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oniplE
MeMento.
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:36:00 - [151]
 

Quote:
Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?

Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.

Congratulations, you have reached a new low. This is by far the worst idea put forward by CCP ever. I honostly can't understand why you would even begin to think this was a good idea. It's appalling, trying to squeeze money out of people that try to improve the game experience. Disgusting.

Kharmino
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:36:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats





I didnt expect me to have to post this two days in a row:

Originally by: Kharmino


CCP WTF?!?!?!?!



Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:38:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Ibn Faldan
Edited by: Ibn Faldan on 15/06/2011 18:35:31
I'm curious, who exactly gets left out in the licensing approach? There is a non-commercial AND a commercial license. And its clear that there are many pragmatic people on here that truly lack an understanding of economics. Eve didn't even HAVE to provide an API, did they? Now they want to make some money back on their time spent up front and ongoing on this, and only for those looking to commercialize their works - exactly how does that put YOU out directly? I want to hear some real stories from real people who will really be left out in the cold by this, not those who have a philosophical disagreement with this.

Fire away.


From the looks of things, anyone asking for donations to help cover server expenses (read: most corp/alliance websites) will now require a commercial license and have their costs increased by $100

Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:38:00 - [154]
 

There is no :facepalm: big enough for this.

Akira Zendragon
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:38:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Andrea Griffin

Red Frog now must pay $99 a year because they have a route calculator on their website. EFT must pay $99 a year because the author kindly asks for donations. BattleClinic must pay $99 a year because they host a giant killboard and have some Google ads.



And it just dawned to me that E-UNI hosts a couple of web-apps and accepts donations to cover hosting costs. I'd like to know just how much $$$ CCP has made because of the work the volunteers at E-UNI have been doing for all these years...

Tjarish
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:38:00 - [156]
 

Really... just no.

Quetazoid
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:39:00 - [157]
 

Quote:
Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?

Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.


How low can you go?

Decon Ko
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:40:00 - [158]
 

Edited by: Decon Ko on 15/06/2011 18:41:02
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats




It really needed the h2 tag, sorry.

Chruker
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:41:00 - [159]
 

Edited by: Chruker on 15/06/2011 18:41:29
I sure hope you guys drink a lot. We dont want you to get too dehydrated from all that pee'ing on your community Rolling Eyes

Sharon Tate
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:41:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.


+1

While I have no issue with licensing for true commercial apps, requiring commercial licenses for ISK supported or donation apps is pretty fail. Even ad supported sites requiring licenses is pretty fail.

All this will do is simply decrease the number of third party apps, and/or eliminate the good free ones.

Azia Burgi
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:42:00 - [161]
 

Edited by: Azia Burgi on 15/06/2011 18:42:32
What happens if you refuse to pay?

This is a sure fire way of killing off a healthy and vibrant ecosystem. Name and shame the people that insisted this was a good idea at fanfest.

Utter nonsense.

Rack Olamb
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:42:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Ibn Faldan
Edited by: Ibn Faldan on 15/06/2011 18:35:31
I'm curious, who exactly gets left out in the licensing approach? There is a non-commercial AND a commercial license. And its clear that there are many pragmatic people on here that truly lack an understanding of economics. Eve didn't even HAVE to provide an API, did they? Now they want to make some money back on their time spent up front and ongoing on this, and only for those looking to commercialize their works - exactly how does that put YOU out directly? I want to hear some real stories from real people who will really be left out in the cold by this, not those who have a philosophical disagreement with this.

Fire away.


From the looks of things, anyone asking for donations to help cover server expenses (read: most corp/alliance websites) will now require a commercial license and have their costs increased by $100


In this respect, I can agree that it would be wise of CCP to consider tweaking this proposal to leave out those who are running ad-supported sites or asking for donations. Those forms of income are optional and as a result, people in this bracket do indeed have something valid to complain about.

Agora Phobic
Gallente
Pinnacle Endeavors
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:42:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Kharmino
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats






Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:42:00 - [164]
 

Ad revenue and ISK payments should really, really NOT require a 99$/year license.
Everything else, sure, why not.
But not those two.


cerbus
Minor Annoyance...
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:43:00 - [165]
 

Question.

If I spend three months designing, marketing and setting up a ingame event that has its own website and mobile apps, is non-profit but requires isk or an ingame item payment to enter, that thousands of people take part in and enjoy with multiple unquantifiable benifits to CCP for FREE, I have to pay $99 for a commercial liscence.




Implying Implications
Minmatar
Broski Enterprises
Elite Space Guild
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:44:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: CCP

GIVE US YOUR MONEY



Matalino
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:44:00 - [167]
 

Edited by: Matalino on 15/06/2011 18:50:15
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free a fee




Fixed that for you.

If the developer is working for free, they are not being charged anything. They just need to fill out a registration form.

