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WarProfit
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:43:00 - [1]
 

What would happen if all level training time was reduced to 50% or more? Example a level 5 skill that normally takes say 19 days reduced to say 5 days.

Would more new players arrive, would veteran players quit, what do you think would happen?

Templar Knightsbane
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:48:00 - [2]
 

i think i'd be a very happy player

Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:48:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: WarProfit
What would happen if all level training time was reduced to 50% or more? Example a level 5 skill that normally takes say 19 days reduced to say 5 days.

Would more new players arrive, would veteran players quit, what do you think would happen?

I wouldn't mind at all, on the contrary.

Being able to fly and fit the ships you like and let player skill and teamwork be the deciding factors instead of SP limitations can't be bad.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:46:00 - [4]
 

People would quit much sooner.

Digital Messiah
Gallente
N7 Corporation
PandaMonium.
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:50:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Digital Messiah on 15/06/2011 20:51:59
Originally by: Tippia
People would quit much sooner.
People don't quit because they have nothing to train. They quit because they get caught in a niche and are to overwhelmed by the idea of training something new. Or at least that is the main reason I see people ditch the game after years of playing.

No one wants to look back on 3 years worth of training time and then. "Well looks like I should make another 3 year skill plan to be great at this."

Honey Senpai
Posted - 2011.06.16 01:41:00 - [6]
 

People would quit.

It would be a major slap in the face to the players who supported this game for years.

Suprise the dollar to sp ratio just doubled over night and you got massively ripped off. Keep enjoying eve.

The newer players have already gotten small percentage easing in this area many times over. It happened when they removed the learning skills. No one before that could get upto 2700 sp an hour within a week of the game.

Remaping did this by up to 14% if you do the math.
Eve keeps doing it.

A little at a time is understandible but what your suggesting is crap.

WarProfit
Posted - 2011.06.16 13:36:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Honey Senpai
People would quit.

It would be a major slap in the face to the players who supported this game for years..



Really..... This is a game afterall I guess the real question is what would the turnaround rate be in an MMOP in which a individual can reach there max abilities and acquire the stuff in a realtively short period of time?

Takseen
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:06:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: WarProfit
Originally by: Honey Senpai
People would quit.

It would be a major slap in the face to the players who supported this game for years..



Really..... This is a game afterall I guess the real question is what would the turnaround rate be in an MMOP in which a individual can reach there max abilities and acquire the stuff in a realtively short period of time?


That's pretty much how World of Warcraft plays out these days. A week's gameplay gets you to 95% of your total power potential, and if then people either grind out the remaining 5% over months, or just start again with a new character.
Personally, I wouldn't enjoy it at all. I like "unlocking" a new gameplay element or ship configuration every month or so via skill training.

Laurent Savard
Posted - 2011.06.17 13:25:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: WarProfit
Originally by: Honey Senpai
People would quit.

It would be a major slap in the face to the players who supported this game for years..



Really..... This is a game afterall I guess the real question is what would the turnaround rate be in an MMOP in which a individual can reach there max abilities and acquire the stuff in a realtively short period of time?


That's pretty much how World of Warcraft plays out these days. A week's gameplay gets you to 95% of your total power potential, and if then people either grind out the remaining 5% over months, or just start again with a new character.
Personally, I wouldn't enjoy it at all. I like "unlocking" a new gameplay element or ship configuration every month or so via skill training.


Agreed.

Also, it is vitally important to make a clear message to new players that the model this game follows is NOT "Level up to max level and then the fun begins."

Eve is not played by "finishing" all the training you need by grinding in the shortest amount of time possible and then playing. You are playing the game fully from day 1.

Sure, as you accrue SP you can do different things, fit better, fly more ships... But it is not, to continue the tortured WoW analogy, like comparing a level 50 character, which serves no purpose except to keep leveling up to 85 (or whatever max is now), to a max level character which then gets to start enjoying "end game" content.

There is no "end game" content in Eve, and any you might argue are more realistically tied to social factors than SP. You can be a brand new character in a huge SOV holding Alliance, or you can be a bitter vet in a one man corp mining in Empire.

Success and "level" or even time spent playing are not directly related.

