions might assuage their hunger for new subs a little, but mark my words, in less than two years time we will see another major sp reform and the most likely scenario is faster training.

Dr Caymus
Gallente
Applied Technologies Inc
Agents of Fortune
Posted - 2011.06.22 12:59:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Nelson Black
Incessant, temper-tantrous ranting


Walt, have you considered other games that might more closely meet your needs?

Asherr Sindar
Posted - 2011.06.22 19:54:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Asherr Sindar on 22/06/2011 19:54:37
I had this debate with corp mates a week or so ago. These are the questions that truly need answered.

How large of a player base can EVE support? My friends who have played the game for years didn't want a few hundred K people jumping into the game over night and either (a) forcing the game client to crash or (b) causing the economy to crash

Does CCP really want this game to grow? If so, it needs to be easier for new people to get involved in the game. I joined just a few months ago, and I'm not going anywhere, but there is a level of frustration with the amount of time it takes to train the basic skills that even allow you to fit a ship.

The following is what I would do if I was CCP. I would allow a one time purchase of 5million SP, available only within the first 60 days of game play. Charge an extra 50% over what it would cost to train this quantity of SP over time ($15 a month, it would take lets say roughly 3 months... so $75). This does a few things: 1) It would allow a new player who is interested in game to actually get involved. To support pvp play, you need to be able to run lvl 4s. To run level 4s, you need a battle ship. To actually fit a battle ship, you have to train a number of core skills before even training the skills you need for the ship or items to put on the ship. 5 million SP is enough to get started in whatever the new player's desired direction is. 2) it removes the excuse for new players that "it takes to long to get involved". They would have the option to pay for that training time at a premium. 3) It provides additional income to CCP. 4) Veterans won't be royally ****ed because all training times are nerfed. It's targeted specifically at new players as an option they can pay for to actually get involved faster.

Ask yourself this - what is the minimum SP requirement for your corp for new players? How long does someone have to play in newb corps before they are even a consideration in yours?

I played WoW back before the first expansion. I had a lvl 60 character with top of the line gear. I was ****ed when BC came out, because people like myself who had invested thousands of hours were put on par with people who just joined literally over night. I know how you veterans of EVE feel. I like the fact that this universe is unique and requires dedication. But to be sustainable as a game over time, you have to be able to attract new people, without ruining the game like blizzard did. I think my solution is reasonable, although not perfect. What do you think?

Judicator Saturnius
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2011.06.22 22:21:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Asherr Sindar
But to be sustainable as a game over time, you have to be able to attract new people, without ruining the game like blizzard did. I think my solution is reasonable, although not perfect. What do you think?


/shrug I don't pretend to have the slightest clue as to what goes on in the CCP meeting room, but from the looks of incarana and dust they do want the company proper to branch out and attract a wider audience. While that says little about EVE itself, indirectly i'd take from it they would like a few thousand more players each quarter. Note that I said "players," and not "accounts," because I think they've nearly saturated the current player base for alts. All the vets i'm aware of, myself included, are getting rid of sustained training alt accounts rather than getting more of them.

Do I think some modified rate of training would be good for attracting new players? Sure, that is a perfectly logical assumption I guess.
Do I think it's 100% necessary for the sustainability of the game into the future? That depends on CCP's view of the game at this point. If they are not critically concnered with doubling the player base in the next few years then I really don't think they have to do anything with skill training. There is and probably always will be at least a small trickle of new players entering the game and most that i've met have no qualms about purchasing characters in the bazaar or otherwise getting ahead without spending as much time as we old folk did in the game.

In the end this argument always just gets messy as hell. Neither side has any idea what CCPs real take on the matter is and CCP is not saying anything about it. Without that key piece of information you simply have two competitive views of how EVE will/should evolve into the future. Either a rough continuity of the current pace of things or not. No answer is "right," unless CCP themselves (and their opinions are known to change) validates it and even then you have the population more than willing to protest and change their mind.

TL;DR: I retain it is, in theory, an idea that might help EVE gain broader appeal, but that precludes a lot of things about EVE nobody agrees on here. Needless to say, I wouldn't be holding my breath for anymore sp reforms in the near future at least.

lordlulzs
Posted - 2011.06.24 01:03:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: lordlulzs on 24/06/2011 01:05:24
Edited by: lordlulzs on 24/06/2011 01:04:06
As far as I am many others are concerned.

