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Joshke
Posted - 2011.06.19 23:05:00 - [1351]
 

Sorry, but this "great" idea is simply bull****.

Macks Artilius
Posted - 2011.06.19 23:22:00 - [1352]
 

"Good news, everyone. Tomorrow you'll be making a delivery to Ebola 9, the virus planet."

- Professor Hubert Farnsworth

This right here? This is not good news. Zulu, I know you're "swamped" right now, but if we've "misunderstood" due to "confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document" then maybe you could take just 5 minutes to explain what exactly these misunderstandings are? Because there is a lot of poo-flinging being directed at your employers in this thread and I really think it would be in your interest to clear this up ASAP!

Gene Windstar
Posted - 2011.06.19 23:27:00 - [1353]
 

Originally by: Scarlet Vixen
Originally by: Lord Googoo
Originally by: Scarlet Vixen
Hey,

I don't see the big deal. I noticed some of you reference EFT and EVE Mon, those are NON-COMMERCIAL applications, meaning they pay nothing (as long as they stop asking for donations, or CCP changes the current agreement, but I could understand if they didn't, money is money regardless of where it comes from) they just have to agree to the terms for using the EVE licensed materials.

If you're running a corp site, or alliance site you can use the materials without need for a license as long as it's a private site, so you can keep running your kill boards, etc.

This is aimed at applications that do charge, like the Strategic Maps (which are great) and charge real money and EVE Commander that charges ISK. If you're going to create a commercial app and make money or isk (since isk translates into money these days by converting them to plex) it makes perfect sense and is very reasonable. CCP used to charge $100,000 a year + royalties, so this change is huge and will benefit a variety of developers.

I think it's great and I applaud CCP for making their licensing structure down to a level where it opens up the possibility to everyone, even a High School student can afford $99 a year when they're potentially going to make 10x or more on their app.


After 45 pages of people explaining it, you really don't get it?

I agree, people who charge real world money for their apps/services need to pay for some sort of license as they are profiting off of CCP's IP.

However, ISK ≠ real world money. You can convert money to PLEX, which can be converted into ISK, but you cannot convert ISK into $$$$$ unless you RMT. There IS a difference between charging $ for services like Strategic Maps and charging ISK.


But you can spend ISK to buy PLEX in order to pay for your account, which I would imagine for CCP translates into real-world-money. Whether you're spending $5 for an iPhone app to check your skills, or paying 350 million ISK to buy $15 dollers worth of game time, in the end it translates into or potentially into (but CCP has to be able to control both under one dynamic) real-world-money for the seller, who is benefiting from the transaction.

So no, ISK = Money for CCP if PLEX is involved. Just because someone else bought the PLEX, now the seller of the app is "buying" that plex of the original purchasers, it's still money. And since CCP can't tell if the seller is going to buy a PLEX with the ISK they've earned from ISK received from an app, then they'd have to charge everyone to keep it standardized and to potentially cover said scenario.


You do realize thats a complete load right?
Plex have already been paid for in real funds which amount to more than a quarterly subscription and the same as a monthly one, heck overall many people sub in 3 month or more intervals, making plexus more profitable for ccp. How in any way do they lose money when people fund with plex cards, heck even if these people made enough for a plex (which I might add most don't), the increased demand for them is overall a higher profit for ccp (again assuming they sub for at least 3 month blocks), and worse case they still have made the amount they would have if the person hadn't used a pled and it wasn't bought in the first place. Pled are not real money under any situation, they can be lost just like any other item, which if they do have a real cash value after redemption makes it legaly flaky for ccp to make them destroy on drop, essentualy voiding prepaid services. Are you suggesting my dread booster has cash value if a person buys it with a donation and sells it high to buy a plex?



Also, the isk is there one way or another as someone had to gain it, heck, miners can fund on plex with enough work, a CEO can use Corp tax to buy them, but somehow when it's related to donations it's real money?

