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Erothe
Posted - 2011.06.20 16:06:00 - [1381]
 

...developers have to pay to make ur game better...

CCP has hit an iceberg, the gamers at the bottom now its sinking but the stupid bigwigs at the top thinks its all going great, good news its going to sink anyway.

Shadalana
Posted - 2011.06.20 16:20:00 - [1382]
 

Originally by: Callean Drevus
Originally by: Goldnut Sachs
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats

now we need that in german and russian too


Sie aufladen menschen, die umsonst arbeiten, um ihren spiel besser zu machen asshats

My 2c (might not be completely correct, but the message should be clear)


to correct the german translation (the message ist not clear...google sucks):

Ihr nehmt Geld von Leuten, welche für Lau arbeiten um Euer Spiel besser zu machen, Arschlöcher!

---

@topic: this news simply sucks...next time try thinking before posting CCP...

Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:29:00 - [1383]
 

Edited by: Consortium Agent on 20/06/2011 17:57:19
Ok, first the good news... I re-enabled all my accounts after CCP began disabling them. Yay me! :P

And it just occurred to me that since so many of us *do* use and *do* enjoy all of the wonderful and critical applications we need on a daily basis - or even once in a great while - perhaps now is the time to show your support in other ways.

Here's how I see it... if CCP intends to charge these guys some genuine ducks to keep spoon feeding the masses the intel, data, tools and techniques that CCP epic failed to even think about much less implement if they accept donations of ISK or RL money, then now is the time to donate to those developers. Let's show our support in dollars and cents (or ISK and AUR, if you please <g>). Even as a 3rd party developer myself I use all these tools, and today I will make an extra effort to support these developers with ISK (only cuz I'm poor in RL but not so bad off in-game lol). I hope others do the same before (or in case, depending on your stance) CCP lays the smack down. Note that I accept neither donations nor charge ISK nor advertise on my sites and therefore don't want anything from anybody for my little tools <g> - but I do think that for the folks who use EveMon, EveHQ, Eve-Central.com, Eve-Kill.net (yes I know they charge ISK for KB's - so buy a KB, see!), etc. etc., now is the time we should show these developers how much we really do appreciate their work. Just sayin'.

*EDIT*
If you're broke in real life and broke in the game, then the best way to show your support is to hit all the Eve related websites and click on the advertisements - especially advertisements that are for EVE Online. Might as well charge the folks for their usually free advertising I say ;) Doh. Hadn't thought of that, had ya CCP? So, go forth and multi-click advertisements today on all your favorite Eve related websites to show your support if you do nothing else. You never know you might even find something cool you didn't know existed out there in ad world ;) Note: for clicks to be effectual (for these guys to get paid) you should spend a minimum of 30 seconds on the websites you are taken to after clicking an advertisement (and should navigate around that site, really), and you should refresh the page and click different advertisements when you return to the Eve related site. Clicks on advertisements are only worth a handful of pennies for the developer usually - and costs you nothing but time, so click on as many as you can. Doing this in general will help your 3rd party developers actually absorb some of their hosting costs. Happy clicking!
*END EDIT*

As for CCP being still quite silent on this I have this to say.... So much for the 'discussion' part of all this (I know, I've said it before, but it bears repeating again and again - it demonstrates to a large extent how CCP truly feels about its players when they cannot even take the time to have discussions with them, especially when they are the ones who offered the discussion in the first place. Note: there will be no other dev blog that includes the words 'discussion' in the context of 'let's have a discussion' ever again. Mark my words.)

So, to CCP *anybody* still lurking around in here... you've opened a wound in your community and, rather than having the discussion with us about it, threw a band-aid at us and have since let the wound fester and turn gangrene. All we (the 3rd party developers and players) wanted was a discussion. When we didn't see things your way you decided you no longer wanted to discuss it. Your silence seems all very childish to me really, as if you're feelings got hurt, and it is definitely ineffectual at solving the problem. Will you continue to let this fester until the smell of black death hangs in the air about you?

Max Fear
Caldari State Navy
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:37:00 - [1384]
 

Ive someone want to earn money ba using EvE IP they should pay money for using.

But for all the other how develop, host und support tools to improve the EvE entertainment just for free or for ISK, CCP has to say "Thanks for your great job!" and not "Gimme u money now!"!

