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Z Shazih
Posted - 2011.06.19 08:08:00 - [1321]
 

Edited by: Z Shazih on 19/06/2011 08:35:09
hey CCP are you friggin blind?
unlike the anom nerfs
unlike the jb nerfs

we are all in agreement here, this is wrong and stupid,
respond or yall been taking classes from greyscale?

Originally by: Zero Bit
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats

Takaedeatchy
Caldari
Southern Cross Trilogy
Flying Dangerous
Posted - 2011.06.19 08:14:00 - [1322]
 

CCP if your going to screw us, how about a reach around at least?

Max Cooper
Posted - 2011.06.19 08:19:00 - [1323]
 

Originally by: Zero Bit

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Kronus Heilgar
Dark Orbit Media
Posted - 2011.06.19 09:05:00 - [1324]
 

Stop attributing that quote to "Zero Bit" you asshats, that was my line. HERE. See? That's MY intellectual property and according to CCP's rules, we gotta protect that $h!t!

Kandreath
Posted - 2011.06.19 09:09:00 - [1325]
 

Ok second post, - Aiming to be more constructive.

By now you should be under no illusion how the community feels about this. - It's 99% bad. Even considering that more angry people will always respond then happy people, this should give you a clear message.

Here is my proposal,
(A). For applications etc. that *request donations of ISK - allow a free licence but require registration.
(B). For Applications etc. that *require ISK to activate (beyond a trial period), then require a licence and registration paid by ISK.
(C). For applications that charge real money - Require real money license registration.
(D). For websites that aggregate Eve content and use advertising to cover costs, (Ie Not for profit) - Free licence and registration.

Overriding Philosophy:- Charge like for like - ignore donations of ISK and not for profits?
If the developer wants real money, then charge their *ss. - Allows them to make some cash and perhaps live the dream.
If the developer charges in-game money, then only change them in-game money.
If the developer is open to donation, then let it slide.

Please consider the following further:
The benefit of these tools that are offered for free or donation is huge.

I recently participated in the buddy program. The most important thing I did to keep my buddy afloat was refer him to a handful of websites, guides and out of game applications to get them started. The great thing about this is that they are all out there and easy to get hold of and use. Within about week of his trial he saw how huge the universe was and figured he wanted to sign up just to explore it. - A win for CCP.

For a noob who is trying to get a grip on the universe, these tools/web sites are invaluable. I remember when I started, I wouldn't have had a clue without Evemon, EveMaps and the various web site guides like item-drop, eve central and battle clinic. - I did have in-game buddies too but they weren't available all the time to answer all of my dumb questions.

You think you have a problem with retention of new players now? Cut half the tools that help new players and then see what happens. The benefit to retention of new and long term players is bigger than anything you will directly get through paid licensing of donation ware.


WhisperSilk
Posted - 2011.06.19 10:19:00 - [1326]
 

Well I wish to congradulate CCP, you have officially signed your death certificate!

I waited a few days to let it all soak in, but its still a WTF! I understand needing IP control, I don't understand self implosion. You really think because you got an exclusive deal with sony for Dust that your company is unkillable? Kill EVE, Dust dies!

Aside from all people like Chribba and others have done for your gaming community, and believe it or not your bottom line, the fact that you are trying to charge for information you have been giving away free for 8 years, makes me chuckle.

Now on to why I really replied, CCP ZULU, HOW CONDESENDING CAN YOU BE? Blow smoke up my ass sure, but to outritely call me illiterate... WTF! I know how to read English, you were kind enough to translate into Russian and German, and still, somehow, come to the conclusion I just misunderstood. No, you are the ones being ambiguous, you give us such general terms, and feel as though your really helping this community. Wanna help? Do your job!

None of this actually matters now, I have about 2 weeks left on my accounts before annual subsciption time... -2 accounts here. Oh and the python based, android app I was just producing for the fun of it, deleted! Its all ok though, I should prooly spend more time with the wife and kids anyhow, instead of on a half "working as intended game."

And to be honest, why would I as a dev. put any money into an API that gives extremely limited data? If I have to pay to develop your product, I'm not onboard anymore! To think I thought I was apart of this awesome community, run by a cool company! Whelp, reality check! Community cool, check, company not, check!

Good luck CCP! In my experience, this type of mistake in PR is irreversible.