Golden Xi
Posted - 2011.06.17 13:53:00 - [10]
 

Didnt they do something similar is Star Wars Galaxies which effectively killed the game?

Ravenal
The Fated
E.Y
Posted - 2011.06.18 12:25:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Golden Xi
Didnt they do something similar is Star Wars Galaxies which effectively killed the game?

Wasn't that game dead from the start anyway? :D

I for one think it's a good enough idea at it's basic level. I don't think any skill should require a months subscription to train from lvl4 to lvl5.

Judicator Saturnius
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2011.06.18 16:36:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Judicator Saturnius on 18/06/2011 16:50:38
Not a new idea, but a good idea. Sadly it'll never happen.

Edit: might be worried about it's impact on the character bazaar economy, but i'm out of that business so idc.

Macvombat
Posted - 2011.06.18 20:19:00 - [13]
 

I can't believe so many people agree that this is a good idea.. it really isn't.. in fact, it's one of the worst ideas posted on these forums for quite a while..
what you are essentially suggesting is to make everyone capable of flying supercaps and titans within the first year of playing

apparently you (and a few other people in this thread) play the skill tree instead of the actual game.. training those 19 day skills isn't bad at all if you actually played the game while training.. besides, you need some time to earn the isk to get the shiny titan you want

oh - i forgot.. you just buy plexes..

and to answer your actual question: Veterans would leave, major kick in the balls.. more new players would probably hang around for a while but eventually leave the game anyways..

tl;dr

**** NO!

Victor Ettel
Posted - 2011.06.18 21:08:00 - [14]
 

Lookit dat bitter poasting

Dr Caymus
Gallente
Applied Technologies Inc
Agents of Fortune
Posted - 2011.06.18 23:50:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: WarProfit
What would happen if all level training time was reduced to 50% or more?

We'd train skills faster. I'd finish faster and I'd get bored faster. Can you imagine how epic that fail would be?

I think quite the opposite: The skill system should not be finite; the end should not be attainable. Rather, there should be 6th and 7th skill levels, requiring progressively more time to train (with skill benefits remapped accordingly). This would make the skill system for all practical purposes open ended, providing a much deeper and more provocative character to this unique element of game-play.

Dr Caymus
-=ATI=-



Victor Ettel
Posted - 2011.06.19 05:16:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Dr Caymus
Originally by: WarProfit
What would happen if all level training time was reduced to 50% or more?

We'd train skills faster. I'd finish faster and I'd get bored faster. Can you imagine how epic that fail would be?

I think quite the opposite: The skill system should not be finite; the end should not be attainable. Rather, there should be 6th and 7th skill levels, requiring progressively more time to train (with skill benefits remapped accordingly). This would make the skill system for all practical purposes open ended, providing a much deeper and more provocative character to this unique element of game-play.

Dr Caymus
-=ATI=-





Bored of logging in to queue skills, that must be serious burnout.

I think quite the opposite: The skill system is finite, but the end is not attainable currently, nor would it be with 1/2 training time since half of 25 years is still more years than even your character has been training. So even in terms of remaining practical and open-ended, a 50% reduction in training time would do nothing more than give ccp a little incentive to develope the game before we see the 12th anniversary roll around, providing deeper and more provocative gameplay for more characters and individuals.

Dr Skillqueue
-=nVidia=-

WarProfit
Posted - 2011.06.20 19:15:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Dr Caymus

We'd train skills faster. I'd finish faster and I'd get bored faster. Can you imagine how epic that fail would be?


Dr Caymus
-=ATI=-






Interesting.... you are obviously an elite who has devoted alot of time and resources to this game.

The reason behind my originial post is that recently I tried to recruit 3 RL friends to join EVE and give it a try since we enjoy each others company on other MMO games. After some bribes of beer they started a trial account and we started to have fun. Fast forward 4 weeks later and I quote "It will take years to fly anything worth competing inregards to pvp in this game" (Iknow that statemnt is not true and I tried to convince them otherwise), so 3 new trial accounts sit empty atleast they gave me what little isk they made.