I say "Thanks for the good job!" to all the developers who work for free to suport us at this place!

Missus Malaprop
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:58:00 - [1385]
 

Originally by: Consortium Agent


*EDIT*
If you're broke in real life and broke in the game, then the best way to show your support is to hit all the websites and click on the advertisements - especially ones that are for EVE Online. Might as well charge the folks for their usually free advertising I say ;) Doh. Hadn't thought of that, had ya CCP? So, go forth and multi-click advertisements today on all your favorite Eve related websites to show your support if you do nothing else. You never know you might even find something cool you didn't know existed out there in ad world ;) Note: for clicks to be effectual (for these guys to get paid) you should spend a minimum of 30 seconds on the websites you are taken to after clicking an advertisement (and should navigate around that site, really), and you should refresh the page and click different advertisements when you return to the Eve related site. Clicks on advertisements are only worth a handful of pennies for the developer usually - and costs you nothing but time, so click on as many as you can. Doing this in general will help your 3rd party developers actually absorb some of their hosting costs. Happy clicking!
*END EDIT*



I dont think you have a clue what you're talking about.

Yi Kang
Posted - 2011.06.20 18:19:00 - [1386]
 

I'm curious about what the "penalty phase' is going to be. If I tell CCP to take a flying leap and stil hit their API to run my site without paying them, what will they do about it? Ban my IP? Ban my player account? (which would be interesting since I dont like my web page wiht my account in any way) Maybe take me to court for cyber-tresspassing?

You can't tell me they haven't thought of it. They just haven't rolled it out yet.

TheDoctorUK
Gallente
BSC LEGION
Split Infinity.
Posted - 2011.06.20 19:04:00 - [1387]
 

CCP, Well done, people who develop the likes of EVE-MON, well without them I would of played another game, in fact the 3rd party program kept me in game. And after 3 years I still use it, take that away from the community, escpically the new gamers, because the developers no longer feel there out of game time where they could earn isk is now being charged another $8.25ish a month. They may feel compleed to pull the plug and leave there talent to you CCP. Now CCP put the app in there client, but that's no good as what if I cant log in, because I will get podded, whist wasting time making a skill plan.

Now on-line applications like eve central, who make a little RL cash from the ad's to pay for some servers (tho the person gone to eve-central for a reason not to go to other sites), now you add $99 a year to the bill, the site owners decide to downgrade hardware to cut costs, site runs even slower, to the point they decide to shut down.

Another killed application.

CCP these 3rd party sites keep gamers playing, don't kill them off, If someone wishes to donate ISK to the developer, good they just helped the developer gain some isk towards a plex and that's another 30 days of a happy developer and a another gamer happy.

It all comes down to a old fairground proverb "What you lose on the swings you win on the roundabouts" rephrase that to "What you lose with 3rd party apps you win with more subscriptions"

eXeler0n
Caldari
FrEE d00M Fighters
Ewoks
Posted - 2011.06.20 19:09:00 - [1388]
 

What the hell? Do I have to pay, when I ask for ISK donations on my blog? That really crazy.
I pay for the webspace, I pay for the domain and I run a blog on it. I have no ads on it and I don't ask for isk. But if I do, I have to pay? Twice? Webspace and domain and now 99 Dollars a year?
This blog brings new players to eve, thats money for CCP. Why do I have to pay to CCP to run a free blog what still makes money for ccp?

Aliz Proctel
Posted - 2011.06.20 19:14:00 - [1389]
 

Id be lost without the 3rd party devs. I find playing the game more interesting with them. With out them I think i would leave Eve

coolzero
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.20 19:48:00 - [1390]
 

Originally by: Goldnut Sachs
Kronus Heilgar
Heilgar Trading Corp.
said

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats


now we need that in german and russian too



jullie vragen geld aan mensen die gratis werken en jullie spel beter te maken eikels.

added dutch translation :D


Trax Darkstorm
Caldari
Commonwealth Mercenaries
Posted - 2011.06.20 19:52:00 - [1391]
 

I won't rehash all the points made in this thread but will just say i think this is a terrible idea and will kill off one of the best 3rd party developer community's around. I see no point in this whatsoever

LeiYingLo
Rhymin and Stealin
Posted - 2011.06.20 20:12:00 - [1392]
 

No Dev response for a while, but someone at CCP *IS* looking at this thread...