Chertan
Posted - 2011.06.19 10:25:00 - [1327]
 

Originally by: Soddington Smythe
Congratulations on torturing the term 'Great News' to such a degree.
This is some strange new usage of the term with which I am unfamiliar.




+1 for that:)

On a more 'constructive' manner, how about sending that bizdev-team back to Sony?

Jovanna Poljus
Posted - 2011.06.19 12:26:00 - [1328]
 

Edited by: Jovanna Poljus on 19/06/2011 12:28:12
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats




this.

CCP, put down the ****ing crack pipe and listen to your community!

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
Stop attributing that quote to "Zero Bit" you asshats, that was my line. HERE. See? That's MY intellectual property and according to CCP's rules, we gotta protect that $h!t!


*edit, gotta protect teh IP's! (even if it means losing your customer base)

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.06.19 13:03:00 - [1329]
 

Originally by: HurryKane
Devs of EveMon and EFT should pull their apps right now. Eve is practically unplayable for new people without those two apps, they provide functionality that should've been built into the game. Let CCP deal with the *****ing.


I think that is exactly what CCP wants them to do. It's obvious to me that CCP wants to monetize every aspect of Eve. Now that they are requiring a fee for people who develop aspects of the game outside of the client rest assured that it will result in a mass exodus of good community developers and their applications with them. CCP can then swoop in and provide the exact same 'features' in game for Aurum.

The sad part is that we pay a fee to play this game. Now they want us to pay more. When the community developers leave, we will pay more because frankly, Eve is unplayable without external game apps to make up for the lack of game developer creativity.

I'll not pay CCP one cent more than I already do. Either directly or indirectly.

Emma Royd
Caldari
Maddled Gommerils
Posted - 2011.06.19 13:20:00 - [1330]
 

I've seen it all now, CCP profiteering from the people who help their players.

Here's a hint CCP, take the gun out of your holster next time before you pull the trigger - that way you might not shoot yourself in the foot again Rolling Eyes.

C'mon, it's a lousy 100 bucks a year, how much are you expecting to raise from this? I love evemon, evemeep, and many other programs that utilise the API, it makes my time in eve easier and more enjoyable.

The developers of these applications are mainly hobbyists, will more than likely have to pay for hosting, then it's only fair that they accept donations to help them cover their costs and encourage them to keep developing their software to keep up to date with the changes made in game.

insanebe
Caldari
draketrain
Posted - 2011.06.19 13:32:00 - [1331]
 

Originally by: Kandreath
Ok second post, - Aiming to be more constructive.

By now you should be under no illusion how the community feels about this. - It's 99% bad. Even considering that more angry people will always respond then happy people, this should give you a clear message.

Here is my proposal,
(A). For applications etc. that *request donations of ISK - allow a free licence but require registration.
(B). For Applications etc. that *require ISK to activate (beyond a trial period), then require a licence and registration paid by ISK.
(C). For applications that charge real money - Require real money license registration.
(D). For websites that aggregate Eve content and use advertising to cover costs, (Ie Not for profit) - Free licence and registration.

Overriding Philosophy:- Charge like for like - ignore donations of ISK and not for profits?
If the developer wants real money, then charge their *ss. - Allows them to make some cash and perhaps live the dream.
If the developer charges in-game money, then only change them in-game money.
If the developer is open to donation, then let it slide.

Please consider the following further:
The benefit of these tools that are offered for free or donation is huge.

I recently participated in the buddy program. The most important thing I did to keep my buddy afloat was refer him to a handful of websites, guides and out of game applications to get them started. The great thing about this is that they are all out there and easy to get hold of and use. Within about week of his trial he saw how huge the universe was and figured he wanted to sign up just to explore it. - A win for CCP.

For a noob who is trying to get a grip on the universe, these tools/web sites are invaluable. I remember when I started, I wouldn't have had a clue without Evemon, EveMaps and the various web site guides like item-drop, eve central and battle clinic. - I did have in-game buddies too but they weren't available all the time to answer all of my dumb questions.