Anything that brings more targets into the game and keeps them there is a good change.

Many have attempted to argue that faster skill training will allow people to grow bored faster, however the truth is that more people grow tired of waiting on skills to finish. I and many others would much rather be able to fly many many different ships with relatively good skills than be able to fly a few ships with excellent skills.

People like to diversify, and thats one thing in eve that has always been very difficult to accomplish. Yea and guess what, people are AH/HD too bad, thats what video games are, any popular mmo caterers to this.

It is true that many older players would leave eve is skill training was significantly faster, however, the change would bring in far more new players and keep them ACTIVE more consistently.

The net change would mean more people playing eve not less, so what if we lose some old farts.

I will gladly take 10K high SP's players canceling their subs for the mere possibility of even 100k new players.

If CCP truly cares about having more subscriptions and finally swallows their pride about "just being different" they will have to make this change.

Miss Rabblt
Posted - 2011.06.28 16:51:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Miss Rabblt on 28/06/2011 17:13:39
Originally by: WarProfit
The reason behind my originial post is that recently I tried to recruit 3 RL friends to join EVE and give it a try since we enjoy each others company on other MMO games. After some bribes of beer they started a trial account and we started to have fun. Fast forward 4 weeks later and I quote "It will take years to fly anything worth competing inregards to pvp in this game" (Iknow that statemnt is not true and I tried to convince them otherwise), so 3 new trial accounts sit empty atleast they gave me what little isk they made.

i think it was good day for Eve. No need thanks. Very Happy

Quote:

The following is what I would do if I was CCP. I would allow a one time purchase of 5million SP, available only within the first 60 days of game play. Charge an extra 50% over what it would cost to train this quantity of SP over time ($15 a month, it would take lets say roughly 3 months... so $75). This does a few things: 1) It would allow a new player who is interested in game to actually get involved. To support pvp play, you need to be able to run lvl 4s. To run level 4s, you need a battle ship. To actually fit a battle ship, you have to train a number of core skills before even training the skills you need for the ship or items to put on the ship.

Ask yourself this - what is the minimum SP requirement for your corp for new players? How long does someone have to play in newb corps before they are even a consideration in yours?


have you considered that with 5mil SP every "new player" needs:
1) disposable set of battleships and stuff
2) corp/faction standings for run lvl4s

Because without standings he can't run lvl4s. And without experience (which game experience will you have right after creating new account in new game?) new player will lost his ship very often.

So i guess your "starter package" is:
1) 5mil SP
2) free access to any BS-class ship + T2 stuff
3) free access to any lvl4 agents in Eve

Have i got you right?Shocked

Malachias Orin
Posted - 2011.06.28 19:07:00 - [42]
 


Quote:

The following is what I would do if I was CCP. I would allow a one time purchase of 5million SP, available only within the first 60 days of game play. Charge an extra 50% over what it would cost to train this quantity of SP over time ($15 a month, it would take lets say roughly 3 months... so $75). This does a few things: 1) It would allow a new player who is interested in game to actually get involved. To support pvp play, you need to be able to run lvl 4s. To run level 4s, you need a battle ship. To actually fit a battle ship, you have to train a number of core skills before even training the skills you need for the ship or items to put on the ship.

Ask yourself this - what is the minimum SP requirement for your corp for new players? How long does someone have to play in newb corps before they are even a consideration in yours?


have you considered that with 5mil SP every "new player" needs:
1) disposable set of battleships and stuff
2) corp/faction standings for run lvl4s

Because without standings he can't run lvl4s. And without experience (which game experience will you have right after creating new account in new game?) new player will lost his ship very often.

So i guess your "starter package" is:
1) 5mil SP
2) free access to any BS-class ship + T2 stuff
3) free access to any lvl4 agents in Eve

Have i got you right?Shocked


He said nothing about 2 or 3. As a new character, and mission runner, I've got about a month played, and about 1.7 million skill points. I'm flying a Harby, and running level 3s without an issue, even the hardest level 3s with 6 hour completion for bonus. I'd love to run level 4s for a new challenge, but I know rushing into it is just asking to lose a battleship. I've got the standings to draw level 4 agents. I've got cash stashed on an alt to buy and fit my would be battleship twice over. So I guess I'm stuck waiting 6 months to acquire the skills to properly fit and fly a battleship, while running level 3 missions endlessly. Good times.

