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Jimmy Astro
Posted - 2011.06.17 21:54:00 - [1231]
 

Originally by: Sleevedace
If people read the dev blog they'd see this licensing change is very clean and probably the most liberal commercial IP license in the history of software development.

Just ccp can't write a dev blog worth a ****, and half the people on this forum are illiterate in that regard.


So you are in favor of having to pay a fee for apps and player created efforts like EVEMon, EFT, Doltan Maps? Want to have to buy a membership to sites that offer intel on mission running? This sounds like a good idea?

I don't give a ****e about how clean it is ... it's a horrible idea, clean or dirty.

Laendra
Universalis Imperium
Posted - 2011.06.17 21:56:00 - [1232]
 

About 8 years too late, imho. Hopefully you won't wait so long to pull the trigger on future games.

FB Tuz
Posted - 2011.06.17 23:06:00 - [1233]
 

Never ever have I thought I would be posting in such a threadnaught... I can't understand how such a terrible idea could came up, even in a BizDev meeting, I can't understand how it got out of the meeting room, even as a draft, without being dismissed and laughed at, and I mostly can't understand how this Dev Blog could be published without anyone reviewing it at CCP realizing the insult it would be to the community.

As for the content, 1200+ posts have pretty much said it all, but maybe it should be said once more for CCP to learn to do things right (and I'm glad to quote the original poster, champion - in spite of himself - of this thread) :

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats




Now, put the draft where it belongs : in the dustbin, and start working on a real solution to monetizing 3rd party apps, because you're right, it's needed !

Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.06.17 23:08:00 - [1234]
 

Edited by: Alice Katsuko on 17/06/2011 23:08:54
Originally by: CCP Zulu
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.


There's nothing confusing about the devblog.

Quote:
Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?

Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.

Will website ads require a commercial license?

Yes, for ad-supported websites you will require a commercial license.

Will donations require a commercial license?

Yes, for donation supported websites you will require a commercial license.


You've stated here quite explicitly that you intend to charge nonprofit sites $99 even if any ad-based or donation revenue doesn't pay for even a fraction of hosting and development costs. That would include virtually every free EVE application which has a little "donate" button, as well as virtually every alliance forum and website which has an API-based verification system. If that's not what CCP as a company intended to say, then perhaps you need to proofread dev-blogs more thoroughly.

Originally by: CCP Zulu
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).

Because charging folk, who pay out of pocket to provide services which make this game much more playable and which provide functions which any competent developer would have incorporated into the game years ago, clearly encourages third-party development. As has been pointed out repeatedly, if you simply want to control your IP, charging a nominal $1 fee unless the application developer commercializes their program [like the old Capsuleer] would have been enough. This idea could only have been dreamed up by some idiot MBA who has never touched EVE in his life and who wants to make it look like he contributed to the bottom line.

Originally by: CCP Zulu
Its obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.

CCP hasn't had a very good track record of reviewing or iterating. Half the game resembles abandonware. Most of us have seen plenty of empty promises to iterate on this or that broken or incomplete feature. In all honesty, I expect little more than to find that entire failure of an attempt to squeeze a profit from app developers to be shoved down our throats within the next few months.

Originally by: CCP Zulu
Unfortunately that will take some time and were kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.

If you're too busy to properly review ideas before making them public, then don't make them public.

In short, requiring for-profit developers who charge for their EVE apps to pay a $99 fee makes sense. Charging nonprofit developers who get small donations $99 makes absolutely no sense, especially if you really don't intend to profit from this.

Little Fistter
Caldari
Ordo Rosa Crux Templaris
Posted - 2011.06.17 23:30:00 - [1235]
 

Skimming the 42 pages of whineing by players, I am ashamed of us! How spoiled are you? What, you live in your mom's basement and haven't had a job all year? You are so coddled by your parents that you have no idea of what fair treatment in the commercial world is about?

Most companies would sell a commercial API license for over ten thousand euros. No one in the industry is giving it away for under a thousand!

And you beetch and moan over a $99 commercial license?

You obviously do not understand the value of this license, or you have a very selfish attitude to your efforts.

Guys, I honestly can not think of how to convey my loss of esteem for you all as a group, to take a gift (which this offer genuinely is!) and to complain about it, you have no clue what the value of IP is.

try this: Go ask Microsoft for a Live account so you can sell an add-on for say Halo, or God of War. Call Sony and ask them how much to use their API for StarWars Galaxies... or try Nintendo, see what a "Rachet and Clank" API license would cost.