It just got un-stickied!!!

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Harisdrop
Gallente
Vindicate and Deliverance
Posted - 2011.06.20 20:36:00 - [1393]
 

Think like a capitalist. Charge for the cost and not worry about it. Who says it has to be free to your customers.

Gene Windstar
Posted - 2011.06.20 21:25:00 - [1394]
 

Edited by: Gene Windstar on 20/06/2011 21:25:38
"Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers."

Originally by: CCP Zulu
Quote:
Hello all.

At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say I‘m impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.

There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.

It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).

It‘s obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.

Unfortunately that will take some time and we‘re kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.

So what we‘ll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.

As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.

Arnar Hrafn Gylfason
Senior Producer of EVE Online



Saying this well in the meantime unsticking the thread Rolling Eyes What hoping it will disappear? I guess we know what you think of our input and having a discussion, and well it may be hard to look at this thread for you, plain and simply, you messed up and you will have to live with that. People are annoyed and rather angry about this, even if it is a misunderstanding i dont think this will just disappear like you hope until people get an answer or apology for the lack of proofreading this "early" draft (which i might add wasn't labeled as such when it was released, just mentioning feedback could imply you might do this as early as next week) or CSM (you know....those guys you fly over and everything that are supposed to be in the loop Confused) input. This is a PR disaster and you need to activate your Damage Control before you incur any more damage.

Azran Zala
Fleet of the Damned
Legion of The Damned.
Posted - 2011.06.20 21:59:00 - [1395]
 

Edited by: Azran Zala on 20/06/2011 22:29:44

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats




Mad

Without free tools like EVEmon, Dotlan, Capital Jump planners (OMG CCP JUMP PLANNER SHOULD BE BUILT IN), EFT, and Postracker, Outofeve, eve-kill, ect
This game would be virtually unplayable.
The small donations (almost always only of isk) that some of these developers ask for, doesnt even cover their hosting costs, it just makes up for time they could have spent making isk ingame.

Glad you've decided to revise your original draft. Awaiting the update.

Kaludan
Posted - 2011.06.20 22:04:00 - [1396]
 

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats





This.

I play this game because the fan base and player created content makes it awesome.

This might make sense if you host every aspect of their business.

Stoned Dragonias
Amarr
Southern Cross Empire
Flying Dangerous
Posted - 2011.06.20 22:16:00 - [1397]
 

Edited by: Stoned Dragonias on 20/06/2011 22:17:29
Originally by: Gene Windstar
Edited by: Gene Windstar on 20/06/2011 21:25:38
"Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers."

Originally by: CCP Zulu
Quote:
Hello all.

At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say I‘m impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.

There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.

It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).

It‘s obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.

Unfortunately that will take some time and we‘re kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.

So what we‘ll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.

As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.

Arnar Hrafn Gylfason
Senior Producer of EVE Online



Saying this well in the meantime unsticking the thread Rolling Eyes What hoping it will disappear? I guess we know what you think of our input and having a discussion, and well it may be hard to look at this thread for you, plain and simply, you messed up and you will have to live with that. People are annoyed and rather angry about this, even if it is a misunderstanding i dont think this will just disappear like you hope until people get an answer or apology for the lack of proofreading this "early" draft (which i might add wasn't labeled as such when it was released, just mentioning feedback could imply you might do this as early as next week) or CSM (you know....those guys you fly over and everything that are supposed to be in the loop Confused) input. This is a PR disaster and you need to activate your Damage Control before you incur any more damage.

It will disappear, let me direct you to this thread http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1487231 it's at 117 pages with no real response from CCP, and the thread is now on the second page of the forum. You think they really care what we have to say LOL! The only thing corporations listen to is money, when you hurt the bottom line then they listen.

Vaedian GER
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2011.06.20 23:37:00 - [1398]
 

Edited by: Vaedian GER on 20/06/2011 23:47:03


You're unable to provide a forum with a search function and now you wanna charge Chribba for it? Pathetic, really.