Not to mention my ultimate goal is to fly Logistics Cruisers. Add how many more months to jump into one, including a month of training cruisers to 5.

Honestly skill training times was the reason I left the game the first time around. I like Eve, and I like internet spaceships. Early skill training just seems unnecessarily long. I can understand a need to slow the game down after a point, keeping characters out of carriers, titans, and the like. By all means put long training times on those skills. What would be the harm on double, or even quadruple training speed on skills up to 10 million skill points (basically a characters first month or two)? Basic skills even, keep tech 2, tech 3, capital ships out of the bonused training. Even playing the tutorial, you get skill books as rewards. You may need the skill for the next mission. So you wait. Destroyers (both a ship and the skill book) at the end of advanced military arc. You can pound through the tutorial, and both combat agents in a matter of hours. Frigate 3 takes 8 hours. And this is just the start.

Lastly having the skillpoints to fly a battleships doesn't mean you have the piloting skills to fly a battleship. The only way to learn to fly a specific ship is to fly it, and learn what it can and cannot do.




Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.06.28 19:32:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Malachias Orin
As a new character, and mission runner, I've got about a month played, and about 1.7 million skill points. I'm flying a Harby, and running level 3s without an issue, even the hardest level 3s with 6 hour completion for bonus. I'd love to run level 4s for a new challenge, but I know rushing into it is just asking to lose a battleship. I've got the standings to draw level 4 agents. I've got cash stashed on an alt to buy and fit my would be battleship twice over. So I guess I'm stuck waiting 6 months to acquire the skills to properly fit and fly a battleship, while running level 3 missions endlessly. Good times.

Not to mention my ultimate goal is to fly Logistics Cruisers. Add how many more months to jump into one, including a month of training cruisers to 5.

Honestly skill training times was the reason I left the game the first time around. I like Eve, and I like internet spaceships. Early skill training just seems unnecessarily long. I can understand a need to slow the game down after a point, keeping characters out of carriers, titans, and the like. By all means put long training times on those skills. What would be the harm on double, or even quadruple training speed on skills up to 10 million skill points (basically a characters first month or two)? Basic skills even, keep tech 2, tech 3, capital ships out of the bonused training. Even playing the tutorial, you get skill books as rewards. You may need the skill for the next mission. So you wait. Destroyers (both a ship and the skill book) at the end of advanced military arc. You can pound through the tutorial, and both combat agents in a matter of hours. Frigate 3 takes 8 hours. And this is just the start.

Lastly having the skillpoints to fly a battleships doesn't mean you have the piloting skills to fly a battleship. The only way to learn to fly a specific ship is to fly it, and learn what it can and cannot do.

I agree with this person.

You can make ISK really easy in EVE, you learn about tracking and other mechanics pretty fast (if you play the game!) - and then you're stuck with hardly enough skills to decently fly and fit things for a long time.

Logistics - haha well you did ready that only at Logictics V and max cap skills and transfer skills at V you'll be able to do it cap stable? Fly a Basilisk? Better also train energy transfer. Repair drones at V to be able to use T2 logistics drones?
Well it's going to take 3 months, easily.

Llambda
Space Llama Industries
Posted - 2011.06.29 00:00:00 - [44]
 

Great idea, but I'm not sure it's enough. Have you seen the lvl 5 training time on Titans? It's patently absurd, and I'm pretty sure it was designed solely to force people who want titans into purchasing a second account.

Why even have a skilling system at all, really? Let's just make it so all you have to do is buy the skillbook, and as soon as you install it you have the skill at level 5. ISK grinding takes the place of skill grinding in Eve anyway, so why not just make it more direct?

On that note, some of the skillbook prices could use some revision, too. What's a titan skillbook cost, like... 5 billion?

Some of us have lives, CCP.

Miss Rabblt
Posted - 2011.06.29 09:17:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Malachias Orin

[qoute]
have you considered that with 5mil SP every "new player" needs:
1) disposable set of battleships and stuff
2) corp/faction standings for run lvl4s

Because without standings he can't run lvl4s. And without experience (which game experience will you have right after creating new account in new game?) new player will lost his ship very often.