CCP is making an honest attempt to break throu the industry with the fairest deal ever, and you dissing that offer is foolish and shortsighted!

Grow up!Twisted Evil

darmwand
Blood Money Dark Angels
Posted - 2011.06.17 23:39:00 - [1236]
 

Learn to read. This is about non-commercial software and websites.

Salene Gralois
K-2
Posted - 2011.06.18 00:04:00 - [1237]
 

Edited by: Salene Gralois on 18/06/2011 00:05:06
Edited by: Salene Gralois on 18/06/2011 00:04:36
Originally by: Little Fistter
Skimming the 42 pages of whineing by players, I am ashamed of us! How spoiled are you? What, you live in your mom's basement and haven't had a job all year? You are so coddled by your parents that you have no idea of what fair treatment in the commercial world is about?



Fine. I'll bite. I'm a senior dev. Companies that dwarf CCP use the services I've built and in my spare time i like to toy with the API to make eve less of a bore.

Originally by: Little Fistter

Most companies would sell a commercial API license for over ten thousand euros. No one in the industry is giving it away for under a thousand!

And you beetch and moan over a $99 commercial license?



Yes. Because ccp does not allow you to charge real currency. I don't want to either.


Originally by: Little Fistter

You obviously do not understand the value of this license, or you have a very selfish attitude to your efforts.



It has no value. There is only crap and incomplete documentation. There is no guarantee of usability. There is no roadmap for future development other than the sparse blog.
They offer no support on the API because it is provided AS-IS.

Originally by: Little Fistter

Guys, I honestly can not think of how to convey my loss of esteem for you all as a group, to take a gift (which this offer genuinely is!) and to complain about it, you have no clue what the value of IP is.

try this: Go ask Microsoft for a Live account so you can sell an add-on for say Halo, or God of War. Call Sony and ask them how much to use their API for StarWars Galaxies... or try Nintendo, see what a "Rachet and Clank" API license would cost.

CCP is making an honest attempt to break throu the industry with the fairest deal ever, and you dissing that offer is foolish and shortsighted!

Grow up!Twisted Evil



Will I be able to charge real life currency for in game services?
No, the commercial license does not allow you to charge real life money for any in-game services.


Please, have a clue.

Dyner
Minmatar
Midgard Protectorate
Posted - 2011.06.18 00:08:00 - [1238]
 

Originally by: darmwand
Learn to read. This is about non-commercial software and websites.


Don't bother; some one will always been in favor of bad ideas...hell in America there's tards that are FOR the removal of the First Amendment (aka freedom of speech).

Philip Richardson
Depthstrike Industries
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
Posted - 2011.06.18 00:10:00 - [1239]
 

Little Fistter, the big thing you missed in the 42 pages of posts is on page 6.

People who do not charge for access to what they're producing and instead merely run low-income ads or accept donations of isk or rl money are getting charged this $99.

In that case, those people are adding $99/year to their bills for providing the products/services (such as eve-files and eve-search) for free. That's an additional $99/year that they have to spend in addition to domain registration and server hosting that has to be covered out of pocket. Ads barely pay for domain registration in some cases. Eve-metrics, while it was up, only pulled in about $160 in donations and didn't run ads.

Many of these people are lucky to get $20/year out of their advertizing, and they already have to pay over $100/year OUT OF POCKET in servers (more like $100+/month for sites like eve-files due to needing full dedicated servers). The original iteration of the license would add another $99/year to that.

Seriously, commercial ventures (like paid-for apps) are fine to charge the $99/year for the license. VOLUNTARY donation based or ad-supported, not fine, as the donations and ads do NOT pay enough to pay for the license.

SaschaS
Posted - 2011.06.18 00:12:00 - [1240]
 

Quote:
This is a pretty simple program and hopefully it will help you convincing your significant other that developing applications for a space game until 3am in the morning is a good idea.


...uhm...

Commercial software developers needs to work from home and explain "significant other" about working at nite when it is possible from office?
Commercial developers need to explain "significant other" that they do it to earn money?
Ads (which may regards too free webspace that no commecrial offer would have) are one reason for a commercial license.
Annother reason for a commercial license are "Donations" which is a usual way to receive anything as inty developer...

sorry that is a NON FREE INTY + commercial license agreement, so you slap anyone who develops in freetime that MAY receive donations right into his/her face.
Thats a bad deal!
Many websits with just ads from their hosts should pay money wether for the webspace or for the license, this will result additional costs for your customers by using websites that make things easier wich ccp does not offer.