Goldnut Sachs
Posted - 2011.06.20 00:23:00 - [1354]
 

Kronus Heilgar
Heilgar Trading Corp.
said

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats


now we need that in german and russian too

Sherksilver
Posted - 2011.06.20 00:28:00 - [1355]
 

Originally by: Scarlet Vixen
Hey,

I don't see the big deal. I noticed some of you reference EFT and EVE Mon, those are NON-COMMERCIAL applications, meaning they pay nothing (as long as they stop asking for donations, or CCP changes the current agreement, but I could understand if they didn't, money is money regardless of where it comes from) they just have to agree to the terms for using the EVE licensed materials.

If you're running a corp site, or alliance site you can use the materials without need for a license as long as it's a private site, so you can keep running your kill boards, etc.

This is aimed at applications that do charge, like the Strategic Maps (which are great) and charge real money and EVE Commander that charges ISK. If you're going to create a commercial app and make money or isk (since isk translates into money these days by converting them to plex) it makes perfect sense and is very reasonable. CCP used to charge $100,000 a year + royalties, so this change is huge and will benefit a variety of developers.

I think it's great and I applaud CCP for making their licensing structure down to a level where it opens up the possibility to everyone, even a High School student can afford $99 a year when they're potentially going to make 10x or more on their app.


The problem with this is the clause that states 'Accepts Donations' whether you ASK for them or NOT. - Kinda tough that, and painful ta boot.

Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.06.20 00:58:00 - [1356]
 

So, in preparation for what seems would be the inevitable I asked CCP what the refund policies are on my accounts... and they began disabling them. :x

I guess I know where I stand, after all.

Good luck and fly safe to all (jic they kill off *all* my accounts). Was good playing with you all and I enjoyed the many years I got to give back to the player community in many small ways. While I hope this is not the end of me, clearly CCP didn't want my business to begin with.

I guess I was too 'vocal' for them this time. :P

Ori Empress
United Systems of the Allegiance
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2011.06.20 01:12:00 - [1357]
 

So...in other words, you've basically stabbed chribba in the back, along with the many other eve community members who develop services and apps for you...for free!? Confused

Mr Rewrite
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.20 01:20:00 - [1358]
 

Originally by: Sherksilver

The problem with this is the clause that states 'Accepts Donations' whether you ASK for them or NOT. - Kinda tough that, and painful ta boot.


and in a world of scumbag accountants running businesses (eg AT&T & Eisner when he was at Disney)....a CCP employee would be ordered to make a donation once a year to all sites they can google "Eve Online" with, thus assuring a steady income from "profit" websites.

Scarlet Vixen
Posted - 2011.06.20 01:59:00 - [1359]
 

Originally by: Gene Windstar


You do realize thats a complete load right?
Plex have already been paid for in real funds which amount to more than a quarterly subscription and the same as a monthly one, heck overall many people sub in 3 month or more intervals, making plexus more profitable for ccp. How in any way do they lose money when people fund with plex cards, heck even if these people made enough for a plex (which I might add most don't), the increased demand for them is overall a higher profit for ccp (again assuming they sub for at least 3 month blocks), and worse case they still have made the amount they would have if the person hadn't used a pled and it wasn't bought in the first place. Pled are not real money under any situation, they can be lost just like any other item, which if they do have a real cash value after redemption makes it legaly flaky for ccp to make them destroy on drop, essentualy voiding prepaid services. Are you suggesting my dread booster has cash value if a person buys it with a donation and sells it high to buy a plex?



Also, the isk is there one way or another as someone had to gain it, heck, miners can fund on plex with enough work, a CEO can use Corp tax to buy them, but somehow when it's related to donations it's real money?


The isk is there one way or another, and miners can fund plex with enough work, but weíre not talking about miners, weíre talking about someone buying plexes by selling a product or service.

And it isnít a complete load.