I think if they did something different with the training times maybe new subscriptions will increase thus adding more currency into the Eve market and thus more profit for senior players or not. After reading alot of the comments they all seem to be split, yes it would be nice, no thats bs and I would rage quit seems to be the norm.

Really if you think its bs I think you should quit now because inevitably this game will end someday and when it does the subscriber base will have already disappeared and the only ones left will be those elite players *****ing that there arent enough players playing and wondering why.


What if you could train multiple toons at once instead of dual boxing?




Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.06.20 19:23:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 20/06/2011 19:25:41
I think the game's content should be exciting and fun enough to play it, not endlessly waiting to be able to fly a ship. As i said elsewhere, the meaning XP or SP should be that new players can gradually learn the game, not a purpose in itself.

If it was up to me, you'd train 10 times as fast.

I like games where teamplay and player skill is the most important, not your crippled versatility because it takes years to skill up. How can you learn to fit and fly a ship if you're not allowed to fly "because of SP" in the first place?

To me it makes no sense at all. Even with my 30 million SP I'm still lacking a lot of skills to be able to fly most ships efficiently. And that's just subcaps and combat only.

Nelson Black
Posted - 2011.06.20 19:34:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Victor Ettel
Originally by: Dr Caymus
Originally by: WarProfit
What would happen if all level training time was reduced to 50% or more?

We'd train skills faster. I'd finish faster and I'd get bored faster. Can you imagine how epic that fail would be?

I think quite the opposite: The skill system should not be finite; the end should not be attainable. Rather, there should be 6th and 7th skill levels, requiring progressively more time to train (with skill benefits remapped accordingly). This would make the skill system for all practical purposes open ended, providing a much deeper and more provocative character to this unique element of game-play.

Dr Caymus
-=ATI=-





Bored of logging in to queue skills, that must be serious burnout.

I think quite the opposite: The skill system is finite, but the end is not attainable currently, nor would it be with 1/2 training time since half of 25 years is still more years than even your character has been training. So even in terms of remaining practical and open-ended, a 50% reduction in training time would do nothing more than give ccp a little incentive to develope the game before we see the 12th anniversary roll around, providing deeper and more provocative gameplay for more characters and individuals.

Dr Skillqueue
-=nVidia=-


A perfectly logical response and you managed to completely mock Caymus at the same time.

Well played sir, well played.

Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2011.06.20 22:43:00 - [20]
 

ITT: whiny noobs that think this is a game of skillpoints rather than spaceships. Go play the freaking game, this is not WoW where the content starts at max level.

Nelson Black
Posted - 2011.06.21 00:27:00 - [21]
 

Funny how the newbs/trolls make better arguments than the vets here.

Standard fare, I know, but still amusing.

Vierego
Vierego's Junk Imports
Posted - 2011.06.21 03:31:00 - [22]
 

Hmm, maybe 30 days of 2x/4x/8x(your choice) ect training speed. In order to not punish the old timers, they too would get a month of the same speed tacked on.

Daniela Darr
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.21 05:35:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Daniela Darr on 21/06/2011 05:35:26
Originally by: Drykor
ITT: whiny noobs that think this is a game of skillpoints rather than spaceships. Go play the freaking game, this is not WoW where the content starts at max level.

If it's not about SP why not speed up the acquisition rate so we can actually fly those ships you're talking about?

If it's not about SP why not biomass your character and start anew, it's not about SP anyway?

Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2011.06.21 11:31:00 - [24]
 

I never said SP is not useful, but the game does not revolve around it. The key here is not to give in to the instant gratification that people now seem to be used to from other games, but to let the journey itself be worthwhile. This will make the game more fun in the long run.

The early MMO's never let you get to max level that fast like games like WoW did, but a lot of other MMO's do now. You can either like that or not (I don't) but in Eve having a lot of SP does not mean you're invulnerable to lower SP characters either so it doesn't mean as much as it does in some games where 10 levels difference means the other guy is basically unkillable.

It's good that the learning skills are removed and you don't have to train useless-but-mandatory stuff for 2 months, but be aware this means that a lot of the small stuff is used a lot less already. You can get into bigger ships fairly fast now. Who spends more than a day or 2 in a frigate now?
If everyone had almost instant access to all ships, then a lot of content (and fun content at that) would instantly become useless. For example the frigates again which is already a fairly short stop at the moment. These would almost instantly be redundant as you can almost immediately get to a destroyer or cruiser. But learning to fly a frigate effectively is actually a lot of fun. Why throw that experience away?