Orgas Mando
Posted - 2011.06.21 04:05:00 - [1399]
 

Edited by: Orgas Mando on 21/06/2011 04:10:14
Talking about the "New player experience" here.

One of the first useful advises, when i started playing was "GET EFT, GET EVEMON,Crazy-cool OOG-tools that let you plan your ships and your character with!".(Saves you dieing in LOL-fits, and ragequit, before the fun starts) And today, i say the same thing to New Players.

If CCP had come up with some(Incredibliy "innovative" and"Awesome") ingame tools, that'd do basically the same as eft, or evemon,such a license would be somewhat feasible. Not nice, but feasible.

To me,those tools,developed by none other than loyal and dedicated customers of CCP, are like the limbs of a Body.Without them you would simply lose the grasp on EVE and leave it.

If CCP wants to get new players, a simple new tutorial isn't enough.It is mostly the community that encourages the newb to stay and sometimes lead them. Those 3rd party apps do the same.Or at least help them to do so,and i love them devs for it.

CCP should change their policy in that regard, as to only charge, when the third party dev is charging real money for his app/service.period.
No fancy wording,no rage.


Serkanay
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.21 05:26:00 - [1400]
 

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats




Devil tiger
Posted - 2011.06.21 06:08:00 - [1401]
 

Well my sub runs out today... And frankly if this **** goes through as is, I've no reason to keep paying & playing 15€ a month.
It's the 3rd party app's that keep EvE afloat and make it really different from other mmo's.

Moe Lesture
Wrath of Fenris
Narwhals Ate My Duck
Posted - 2011.06.21 06:27:00 - [1402]
 

Edited by: Moe Lesture on 21/06/2011 06:29:09

IF it is about money...

GIVE US NIGHTMARE AND MACH SHIP MODELS TO BUY - Instant Million Bucks.. Guaranteed.



DO NOT MONETIZE US




Argolion
Posted - 2011.06.21 10:48:00 - [1403]
 

I don't like your idea CCP. It is just those people who bring in new players.

I'd like to see some response to this threat from your site. The community is telling you what they think. And you should think about to make this game better, not worse.

Regards
Argolion

Maple Mudge
Posted - 2011.06.21 11:12:00 - [1404]
 

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Easley Thames
The Maverick Navy
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2011.06.21 11:17:00 - [1405]
 

Maybe you can expand free licenses to include people who make money from ads.

You still get the added control because of the conditions in the contract they agree to, but you don't break the back of shoe-string budget operations.


Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.06.21 13:17:00 - [1406]
 

*sigh*

CCP... If you think unsticking the thread is going to help....

BUMP

Doh!

Roan Pico
Amarr
I- T I E -I
Posted - 2011.06.21 13:33:00 - [1407]
 

Originally by: Vaedian GER
Edited by: Vaedian GER on 20/06/2011 23:47:03


You're unable to provide a forum with a search function and now you wanna charge Chribba for it? Pathetic, really.


New Forums with search are already running/are in test, same with agent finder which is now ingame with Incarna... people like Chribba were used to provide features ccp wasnt able/willed (for what reasons ever) to do themselves (ofc free for ccp).

Now, ccp goes big business with Incarna and Dust (player base is big and stable enough for that now)... yesterdays pawns are competitors today and get either milked for the bling or starved out.

I can already smell a range of ccp-made tools, formerly provided by players and free to use - then payable by that aurum thingy...

Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
Posted - 2011.06.21 13:47:00 - [1408]
 

Originally by: Roan Pico
yesterdays pawns are competitors today and get either milked for the bling or starved out.

I can already smell a range of ccp-made tools, formerly provided by players and free to use - then payable by that aurum thingy...


*BUMP*

mogiie
Posted - 2011.06.21 13:50:00 - [1409]
 


Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Dyner
Minmatar
Midgard Protectorate
Posted - 2011.06.21 15:47:00 - [1410]
 

Edited by: Dyner on 21/06/2011 15:47:29
Originally by: Roan Pico

I can already smell a range of ccp-made tools, formerly provided by players and free to use - then payable by that aurum thingy...


And you'll quickly see that "stable player base" dry up. No way in Hell will I pay for something that was FREE and I bet most of the players share that sentiment.

EDIT:
Just realized this topic will probably be locked soon; so spread the word in-game and on fansites.


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