You think you have a problem with retention of new players now? Cut half the tools that help new players and then see what happens. The benefit to retention of new and long term players is bigger than anything you will directly get through paid licensing of donation ware.




personally i think liscences should be granted on a volume base eg

300 api key liscence = free

300 to 2000 = $10 a year

2000 to 5000 = etc.etc.etc

that way you ensure the websites that don't get used that much or are just startingt out don't vanish

maslakob
Posted - 2011.06.19 13:38:00 - [1332]
 

what a ******ed idea. dont do this its suicide for you. Eve is hard enough to teach new people ... imagine if we didn't have EFT evemon eve central etc etc

Miharu Akachi
Posted - 2011.06.19 14:06:00 - [1333]
 

Dear CCP.

Did you think with your brain or what, You should hire a better finace team who want to make this a paid fee.
People who do this kind of service they are making your game better. And this is what you give them back??

"CCP Atlas has some great news for 3rd party developers "
You call this a great news? F**k off

The game is hard and u make it harder..




Nero Djin
Posted - 2011.06.19 15:19:00 - [1334]
 

The 3rd party apps are covering areas that you CCP are too lazy, inept or otherwise unable to do. Doing so they add tremendous value to your game.
I am totally fed up with the way you are treating valuable community members.
I was considering to resub for a year, but this thread really got me thinking.

You CCP not only have a completly selfish motif to do this, you also do not let anyone else check this document before release. You have a thing called the CSM you also have desk buddies, check before you post.
Also consider not giving thread posting privileges to every asshat programmer out there without a PR course and some actual experience in the field first.
The worst part: in the face of 32 pages of rage 1 dev manages to throw in some bull**** about how we misunderstand and how the wording in the original document is bad.

I demand an apology from ccp directed to the people who have made all these awesome 3rd party applications.
You also might want to include them in the process, how hard can it be? A mail from someone with ccp in their game name will get an answer.


TL:DR

quality control, do not publish ****.
lessons in pr for anyone who posts as ccp.
apology to 3rd party developers - ur 6 years employed employee at the ccp got paid for those 6 years. 6 years of 3rd party app development who did a lot of nice stuff for the community has a smaller screen then i do. HE DOES NOT GET PAID. but he does deserve RESPECT.

Terra Mikael
Horizon Dynamics
Posted - 2011.06.19 15:27:00 - [1335]
 

Dumbest idea I've heard in a long time.

3rd party apps make your half-@$$ed game playable. Without eft and evemon how many players are willing to set down in MS excel and hash it out?
Especially when features like long term skill plans and test-fitting should have been an integral part of the game.

I'll never understand how you guys do your little meetings and somehow unanimously decide that shooting yourself in the foot is somehow a good idea, but you seem to do it quite a lot.


Dyner
Minmatar
Midgard Protectorate
Posted - 2011.06.19 16:02:00 - [1336]
 

CCP still cowering in their castle as the angry mob pounds at the portcullis? Rolling Eyes

Maxizinian
Posted - 2011.06.19 17:27:00 - [1337]
 

Edited by: Maxizinian on 19/06/2011 17:28:57
I've got my pitchfork and have lit my torch. Where do we find CCP? Twisted Evil

CCP knew this idea wasn't going to be well received from the beginning. That's why they started it off, "CCP Atlas has some great news for 3rd party developers in his latest dev blog". Great news? For whom? They're trying to make it sound great because they think we're a bunch of mindless drone players.

CCP @ Daily Meeting: "Well, guys. As long as we say it's GREAT then they'll believe us".

Serkanay
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.19 17:40:00 - [1338]
 

I would like to protest the CCP

Shimokurasaka
Therapy.
The Fourth District
Posted - 2011.06.19 18:05:00 - [1339]
 

"Originally by: Zero Bit
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats"

Your logic is flawed ccp, and I hope with all my heart that you reverse this choice since it will punish this game with many lost subscriptions...

WeirdCulture
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.19 18:10:00 - [1340]
 

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats





KingHybrid
Posted - 2011.06.19 18:21:00 - [1341]
 

First micro transactions with the character stuff, and now this. CCP is trying to nickel and dime just like everyone else at this point.

Pathetic.

MacaMan
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.19 19:07:00 - [1342]
 

And nota single answer/statement/lie/whatever from ga(y)me masters on this topic.

Zero Bit
Posted - 2011.06.19 20:08:00 - [1343]
 

I'd appreciate this, too. I do not feel comfortable with this false reference.

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
Stop attributing that quote to "Zero Bit" you asshats, that was my line. HERE. See? That's MY intellectual property and according to CCP's rules, we gotta protect that $h!t!