So i guess your "starter package" is:
1) 5mil SP
2) free access to any BS-class ship + T2 stuff
3) free access to any lvl4 agents in Eve

Have i got you right?Shocked


He said nothing about 2 or 3.


because he just haven't spent enough time of thinking about it. grinding standing needs time. And you need money to buy stuff. And replace your losses. It is OK if you buy ISK. But standings?

Originally by: Malachias Orin

So I guess I'm stuck waiting 6 months to acquire the skills to properly fit and fly a battleship, while running level 3 missions endlessly. Good times.


yea. i'm really sorry for you :( You will never fly carrier i suppose :( It needs like 1.5-2 years to get "all to 5" if i understand your "to properly fit it"

(it was sarcasm)

Originally by: Malachias Orin
Not to mention my ultimate goal is to fly Logistics Cruisers. Add how many more months to jump into one, including a month of training cruisers to 5.


i have spent 15 days to it. Maybe you will finally consider buying some skill implants?

Originally by: Malachias Orin
Honestly skill training times was the reason I left the game the first time around. I like Eve, and I like internet spaceships.

Eve is a game for smart players as many say. And you need to be the smart to play this game. Here "smart" means: strategy, patience, knowing, training, learning. If you just want to buy new shiny ship and blow all around - you can find a lot of other games. You will not be happy here. I'm sorry.

Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2011.06.29 10:41:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Starling

You can make ISK really easy in EVE



Maybe this is the problem then, isk coming too easy due to all kinds of highsec/PVE buffs. Maybe you wouldn't complain like this if you couldn't afford the stuff anyway. Though I'm sure that you would be talking about how hard it is to make money in that case. Some people just have an attitude of wanting everything right now.

Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.06.29 10:49:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Drykor
Originally by: Jennifer Starling

You can make ISK really easy in EVE


Maybe this is the problem then, isk coming too easy due to all kinds of highsec/PVE buffs. Maybe you wouldn't complain like this if you couldn't afford the stuff anyway. Though I'm sure that you would be talking about how hard it is to make money in that case. Some people just have an attitude of wanting everything right now.

It's definitely very easy to become a multi billionaire. And perhaps some people have an attitude of having to do things to accomplish something (perhaps you think this is strange) instead of waiting because there's no other way.

As I said before: "skilltraining in EVE is like welfare compared to working: you don't have to do anything for it but you don't get a lot in return either".

Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2011.06.29 10:55:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Originally by: Drykor
Originally by: Jennifer Starling

You can make ISK really easy in EVE


Maybe this is the problem then, isk coming too easy due to all kinds of highsec/PVE buffs. Maybe you wouldn't complain like this if you couldn't afford the stuff anyway. Though I'm sure that you would be talking about how hard it is to make money in that case. Some people just have an attitude of wanting everything right now.

It's definitely very easy to become a multi billionaire. And perhaps some people have an attitude of having to do things to accomplish something (perhaps you think this is strange) instead of waiting because there's no other way.

As I said before: "skilltraining in EVE is like welfare compared to working: you don't have to do anything for it but you don't get a lot in return either".



Accomplishing something in Eve doesn't mean flying the biggest baddest ship out there. Like I said before, there is a lot of content for lower SP characters. However, you and others here seem to think this is not good enough for you.
If you cannot enjoy yourself in a frigate, you won't enjoy yourself in a high-end ship either. Sure it's natural to want to progress into bigger stuff but that certainly doesn't mean the game is not fun at the early stages. If you honestly feel that all you can do in Eve is wait for skills to finish, then I don't think this is the game for you. But even with that attitude there are options. You say money comes so easily, well buy a better character. Personally I couldn't stand buying something better than the main character I trained up myself but maybe it's something for you.

Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.06.29 11:04:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 29/06/2011 11:10:10
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 29/06/2011 11:08:59
Originally by: Drykor
Accomplishing something in Eve doesn't mean flying the biggest baddest ship out there. Like I said before, there is a lot of content for lower SP characters. However, you and others here seem to think this is not good enough for you.
If you cannot enjoy yourself in a frigate, you won't enjoy yourself in a high-end ship either.

That's just your asumptions friend, I flew frigates for months and I liked it. I still love my interceptors. I just want versatility and flexibility, not having to say "but I can't really fly ship .." all the time whenever it's asked.