If pilot A creates an app and makes enough ISK to fund playing EVE through plexes for 12 months, thatís twelve months lost revenue from that pilot. Yes someone else bought the plex already, but if pilot A didnít sell his app perhaps he would have had to resort to paying for a regular subscription. Or he had to mine or rat to build up the isk to buy the plex, in either case those other two other methods didnít require the pilot to sit back and make money in the form of plexes while sitting back selling his commercial app.

It comes down to, pilot A created an app, pilot A sold that app or service, because of that pilot A either made money or made isk that was converted to money in the form of buying $15 plex. And even if s/he didnít buy plexes, CCP has to account for it occurring.


Jubal Sexton
Minmatar
Liberty Storm
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.06.20 02:10:00 - [1360]
 

Geez remember when the internet was young and there were thousands of Star Trek fan-sites? Some were quite awesome! The old adage was Star Trek and p_*n built the internet. Then Viacom/Paramount decided if they could just shut all these unauthorized fan-sites down for copyright infringements. That they could get all this traffic directed to Startrek.com and make a whole bunch more money. Of course this boneheaded move virtually killed the entire Star Trek franchise in the process! (I know there were other factors involved cough..Berman, Braga...cough) but they eliminated a massive host of free advertising on the internet, alienating their fan-base to boot! Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it... I'm just sayin...

Brujo Loco
Amarr
Brujeria Teologica
Posted - 2011.06.20 03:04:00 - [1361]
 

Woa guys, Since when the US GREED managed to set sail to ICELAND????

No really guys, WTH you smoking? Are you eating dried shark ****ed on, rotting and then placing it in a Hamburguer bun with fries and Coke?

I'm amazed at you guys, no really, you suddenly hired what? a Marvelous team of "Superior Business Analysts" that decided this was the best move for the company? LOL

Are you insane? Are you all so out of touch with the community that believe this CRAP was actually good? I'm a Cynicist and overall I have a high tolerance from some of the Management "wrecking hits" that have come lately from CCP from the past couple years, but this really hits the LOWEST OF THE LOW.

No really, Great idea? So in short you just want your game to implode into a faceless entity of fast food convenience with this ABSURD out of touch and reality moves? Seriously guys, I'm a Psychologist, I can give you free personal advice if you ever want it regarding your anger and lack of foresight issues, destroy your cars, your silly Plasma TV's, but why EVE?

I'm serious, If you ever come to Panama I can treat all of you in an orderly fashion , because honestly, there's something wrong with you all.

After years simply and tacitly accepting some of your most ridiculous ideas, honestly, this has been the most absurd, idiotic, and severely badly executed "managerial" decision you guys ever made.

I know the forums might seem like a small pond compared to the playerbase, but guys please reconsider the sheer absuridity of what you are proposing. This is no longer a game that generates revenue bussines, this is now a business that revenues the game.

For all that matters why dont you all begin selling fully fitted ships and Skill packages that set your skill sets for a week to 5 for a nice combo price of just 14.99$? Or how about 19.99 for all Race skills to 5 for 1 month? Hey even better, 1$=1000 Skill points, that way we can all buy high skill characters right away and begin "AMARR LEVEL 5 skillset LFG to farm SANSHAS" in local.

No seriously, you guys so OUT OF TOUCH of whatever community you think you "have" that Im worried real CCP devs are being kept locked in a dark basement and spoonfed fake forum post saying we all love this.

Hey, careful, you might choke on the 100$ bills if you try to gobble them too fast. meh Mad

Sijakta Ho Pakrsh
Sultanate of Rum
Posted - 2011.06.20 03:46:00 - [1362]
 

"The smell of greed will betray you when you speak
as much as the onions you have eaten."

~Rumi

Da Death
Minmatar
Relentless Enterprises
Ore Federation
Posted - 2011.06.20 04:39:00 - [1363]
 

Originally by: Sijakta Ho Pakrsh
"The smell of greed will betray you when you speak
as much as the onions you have eaten.
"

~Rumi


+1

Lord Googoo
Posted - 2011.06.20 05:27:00 - [1364]
 

Originally by: Scarlet Vixen

The isk is there one way or another, and miners can fund plex with enough work, but weíre not talking about miners, weíre talking about someone buying plexes by selling a product or service.