Kronarn
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.19 21:01:00 - [1344]
 

Upon reading this post after the "Barbie and Ken" pay to dress up announcement for characters I was a little frustrated. All I've seen coming from the last few announcements from CCP is a little bit of greed to be honest, the company as a whole are trying to be like companies such as Apple inc (where as apple have a good reason for the licence as it's heavily maintained and a very high percentage of applications that use apples software/coding are not for apple services, ie facebook, google, groupon, twitter)

Why in the hell would you want to charge $99 to people who do nothing but help IMPROVE your software?

I for one are a developer and I already pay a licence fee to APPLE $99 a year, so basically it will cost me $196 to create an app for users to have available to them as a 3rd party option?

I'm pretty taken back by this suggestion. Also on the other side of the spectrum, you have to remember current and future developers take time out of eve game play to be able to create/develop and extend such applications/services, to which they currently pay $15 per account for which is $180 per YEAR for ONE account (do the maths for people who have multiple accounts, this is just plain greed).

So in the long run, you're asking your customers to pay $367 per year if they want to have one account and also be able to develop nice 3rd party applications/services for CCP's customers.

I understand CCP do release FREE updates throughout the year, but in all fairness, the releases are generally very buggy and some things have taken months and months to be fixed, yet you want to still charge customers full price for the monthly fee.

You need to understand fair business in my opinion, not one application or service that is provided by members for eve is a "fast creation" they take hours/days/months of developers time to create (which becomes lost time in game) to which is created to give your customers a better experience in game.

Most developers don't even make money from creations they say "Please donate isk in game" if you are happy with this etc, and I'm sure not many people do receive any decent donations that comes close to their time out of eve working on development.

Scarlet Vixen
Posted - 2011.06.19 21:28:00 - [1345]
 

Hey,

I don't see the big deal. I noticed some of you reference EFT and EVE Mon, those are NON-COMMERCIAL applications, meaning they pay nothing (as long as they stop asking for donations, or CCP changes the current agreement, but I could understand if they didn't, money is money regardless of where it comes from) they just have to agree to the terms for using the EVE licensed materials.

If you're running a corp site, or alliance site you can use the materials without need for a license as long as it's a private site, so you can keep running your kill boards, etc.

This is aimed at applications that do charge, like the Strategic Maps (which are great) and charge real money and EVE Commander that charges ISK. If you're going to create a commercial app and make money or isk (since isk translates into money these days by converting them to plex) it makes perfect sense and is very reasonable. CCP used to charge $100,000 a year + royalties, so this change is huge and will benefit a variety of developers.

I think it's great and I applaud CCP for making their licensing structure down to a level where it opens up the possibility to everyone, even a High School student can afford $99 a year when they're potentially going to make 10x or more on their app.

Xel Set
Posted - 2011.06.19 21:49:00 - [1346]
 

Originally by: CCP Zulu
Hello all.

At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Im impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.

There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.

It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).

Its obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.

Unfortunately that will take some time and were kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.

So what well do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.

As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.

Arnar Hrafn Gylfason
Senior Producer of EVE Online


Trying to control one's brand is one thing. Trying to control what buyers/players/customers/consumers do (quite legitimately) with your brand is something entirely different. These attempts at rgregious overreaching are becoming far more prevalent among brand owners, over the years, with game designers leading the pack. Basic failure to understand property rights and intellectual property rights, much less the significant distinctions between them, are in part to blame, not to mention simple imprudence.

Lord Googoo
Posted - 2011.06.19 21:52:00 - [1347]
 

Originally by: Scarlet Vixen
Hey,

I don't see the big deal. I noticed some of you reference EFT and EVE Mon, those are NON-COMMERCIAL applications, meaning they pay nothing (as long as they stop asking for donations, or CCP changes the current agreement, but I could understand if they didn't, money is money regardless of where it comes from) they just have to agree to the terms for using the EVE licensed materials.

If you're running a corp site, or alliance site you can use the materials without need for a license as long as it's a private site, so you can keep running your kill boards, etc.

This is aimed at applications that do charge, like the Strategic Maps (which are great) and charge real money and EVE Commander that charges ISK. If you're going to create a commercial app and make money or isk (since isk translates into money these days by converting them to plex) it makes perfect sense and is very reasonable. CCP used to charge $100,000 a year + royalties, so this change is huge and will benefit a variety of developers.