Next to that. EVE has an end-game called 0.0 sovereignty. Which is for a large part decided by supercaps and you need loads of SP for those. And no, I am not planning to ever fly one. I hate the day CCP introduced them into the game, EVE got a -1 rating for me for that fact alone.

And I'm sorry, I'm to much of a RP person to ever buy a character. If we ever get the "drain other character for 50% of its SP" option I'd do it though. Especially as i already have the player skill to fly the ships I'm not allowed to fly now, I don't see getting rid of the artifical SP nonsense as a problem, RP wise.

McRoll
Minmatar
Heatseekers
Posted - 2011.06.29 12:22:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 29/06/2011 11:10:10
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 29/06/2011 11:08:59
Originally by: Drykor
Accomplishing something in Eve doesn't mean flying the biggest baddest ship out there. Like I said before, there is a lot of content for lower SP characters. However, you and others here seem to think this is not good enough for you.
If you cannot enjoy yourself in a frigate, you won't enjoy yourself in a high-end ship either.

That's just your asumptions friend, I flew frigates for months and I liked it. I still love my interceptors. I just want versatility and flexibility, not having to say "but I can't really fly ship .." all the time whenever it's asked.

Next to that. EVE has an end-game called 0.0 sovereignty. Which is for a large part decided by supercaps and you need loads of SP for those. And no, I am not planning to ever fly one. I hate the day CCP introduced them into the game, EVE got a -1 rating for me for that fact alone.

And I'm sorry, I'm to much of a RP person to ever buy a character. If we ever get the "drain other character for 50% of its SP" option I'd do it though. Especially as i already have the player skill to fly the ships I'm not allowed to fly now, I don't see getting rid of the artifical SP nonsense as a problem, RP wise.



If you want flexibility, you cannot demand more SP.

You dont need high SP to experience flexibility or a new game mechanic, you can do most things in Eve with little SP, just the results arent worth mentioning. But if you want flexibilitly and learning about new stuff, you dont need hundreds of millions of ISK/day or be able to perform like a vet in a big ship. You buy efficiency with your invested time in the game.

Instead, you have to demand that CCP completely changes the tier system of ships and a large part of the game mechanics. This is because players are supposed to have a natural progression during their game time, from T1 frigates->cruisers>BC's>BS>capitals and the T2 variants somewhere in between. Now if every player has high SP really fast, the whole part from T1 frigs up to BS becomes obsolete as everybody would be sitting in T2 or capitals. The needed money would be got via PLEX or botting, as it happens already.

So remove the tier system of every ship and make it worth flying, so that every ship from a T1 fig up to titan is used frequently. Then you can talk about getting rid of SP, but not before.


Mixne
Posted - 2011.06.29 15:59:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: McRoll
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 29/06/2011 11:10:10
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 29/06/2011 11:08:59
Originally by: Drykor
Accomplishing something in Eve doesn't mean flying the biggest baddest ship out there. Like I said before, there is a lot of content for lower SP characters. However, you and others here seem to think this is not good enough for you.
If you cannot enjoy yourself in a frigate, you won't enjoy yourself in a high-end ship either.

That's just your asumptions friend, I flew frigates for months and I liked it. I still love my interceptors. I just want versatility and flexibility, not having to say "but I can't really fly ship .." all the time whenever it's asked.

Next to that. EVE has an end-game called 0.0 sovereignty. Which is for a large part decided by supercaps and you need loads of SP for those. And no, I am not planning to ever fly one. I hate the day CCP introduced them into the game, EVE got a -1 rating for me for that fact alone.

And I'm sorry, I'm to much of a RP person to ever buy a character. If we ever get the "drain other character for 50% of its SP" option I'd do it though. Especially as i already have the player skill to fly the ships I'm not allowed to fly now, I don't see getting rid of the artifical SP nonsense as a problem, RP wise.



If you want flexibility, you cannot demand more SP.

You dont need high SP to experience flexibility or a new game mechanic, you can do most things in Eve with little SP, just the results arent worth mentioning. But if you want flexibilitly and learning about new stuff, you dont need hundreds of millions of ISK/day or be able to perform like a vet in a big ship. You buy efficiency with your invested time in the game.