Only if the developer is working for a fee, do they need to pay CCP. There is no real difference between developers whose fees are paid by users or paid by those advertising to users. The developer is still getting paid for his efforts in both situations, and should rightfully pay CCP for profiting off of CCP's property.

At least now CCP has a license that allows third party developers to legally profit from their efforts if they want to. If developers don't want to profit from their efforts, they need only fill out a form and carry on as before.

Granted, there should be no fee for ISK based services. Those should be considered purely in-game transactions. Charging a license to collect ISK for game related services is a bad policy that will kill most, if not all, development of such services.

Wollari
Phoenix Industries
Wicked Nation
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:44:00 - [168]
 

Edited by: Wollari on 15/06/2011 18:46:55
Well ... That makes a couple decisions easier for the future. ...

Some thoughts:

- shattered crystal, battleclinic links for gtc stores generate some sort of revenue aswell ... -> commercial

- usual donation buttons, etc never really cover the running cost

- big alliances and web services have running costs of 50-150$ per month. Donations have never reached that goal on monthly basis. If you don't ask or beg for donations (like special things like HW upgrade etc) people are greedy and if you're lucky you get 50% of your running costs

- don't know about revenue from ads since I don't have them yet

- the current rules will change my point of view towards ccp

- fansite vs commercial license. Being listed as fanpage usually give you some kind of benefits on fanfes, account etc. But isn't it strange to either get the smiling thanks from ccp employes for your community work while grabbing your money with the other? Sounds like a fair deal to me.

- giving out commercial licenses or special rules to selected fansites will split the community

- taking part in the eve affliate program gives some sort of revenue aswell. Cool then you're commercial now! Pay CCP money to bring them more customers!

---

I still see a difference in people

- providing a free service or tool while having a donation button for those who really like your work. Advertising for ISK or only eve related stuff only (no google ads, etc)

- people asking isk for their tools and service (example lotteries)

- people asking RL money for their tools (online service or apps) or gaining RL money through advertisment.

---

From my point of view: I'll need more money (maybe through ads) to cover all the future costs, cause I would more likely use the money for my family and my newborn rather then CCP. Sorry CCP

Just hope that fansites and services won't look like bild.de In the future ....



northwesten
Amarr
Trinity Corporate Services
Terran United Federation
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:44:00 - [169]
 

I have the feeling People going to start leaving eve....

Just a feeling but my view on this well I am on the fence until I understand what's what as their confusion going on.

Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari
Deep Space Nomads Corp
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:45:00 - [170]
 

And I thought null sec anomalies changes were stupid.
Now this is a whole new level of stupid.

I agree if you opened some kind of app store some kind of license would possibly be ok, but charging developers who accept isk donations is beyond stupid, you are ****ing on every good thing that those developers do for the community.

CCP, YOU SUCK!

Mitchello
B O R G
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:45:00 - [171]
 

Please do not take this the wrong way.

But if you (CCP) go "wtf" now and crawl back from yet another monetisation experiment gone wrong due to not doing homework properly and just treating this amazing game and commerce potential that is EVE as a maltreated personal playground ..... on a basis of "oops we had a communications hiccup" .... honestly, I won't know what to say.

This is dumb.

What company in this industry consciously aims to decrease the synergy that its users create when the major parts of its sales and ****ing retention plus experience value above core gameplay is so bloody critical for any commercial provisioning of immersive environments.

For a few dollars more. On top of existing revenue targets.

But really, I just have to ask.

1. Was this another "experiment" la let's push MT a little further again under the guise of "oops" while dumping that on a CSM?
2. Or was this another case of "oops communications"?

Please, don't take any of this thread personal. This is business, by your choice.

But regardless of whether it is 1 or 2, this really is not your best week is it.

Ibn Faldan
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:45:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: Sharon Tate
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.


+1

While I have no issue with licensing for true commercial apps, requiring commercial licenses for ISK supported or donation apps is pretty fail. Even ad supported sites requiring licenses is pretty fail.

All this will do is simply decrease the number of third party apps, and/or eliminate the good free ones.


I agree with you Sharon, this license should not extend to ad-supported sites or to those asking for donations. That IS a bit too far. Those who require payment for access to services however, certainly should not have a problem with paying a licensing fee to support the API that feeds them.

Kerrisone
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:45:00 - [173]
 

Here's another question, what are your thoughts that players who made or ran services for other players at no charge but were open to donations to pay the time/effort or server costs to work on the project/pay the bills now turning their services to pay only? So where once players would take the burden of doing something good and being open to player's good will in donations are now strongly pressured to charge a fee for their service as others will do that.

They can give away their work and pay out of pocket for hosting/time spent working on the project while others charge for a similar service. The option is then to pass on the costs to users, keep spending money supporting a service that enhances EVE, or shut it down.