Another example, when moving on in the game you often learn to fly tacklers now, getting access to interceptors, flying those in fleets, learning to pilot your ship, learning the basics of pvp. People tend to fly these because it takes time to progress into other ships. That is not because interceptors are not FUN, but because people will always want to fly bigger ships with better tanks or higher damage. Again, it is a fallacy that it is more fun in the long run to get instant access to those.

If anything, learning has only increased in speed over the years with first the easier learning skills (no prereq of level 5 for the basic ones before you can put in advanced), then their removal, and implants becoming a lot cheaper due to the LP store. These are defininitely good changes if you ask me. But learning speed does not need another boost just because there are some people that fail to understand this game does not determine your succes or fun based on what ship you can sit in.

Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.06.21 12:14:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 21/06/2011 12:15:01
Originally by: Drykor
If everyone had almost instant access to all ships, then a lot of content (and fun content at that) would instantly become useless. For example the frigates again which is already a fairly short stop at the moment. These would almost instantly be redundant as you can almost immediately get to a destroyer or cruiser. But learning to fly a frigate effectively is actually a lot of fun. Why throw that experience away?

* I still fly frigates (mostly T2 though) and I think they're fun. Being able to fly battleships hasn't taken that away but at least I have the choice;
* Next to that you can not undock for 3 months and get the same result, you're still not forced to fly them; EVE's skilltraining method doesn't force you into learning anything at all.
* Flying frigates with low SP or high SP makes it another ship. You may hopelessly fail a mission and do the same thing a month later and be overpowered just because you do twice the damage and have twice the tank just because of SP.
* What you fly is also determined by your income, not just your skills.

Quote:
Another example, when moving on in the game you often learn to fly tacklers now, getting access to interceptors, flying those in fleets, learning to pilot your ship, learning the basics of pvp. People tend to fly these because it takes time to progress into other ships. That is not because interceptors are not FUN, but because people will always want to fly bigger ships with better tanks or higher damage. Again, it is a fallacy that it is more fun in the long run to get instant access to those.

But effectively people do train for t1 cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships before they learn to fly interceptors. I could even fly a Tengu before I could fly interceptors. The thing is that most players first want to have some steady income before they think of making fun and losing ships "don't fly what you can't afford to lose". Which means doing L4s in many if not most cases.

Quote:
But learning speed does not need another boost just because there are some people that fail to understand this game does not determine your succes or fun based on what ship you can sit in.

Well this is a two sided argument. If your ship doesn't determine your succes or fun, why not allow people into more ships faster? And as said before, why don't people biomass their characters a bit more often but hold on to their SP advantage like there's no tomorrow?

Faith Clothos
Posted - 2011.06.21 12:19:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Drykor
I never said SP is not useful, but the game does not revolve around it. The key here is not to give in to the instant gratification that people now seem to be used to from other games, but to let the journey itself be worthwhile. This will make the game more fun in the long run.

The early MMO's never let you get to max level that fast like games like WoW did, but a lot of other MMO's do now. You can either like that or not (I don't) but in Eve having a lot of SP does not mean you're invulnerable to lower SP characters either so it doesn't mean as much as it does in some games where 10 levels difference means the other guy is basically unkillable.

It's good that the learning skills are removed and you don't have to train useless-but-mandatory stuff for 2 months, but be aware this means that a lot of the small stuff is used a lot less already. You can get into bigger ships fairly fast now. Who spends more than a day or 2 in a frigate now?
If everyone had almost instant access to all ships, then a lot of content (and fun content at that) would instantly become useless. For example the frigates again which is already a fairly short stop at the moment. These would almost instantly be redundant as you can almost immediately get to a destroyer or cruiser. But learning to fly a frigate effectively is actually a lot of fun. Why throw that experience away?