Instead, you have to demand that CCP completely changes the tier system of ships and a large part of the game mechanics. This is because players are supposed to have a natural progression during their game time, from T1 frigates->cruisers>BC's>BS>capitals and the T2 variants somewhere in between. Now if every player has high SP really fast, the whole part from T1 frigs up to BS becomes obsolete as everybody would be sitting in T2 or capitals. The needed money would be got via PLEX or botting, as it happens already.

So remove the tier system of every ship and make it worth flying, so that every ship from a T1 fig up to titan is used frequently. Then you can talk about getting rid of SP, but not before.




So artificially gating content on an arbitrary "wait to play" system is better than simply making the content challenging enough that you will fail if you try it before you're ready? EVE is a game about flying internet spaceships. I guarantee it has lost a ton of potential subscriptions due to the fact that people aren't about to wait 6 months to fly a spaceship they want to. ISK *should* be the content gate, as mentioned earlier. Make skill books FAR more expensive, make the learning time WAY faster and if you haven't learned how to fly a ship properly from a player skill perspective, you'll get it blown up. Also, are there really that many veterans that don't want to see noobs in big, juicy ships asking to be blown up?

McRoll
Minmatar
Heatseekers
Posted - 2011.06.29 16:24:00 - [52]
 

Because getting ISK is such a problem in Eve right? Some CCP devs had the opinion that more than a couple of titans would never be built and where are we now? 10+ titans on a field is a common fleet composition in 0.0 now I hear.

If you can get ISK easily by bying PLEX, a wealthy alliance just buys a ton of PLEXES for SP for their new members and suddenly they have 50 supercapital pilots more. Makes Eve certainly better for everyone.

Marabel Naari
Posted - 2011.06.30 15:55:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Marabel Naari on 30/06/2011 15:56:42
Originally by: Drykor
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Originally by: Drykor
Originally by: Jennifer Starling

You can make ISK really easy in EVE


Maybe this is the problem then, isk coming too easy due to all kinds of highsec/PVE buffs. Maybe you wouldn't complain like this if you couldn't afford the stuff anyway. Though I'm sure that you would be talking about how hard it is to make money in that case. Some people just have an attitude of wanting everything right now.

It's definitely very easy to become a multi billionaire. And perhaps some people have an attitude of having to do things to accomplish something (perhaps you think this is strange) instead of waiting because there's no other way.

As I said before: "skilltraining in EVE is like welfare compared to working: you don't have to do anything for it but you don't get a lot in return either".



Accomplishing something in Eve doesn't mean flying the biggest baddest ship out there. Like I said before, there is a lot of content for lower SP characters. However, you and others here seem to think this is not good enough for you.
If you cannot enjoy yourself in a frigate, you won't enjoy yourself in a high-end ship either. Sure it's natural to want to progress into bigger stuff but that certainly doesn't mean the game is not fun at the early stages. If you honestly feel that all you can do in Eve is wait for skills to finish, then I don't think this is the game for you. But even with that attitude there are options. You say money comes so easily, well buy a better character. Personally I couldn't stand buying something better than the main character I trained up myself but maybe it's something for you.


The real question is, "Does Eve have content for low SP players to play with high SP players?" From what I'm seeing the answer to this is no. That is the problem right there. For an older MMO Eve needs content where old and new players can play together successfully.

I'm fine with having a handicap because I got to the game late. I think all CCP really needs to do is siphon the problem some. If there was a popular 0.0 system where all you could fly was frigates that would be a different story. You could do this with several 0.0 systems and have different types of ships be allowed. Eventually you get so far out you can fly whatever you want. Something like this would give newbies the chance to play with the big guys, and not get crushed. If people feel like they have a chance they won't quit within the first 3 months of playing. It would also make the game more newbie friendly without messing up the SP system.

Hell it sounds like the 0.0 systems have enough problems with super carriers. Implementing something like this might make the "end game" more interesting in general. Imagine having to defend something with all of one type of ship, against all of one type of ship. Your strategies would change wouldn't they?

Mark Sherlock
Posted - 2011.06.30 18:46:00 - [54]
 

The Long skill game is cool. 22 years it takes to max. Half of that would be umm... herp derp

I mean it when I say i like the long skill game. Just not that entry level ships take 90 days to effectively pilot, that is not cool. I dont think any new player is complaing about titans out of reach or what have you above battleships, but as it stands new players are given tools that they are pigeonholed into finding ways to validate their pruchase and subscription fees while they earn their 90 days and $45 dollars grace period.