And it isnít a complete load.

If pilot A creates an app and makes enough ISK to fund playing EVE through plexes for 12 months, thatís twelve months lost revenue from that pilot. Yes someone else bought the plex already, but if pilot A didnít sell his app perhaps he would have had to resort to paying for a regular subscription. Or he had to mine or rat to build up the isk to buy the plex, in either case those other two other methods didnít require the pilot to sit back and make money in the form of plexes while sitting back selling his commercial app.

It comes down to, pilot A created an app, pilot A sold that app or service, because of that pilot A either made money or made isk that was converted to money in the form of buying $15 plex. And even if s/he didnít buy plexes, CCP has to account for it occurring.




I don't want to get into a huge discussion so this will be my last post.

"It comes down to, pilot A created an app, pilot A sold that app or service, because of that pilot A either made money or made isk that was converted to money in the form of buying $15 plex. And even if s/he didnít buy plexes, CCP has to account for it occurring."

I see what you're trying to say, however, Pilot A creating an app and receiving ISK for said app is still not the same as Pilot A creating an app and charging people REAL WORLD MONEY. Get that out of your head.

Pilot A creating an app is no different than someone like Chribba charging for a third-party service for ISK. Whether Pilot A or someone like Chribba/Darknesss/Grendell chooses to pay for their playtime with PLEX bought with ISK is not in violation of anything as far as I know.

CCP is not losing funds from Pilot A if he or she chooses to buy PLEX. These PLEX are already bought and paid for by someone else. Pilot A has every right to use ISK he made from an app to buy PLEX for game time (as long as Pilot A did NOT charge real money for said app). Just like any miner/trader who made ISK playing the market in-game has the right to buy PLEX.

What is the statute of limitations with something like this? Someone creates an app and receives donations in the form of ISK and they must pay a $99/year fee? Well offering a third-party service is part of the supercapital trade, so all those third-party services need to pay $99/year? What about people who offer a freight service? Do they still need to pay $99/year? What about mercenary alliances/corps? Do they need to pay $99/year for offering a service?

No matter how you want to spin it, ISK has no real world value. I can't go to my local grocery store and expect to pay them in ISK. Once those GTCs have been converted into PLEX, they have lost their real world value and instead are considered in-game goods.

Again... ISK ≠ Real world currency. Therefore, CCP shouldn't charge people real world currency for ISK obtained from creating apps or any other in-game services.

Laser Purification
Posted - 2011.06.20 06:03:00 - [1365]
 

Originally by: Scarlet Vixen

If pilot A creates an app and makes enough ISK to fund playing EVE through plexes for 12 months, thatís twelve months lost revenue from that pilot.



Yes. But one pilot is pretty much irrelevant when compared to the huge number of people who had a better Eve experience / didn't unsubscribe due to this popular addition the individual made. And it must be popular because most of the people adding to Eve are probably doing so at a loss.

Watching CCP's fumbling attempts at community building and game design is about 40% of my enjoyment of Eve. I'm glad they haven't disappointed.


Mystarra
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2011.06.20 06:19:00 - [1366]
 

Anyone want to make bets on when they are going to announce that they are switching to an F2P structure?

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.20 06:42:00 - [1367]
 

Prison inmates to new arrival: ďHi there and welcome to prison. We have great news. During your stay here we will be introducing you to a new and exciting program in the showers. Itís called, Drop the soap and get a surprise. We think youíll find it to be designed for maximum stimulus and believe youíll find it enhances your prison experience greatly.Ē

Right now EVE is a level playing field for people willing to pay CCP a subscription fee. Introducing a program which allows third party developers to charge real money potentially (read that as probably) means that players will have to pay more real money to remain competitive in the game.