We've had people spend their own money to enhance player's enjoyment of EVE for years, some asked for/accepted nothing and others were open to donations or had ran ads to cover costs(to what efficiency is questionable). You now essentially 'pit' them against each other where some are getting paid, ie they charge and it is popular enough to cover hosting/etc of course after you get your $99 a year. Then others charge and maybe don't cover your $99 or their own expenses, website, development etc. Finally the rest who must give their work away for free and cannot accept anything to cover any costs so they are in a situation where according to you they must pay out of pocket to let anyone use their product/service in the form of hosting/distribution as well as development/updating as nearly any service/app will need.

Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:45:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: Akita T

Ad revenue and ISK payments should really, really NOT require a 99$/year license.
Everything else, sure, why not.
But not those two.




This.

I don't think CCP realizes how bad this game would be without the 3rd party services and only very few of them will continue to exist if they can't even put ads or receive isk donations.

Devblogs like this one really make me fear for the future of this game.

Herr Nerdstrom
Caldari
Havoc Violence and Chaos
Merciless.
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:46:00 - [175]
 

I knew that CCP wasn't really connected with the community, but the apparent bubble that CCP lives in is clearly described here...and I am astonished and disgusted. Any ad-driven EVE Online site is now required to pay RL $$ to CCP for that site? You want to charge for something that is already free? You want people to pay for access to something through a formal license agreement, but then provide *zero* real support when something breaks? Are you serious?

How is this anything but CCP trying to cash in on the work performed by the community? This is right up there with the money laundering scheme introduced through Aurem. I am wondering if CCP is deliberately trying to kill EVE Online, because this is a good step in that direction.

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:47:00 - [176]
 

ok seriously, I've like Ctrl+A, backspace this post 5 times now, tbh I'm out of words.

I would like to know how many 3rd party developer/sites are doing it for the ****ing awesome income it generates?! Seriously, this if anything WILL kill development of sites and services.

As a creator of sites/applications/services for New Eden since well over 6 years now, I can tell you that I have never once created something with the goal to make money off it, this whole thing about needing a license to make something for the community is just ****ing ******ed! Just hearing this makes my interest/will for developing things crash.

This is not about the $99, this is about how you want to charge me because I want to do something for the community out of my free will - does that sense? Do you feel I am stealing your IP, making massive amounts of money off your IP? Then tell me straight up, don't try to bind it into some fluffy clouds and call it "great news".

Every IPO in Market Discussions will now require a license, since after all, it's donations. Corporations should get a license too, I mean having a corp tax of >0.0% could be seen as a donation to the corporation...

And yeah, I guess me and everyone else with an EVE IP tattoo will need a license, I mean, some other geek may think it's awesome and want to buy me a beer...

I'm just very sad to see this even being discussed, talk about a punch in the face. Don't get me wrong, I see your point of EVE IP, and yes I can agree that it may need to be controlled to some extent, but this is not the way. Not by far.

/c

Alijah Mercer
Caldari
King Wholesaling
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:47:00 - [177]
 

Quote:
Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?

Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.


This one is unacceptable. There is absolutely no excuse to charge people who are running businesses that support eve in exchange for in game currency.

If we run a mining service in game and make isk off it will be need this license? No, of course not. So it should be the same for running a service for isk outside the game that relates directly to the game. The eve-commander.com website is a great example of this. There is no excuse for charging someone who is working for isk, real life cash. Your very own rules do not allow the conversion of isk to cash in sales why would you charge cash to a business that is working for isk?

Basically what you are saying is Eve is a sandbox unless the person in the sandbox provides a programming service. Worried about checking these people out? Tough, Eat the $99.00 cost on the ones that are only charging isk for services. Most people are likely greedy and will charge money so you'll be able to get your $99 anyways, but the ones who continue to operate on the game basis and stick with isk payments should be rewarded by being able to avoid this fee.

The most "legal" reward a person working for isk can get is a plex for his account. It's money hungry company BS to try to make an extra buck off this and I believe it's going to hurt the "community" you claim to strive for if you go this route.

I hope you think seriously about this issue. I can see charging $99.00 for a developer to be licensed to produce commercial software if their fee's are in cash or advertisements, but not when it's an isk exchange. In the latter case it is simply a continuation of the sandbox environment you claimed to create.

Jarne
Caldari
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:47:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: cerbus
Originally by: Kate Yeats
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.

stuff


tree quoting in protest of latest ccp troll


**** this... even a free non-commercial license is too much hassle for most people hosting their own small sites, killboards etc. How could anybody developing 3rd-party apps/sites NOT be colossaly ****ed off by this? Spit your customers in the face, CPP. Yes, I said customers, which I would have never considered myself, but now you're making me feel like one in a bad way.

Ibn Faldan
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:47:00 - [179]
 

Originally by: Akita T

Ad revenue and ISK payments should really, really NOT require a 99$/year license.
Everything else, sure, why not.
But not those two.




+1


Qoi
Exert Force
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:49:00 - [180]
 

Quote:
Ad revenue and ISK payments should really, really NOT require a 99$/year license.
Everything else, sure, why not.
But not those two.



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