Eve has a terrible retention rate, no way bro.

Scorpias 2
Amarr
Sternverein Corporation
Posted - 2011.07.01 06:11:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Scorpias 2 on 01/07/2011 06:11:47
i agree some kind of speed increase would be good,

35 days to train a skill is a little far, as it equates to about 16 euros to train. it works out as like 45 euros sub time for me to go from Moa to Widow.. not cool.

Randren
Posted - 2011.07.02 00:10:00 - [56]
 

What about some minor changes to some of the support skills. One of the thinks I am running into now is that I can use a ship or module, but to get it fitted and have the ship functional is an issue. Why not make some of the support skills take less time.

I am fine with the time to train up to use a module or ship, but I don't like that I have to train half a dozen other skills to 4 or5 just to put it all together. Maybe make more of the support skills be level 1 skills so that, yes you need to wait to get into that fancy ship or use that fancy module, but once you get there you can actually use it rather than realize you can't actually put it together so that it works.

Jacob Stiller
Posted - 2011.07.02 01:31:00 - [57]
 

Meh. Even if you doubled sp production, it would still take around 12 years to train everything. Very long term skilling indeed. Go ahead and do it and give all existing characters bonus SP equal to their current SP total so vets don't have a total cow. Sure, it might be sickening to see Dr. Caymus with 374 million sp, but maybe CCP would be motivated to push out some new content sooner if the good doctor was only 4 years away from having everything.

Naradius
DEATHFUNK
Posted - 2011.07.02 02:45:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Dr Caymus
Originally by: WarProfit
What would happen if all level training time was reduced to 50% or more?

We'd train skills faster. I'd finish faster and I'd get bored faster. Can you imagine how epic that fail would be?

I think quite the opposite: The skill system should not be finite; the end should not be attainable. Rather, there should be 6th and 7th skill levels, requiring progressively more time to train (with skill benefits remapped accordingly). This would make the skill system for all practical purposes open ended, providing a much deeper and more provocative character to this unique element of game-play.

Dr Caymus
-=ATI=-





I'm with the Dr here...great idea! Even when I was a noob, low skill points never stopped me from exploring the game. At the beginning, yes, the main aim of getting skill points was to get access to what I wanted to fly or do the things I wanted to do...but lets face it, skills for young players aren't that time intensive - level 4's will cut it most of the time.
The decision as to what to train to level 5, is what really starts to give your character depth, and Dr Caymus's idea would add a great level to that depth.

psykiller
Caldari
THE PAROXYSM
Dark Solar Empire
Posted - 2011.07.04 13:45:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 20/06/2011 19:25:41
I think the game's content should be exciting and fun enough to play it, not endlessly waiting to be able to fly a ship. As i said elsewhere, the meaning XP or SP should be that new players can gradually learn the game, not a purpose in itself.

If it was up to me, you'd train 10 times as fast.

I like games where teamplay and player skill is the most important, not your crippled versatility because it takes years to skill up. How can you learn to fit and fly a ship if you're not allowed to fly "because of SP" in the first place?

To me it makes no sense at all. Even with my 30 million SP I'm still lacking a lot of skills to be able to fly most ships efficiently. And that's just subcaps and combat only.



what then about the veteran players that have invested years into the game, how do you offset they're investment vs yours if u get a sudden 10x boost to training times, is it retro-active ? do they get say a estimated 10x allocation of a a years worth of sp points, per year they've been playing to balance it out and make the change equal for all ?

hell if they did that i might even take it lets see now i max out training at 2970 sp/hr so we * by 24 then * 365, and unless my math fails me thats about 71.6m sp per yr right ? so times that by 7 for the number of yrs ive been playing and it should about balance out, i use all that unallocated sp, and i would have EVERY SINGLE SKILL IN THE GAME AT 5

what do i do now theres nothing left ot look forawrd too = quit

if u lack skills at 30m sp to fly ships efficently, it isnt a lack on the games part, its a lack on yours to use the tools out there that are avaible to train your character effectively for its best potential

Vain Eldritch
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.07.04 16:25:00 - [60]
 

This will all be moot when CCP starts selling SP on the Nex for Aurum. They'll under-shoot the total SP for 1 month training and put that on the Nex for the Aurum equivalent of a plex.

Razz


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