Most EVE players I know are poor and are not going to pay more than they already do. Create a situation in which they have to pay more and more simply to remain competitive and theyíll just find something else to do.

You say you just want to protect yourselves? Fine. Issue licenses for free. A license does not have to allow developers to charge real money or any other kind of money. CCP you should be paying these people yourselves for doing the work you should have done.

Iíve only played this game for five years, but I have never seen a response like this. Forty-six pages and growing. People I like, people I dislike, people who dislike me, idiots and very intelligent peopleÖÖÖÖÖ..almost every one of them think this is the worst idea for a game company theyíve ever heard.

-Windjammer

Sinfonius
Posted - 2011.06.20 07:29:00 - [1368]
 

Edited by: Sinfonius on 20/06/2011 07:29:30
Is there something like a raspberry award but for video game companies? If so we should nominate CCP. They are a shoo in.

estelle autinos
Posted - 2011.06.20 08:49:00 - [1369]
 

CCP you seem to be doing a wonderfull job of pi**ing off your clientele in the last few months.

Ebon Rue
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.20 09:08:00 - [1370]
 

Notch from Minecraft tried to charge $5 for a license fee for people to use their API. The intent was to weed out non serious garbage mod makers, not to make more money. Regardess, the backlash from the community was so intense he quickly changed his mind and offered it for free, even though it will be creating more work for his company.

And that was just a $15 single purchase game with a $5 license fee....

Set's Chaos
Posted - 2011.06.20 09:43:00 - [1371]
 

I'm excited for what this could be. Eve-Metrics and Capsuleer might still be around if you had acted on this sooner. With that said, though, the way you're going about this is all wrong. From the particular timing, to the way it was revealed, and down to the very way it's being instituted is just wrong. The way I feel has been posted again and again here, and probably written better than I can. I'd just like to add that if any of the apps/websites I use (Evemon, EveHQ, EveFT, Eve-central and Aura) go by the wayside because of this half-baked plan, that'll be it for me and Eve.

As an aside; if you're so "swamped" with Incarna, this was a bad idea to release this information now.

Wivina Kane
Posted - 2011.06.20 11:56:00 - [1372]
 

i have huge respect for the developers of apps for this game, i use evemon and evehq like i suspect 99% of the players i know.

please don't do this ccp. these guys have worked hard and have improved the gaming experience for us all, in fact perhaps ccp should be paying them for their hard work.

Haruki Tekitsu
Posted - 2011.06.20 12:06:00 - [1373]
 

I wasn't going to post but Im going to post in support of developers.
CCP you are a little Icelandic company with a small but so far loyal customer base. Do not get delusions of grandeur you are not Sony. Making a deal with Sony does not make you a world player on that scale.

Great news from, Me.
CCP you have just damaged yourself badly. You think we are children because we play your game? We as customers can quite simply stop and move on. Addiction factor does go away in a few days.
Now as a paying customer I want you here and now to answer the concerns about this matter. Swamped is not good enough an answer from a fee taking company.
As for misunderstandings in a document, OK here goes I didn't want to mention this but I am legally trained with higher English qualifications. I understood what you are trying to do quite well. That excuse will not wash with me.

Now was that great news to you? NO! It works both ways this great news game.


Goldnut Sachs
Posted - 2011.06.20 12:07:00 - [1374]
 

Originally by: Scarlet Vixen
Originally by: Gene Windstar


You do realize thats a complete load right?
Plex have already been paid for in real funds which amount to more than a quarterly subscription and the same as a monthly one, heck overall many people sub in 3 month or more intervals, making plexus more profitable for ccp. How in any way do they lose money when people fund with plex cards, heck even if these people made enough for a plex (which I might add most don't), the increased demand for them is overall a higher profit for ccp (again assuming they sub for at least 3 month blocks), and worse case they still have made the amount they would have if the person hadn't used a pled and it wasn't bought in the first place. Pled are not real money under any situation, they can be lost just like any other item, which if they do have a real cash value after redemption makes it legaly flaky for ccp to make them destroy on drop, essentualy voiding prepaid services. Are you suggesting my dread booster has cash value if a person buys it with a donation and sells it high to buy a plex?