Another example, when moving on in the game you often learn to fly tacklers now, getting access to interceptors, flying those in fleets, learning to pilot your ship, learning the basics of pvp. People tend to fly these because it takes time to progress into other ships. That is not because interceptors are not FUN, but because people will always want to fly bigger ships with better tanks or higher damage. Again, it is a fallacy that it is more fun in the long run to get instant access to those.

If anything, learning has only increased in speed over the years with first the easier learning skills (no prereq of level 5 for the basic ones before you can put in advanced), then their removal, and implants becoming a lot cheaper due to the LP store. These are defininitely good changes if you ask me. But learning speed does not need another boost just because there are some people that fail to understand this game does not determine your succes or fun based on what ship you can sit in.


Then make the ships themselves be fun to fly. PEople should fly things because they WANT TO, not because they can't fly anything else.

At the moment it takes one day to get into a destroyer, and maybe two days after that to get into a cruiser. But really what people want is to get into T2/T3 faster, you know, the "fun" ships.

Instead of being a strategic game with lots of options in practice there are few options for the average player (read, not the 30 million + alts) because either they can't fly anything, or can't fit anything without months and months of wait.

Surely there is a better way to do things.

Training is a lot faster than when the game started, and that has made the game better, not worse. Want to talk about people quitting? Back in the day it was because of the learnings, not because they could fly too many things.

And, finally, this is supposedly a sandbox where people should have options. So where are the options now for a new player?

Scaramouche Jones
Posted - 2011.06.21 13:17:00 - [27]
 

How about adding some new low-sec solar systems with restrictions on the type of ships (and even their fits) that can jump through. They'd probably have to be dead end systems and maybe even to have pretty awesome gate guns to discourage camping. This would create places were new players can engage in PvP on a relatively even basis with older players.

Just an idea.

Dr Caymus
Gallente
Applied Technologies Inc
Agents of Fortune
Posted - 2011.06.21 13:51:00 - [28]
 

LOL, well it would seem that my alternative view of the skill system has ruffled the feathers of a couple of players to the point where they have felt compelled to boldly articulate retorts with their one-day-old alts. Humorous, at best.

War, this much is a concern:

Originally by: WarProfit
The reason behind my originial post is that recently I tried to recruit 3 RL friends to join EVE and give it a try since we enjoy each others company on other MMO games. After some bribes of beer they started a trial account and we started to have fun. Fast forward 4 weeks later and I quote "It will take years to fly anything worth competing inregards to pvp in this game" (I know that statemnt is not true and I tried to convince them otherwise), so 3 new trial accounts sit empty atleast they gave me what little isk they made.


Not because the skilling system is too slow, but because their expectations for the game may have been unreasonable. If they had expected to be able to Esc out of the tutorial after five minutes and find a shiny supercap waiting for them at the curb with the keys in the ignition, then they were in the wrong place. Other games might be more suitable for them.

EVE's a bit different. It is meant to gradually unfold over time, yet with challenging elements of gameplay every step of the way. Recent changes to the skill system have made it possible for new players to very rapidly train into competitive roles, as has been pointed out by others here and in many other threads like this. I really hope your friends will circle back and give EVE another try with the right mindset.

Dr Caymus
-=ATI=-

Irulan Corinno
Caldari
714th SQN - Snowflakes
Posted - 2011.06.21 14:02:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Irulan Corinno on 21/06/2011 14:02:36
Originally by: Dr Caymus
LOL

It's easy taking if you are the one with the most SP in the game.

Still: tell me what's exactly good about training years to be able to have some versatility? "Gradually unfold over time" is a good thing as it may be overwhelming to be able to do everything but 25 years is a bit silly.

Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2011.06.21 14:10:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Irulan Corinno
Edited by: Irulan Corinno on 21/06/2011 14:02:36
Originally by: Dr Caymus
LOL

It's easy taking if you are the one with the most SP in the game.

Still: tell me what's exactly good about training years to be able to have some versatility? "Gradually unfold over time" is a good thing as it may be overwhelming to be able to do everything but 25 years is a bit silly.



No one has played for 25 years yet, yet several hundredthousand people have an Eve account which they apparantly enjoy. Why would you need to be able to do everything with max skill to enjoy yourself? This mindset really is strange to me.


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