I think it's great and I applaud CCP for making their licensing structure down to a level where it opens up the possibility to everyone, even a High School student can afford $99 a year when they're potentially going to make 10x or more on their app.


After 45 pages of people explaining it, you really don't get it?

I agree, people who charge real world money for their apps/services need to pay for some sort of license as they are profiting off of CCP's IP.

However, ISK ≠ real world money. You can convert money to PLEX, which can be converted into ISK, but you cannot convert ISK into $$$$$ unless you RMT. There IS a difference between charging $ for services like Strategic Maps and charging ISK.

Crexa
Star Mandate
Posted - 2011.06.19 22:14:00 - [1348]
 

Edited by: Crexa on 19/06/2011 22:18:09
I posted in another thread about this, but i lost track of it. Anyway.

If your looking to monetize something, why not logos/decals for alliance/corps on the side of your ship? Or hash marks/stars/icons for number of kills in said ship.

These are things earned in EVE, but as a way to show those stats off or display your corp/alliiance pride, something that you can make money on. You also can dictate placement which reduces the "neon pink" ship which I think were all against.

Scarlet Vixen
Posted - 2011.06.19 22:25:00 - [1349]
 

Originally by: Lord Googoo
Originally by: Scarlet Vixen
Hey,

I don't see the big deal. I noticed some of you reference EFT and EVE Mon, those are NON-COMMERCIAL applications, meaning they pay nothing (as long as they stop asking for donations, or CCP changes the current agreement, but I could understand if they didn't, money is money regardless of where it comes from) they just have to agree to the terms for using the EVE licensed materials.

If you're running a corp site, or alliance site you can use the materials without need for a license as long as it's a private site, so you can keep running your kill boards, etc.

This is aimed at applications that do charge, like the Strategic Maps (which are great) and charge real money and EVE Commander that charges ISK. If you're going to create a commercial app and make money or isk (since isk translates into money these days by converting them to plex) it makes perfect sense and is very reasonable. CCP used to charge $100,000 a year + royalties, so this change is huge and will benefit a variety of developers.

I think it's great and I applaud CCP for making their licensing structure down to a level where it opens up the possibility to everyone, even a High School student can afford $99 a year when they're potentially going to make 10x or more on their app.


After 45 pages of people explaining it, you really don't get it?

I agree, people who charge real world money for their apps/services need to pay for some sort of license as they are profiting off of CCP's IP.

However, ISK ≠ real world money. You can convert money to PLEX, which can be converted into ISK, but you cannot convert ISK into $$$$$ unless you RMT. There IS a difference between charging $ for services like Strategic Maps and charging ISK.


But you can spend ISK to buy PLEX in order to pay for your account, which I would imagine for CCP translates into real-world-money. Whether you're spending $5 for an iPhone app to check your skills, or paying 350 million ISK to buy $15 dollers worth of game time, in the end it translates into or potentially into (but CCP has to be able to control both under one dynamic) real-world-money for the seller, who is benefiting from the transaction.

So no, ISK = Money for CCP if PLEX is involved. Just because someone else bought the PLEX, now the seller of the app is "buying" that plex of the original purchasers, it's still money. And since CCP can't tell if the seller is going to buy a PLEX with the ISK they've earned from ISK received from an app, then they'd have to charge everyone to keep it standardized and to potentially cover said scenario.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.06.19 22:57:00 - [1350]
 

Quote:

This is aimed at applications that do charge, like the Strategic Maps (which are great) and charge real money and EVE Commander that charges ISK. If you're going to create a commercial app and make money or isk (since isk translates into money these days by converting them to plex)



This is just terrible.
As former SW developer who worked with similar licenses, this makes no sense at all.

If I am in for the money, I can't care the less to get some lame PLEX.

Even in case I get paid, if I setup a business I need to cover 200+ euros of website cost a year, plus I will have to start a company (law enforces this) for 500 euros and expect > 40% of the income to be taxed plus > 700 euros every 3 months forcibly paid for pension.

Now let's guess how much of this you do by selling some lame "app" for such a ridicolously small playerbase made of students and PLEX grinders (= well different than rich Apple rich fat turkey customer base).


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