Also, the isk is there one way or another as someone had to gain it, heck, miners can fund on plex with enough work, a CEO can use Corp tax to buy them, but somehow when it's related to donations it's real money?


The isk is there one way or another, and miners can fund plex with enough work, but weíre not talking about miners, weíre talking about someone buying plexes by selling a product or service.

And it isnít a complete load.

If pilot A creates an app and makes enough ISK to fund playing EVE through plexes for 12 months, thatís twelve months lost revenue from that pilot. Yes someone else bought the plex already, but if pilot A didnít sell his app perhaps he would have had to resort to paying for a regular subscription. Or he had to mine or rat to build up the isk to buy the plex, in either case those other two other methods didnít require the pilot to sit back and make money in the form of plexes while sitting back selling his commercial app.

It comes down to, pilot A created an app, pilot A sold that app or service, because of that pilot A either made money or made isk that was converted to money in the form of buying $15 plex. And even if s/he didnít buy plexes, CCP has to account for it occurring.




jesus.holy.christ. stop right there turn off your computer and stop thinking before you hurt yourself.


the treasurer
Posted - 2011.06.20 12:09:00 - [1375]
 

i'd like to add my voice to the chorus.

this idea seems to me soooooo crazy...

reflect CCP, reflect.

Katrina Cortez
Posted - 2011.06.20 12:40:00 - [1376]
 

Edited by: Katrina Cortez on 20/06/2011 12:49:37
Originally by: Mystarra
Anyone want to make bets on when they are going to announce that they are switching to an F2P structure?

Sorry to burst your F2P bubble but with in-game plex it already is.
The only thing keeping the Alt population in check is the cost associated with the accounts. If it went F2P then then they would have to create code to keep people from making a bazillion alt accounts.
So its not going to change anytime soon.

Vinny P
Posted - 2011.06.20 12:50:00 - [1377]
 

So basically the only 3rd party apps i dont see stunting/stopping the development of is going to be macro bots. Good work fellas! Laughing

Kerrisone
Posted - 2011.06.20 13:47:00 - [1378]
 

Originally by: Vinny P
So basically the only 3rd party apps i dont see stunting/stopping the development of is going to be macro bots. Good work fellas! Laughing


It won't have any effect on RMT or phishing sites either, you know just those pesky fans who contribute to the EVE IP by making the game playable and helping build the community.

Callean Drevus
Caldari
Icosahedron Crafts and Shipping
Silent Infinity
Posted - 2011.06.20 13:52:00 - [1379]
 

Edited by: Callean Drevus on 20/06/2011 14:00:50
Edited by: Callean Drevus on 20/06/2011 13:59:42
Originally by: Wahsigmar
Originally by: Zero Bit

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats




Strike?
Now I think know why Lolsec attacked...


This. It's called a Pre-emptive attack.

I know I wouldn't develop anymore if I would be charged for it.

Originally by: Goldnut Sachs
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats

now we need that in german and russian too


Sie aufladen menschen, die umsonst arbeiten, um ihren spiel besser zu machen asshats

My 2c (might not be completely correct, but the message should be clear)

Dyner
Minmatar
Midgard Protectorate
Posted - 2011.06.20 14:13:00 - [1380]
 

Originally by: Lord Googoo

Again... ISK ≠ Real world currency. Therefore, CCP shouldn't charge people real world currency for ISK obtained from creating apps or any other in-game services.


Not to mention it'd double dipping on the Plex

->~$15 To buy the PLEX
-> $99 to who ever exchanged service for that PLEX

Total PLEX price: $23.25 (15 + 8.25) [$99/12month = 8.25 per month]


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