Anyway currently there is NO Service or website that is not downloadable by websites without ads, has no ads and or does not has an option for donations, please name one that does not belong to a corp or ally.

Maximus Trollus
Amarr
The Village Idiots
Posted - 2011.06.18 00:13:00 - [1241]
 

Originally by: Little Fistter
tween wave

Riyal
Chode Extravaganza
Posted - 2011.06.18 00:26:00 - [1242]
 

I have to feel sorry for the 3rd party developers, they make playing eve a much more enjoyable experience.

If i wanted to manufacture something in game (and not lose isk) the first thing i'd do is minimize the game and load up a spreadsheet. Another good example is trying to figure out a ship fit without using a 3rd party fitting program.

Many aspects of eve are barely playable without the aid of 3rd party tools.

This seems like such a misguided direction for CCP.

Dyner
Minmatar
Midgard Protectorate
Posted - 2011.06.18 00:36:00 - [1243]
 

Originally by: Riyal
I have to feel sorry for the 3rd party developers, they make playing eve a much more enjoyable experience.

If i wanted to manufacture something in game (and not lose isk) the first thing i'd do is minimize the game and load up a spreadsheet. Another good example is trying to figure out a ship fit without using a 3rd party fitting program.

Many aspects of eve are barely playable without the aid of 3rd party tools.

This seems like such a misguided direction for CCP.


ROFL, ya like my maelstrom had something like 400dps because I was using T2 ammo and not Republic Fleet Plasma rounds (~732dps). If it wasn't for places like Battleclinic and EVEHQ I might as well be flying a Reaper Laughing.

Oh and I'd still be training some of the skills to fly that maelstrom because my attribute distribution was 'evenly' spread from way back in '06 when I started and had no freakin clue what to max/min. Thanks again EVEHQ!

OR, the many times before EVEMON that my character sat with NO TRAINING because I didn't religiously login to check in on the game.

And Today with Aura (android app). I'd still have times where I didn't have anything training.

Vikarion
Caldari
State Trade Consortium
Posted - 2011.06.18 00:40:00 - [1244]
 

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats




Seriously, isn't there anyone at CCP who realized that charging people to develop free apps for Eve is a Bad Idea? Anyone?

For monetized apps? Sure, that's a great idea. But for killboards, Evemon, EFT...

...this is insane. Just insane.

EnslaverOfMinmatar
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.18 00:46:00 - [1245]
 

Originally by: Zero Bit
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats




Ptraci
Posted - 2011.06.18 01:55:00 - [1246]
 

Originally by: Vikarion
But for killboards, Evemon, EFT...

...this is insane. Just insane.


Not to mention things like killboards would be covered under fair use laws and not a copyright violation in any sense. CCP can't stop anyone from writing about what you did with your "Rifter" any more than Kimberly-Clark can prevent you from telling people that you wiped your backside with "Scott" toilet paper. The real argument is how much CCP hf. is going to pay for all the free advertising these 3rd party websites have been giving them for all these years.

Soxhlet
Posted - 2011.06.18 01:59:00 - [1247]
 

The idea to JUST NOW monetize API access seems ridiculous after waiting for third parties to produce value added content that makes your game better both in game play and in planning. Monetization will stifle 3rd development; instead consider the coding and expenses YOU don't have to deal with because someone else is taking the time to make the player experience better.

Jadechimera
Posted - 2011.06.18 02:53:00 - [1248]
 

[Just one more person who says "no" to these changes.]

Abraxus Lazzurs
Posted - 2011.06.18 03:39:00 - [1249]
 

Adding another point on to my post which is probably lost in the red haze that is the past 42 pages. I'd even be ok with it, if there was an apps store where apps are uploaded after careful scrutiny by CCP and priced at a single cost of 1 - 2.

CCP takes 10-20% from this and everyone's happy as CCP would earn a cheeky wee penny for their IP, the developer whos pretty much done all the work for it would get compensated and the community wouldn't have to worry about continually forking out money for what are technically non-essential pieces of software. This could be altered by switching this cost to an equivalent ISK value from in-game, or done through account management would automagically remove the ISK from the characters' wallet.

Hell, there's even the method that a lot of Anti-Virus companies use...Allow users to download a version of the software for free, but have it use the previous update rather than the most recent...So those that want to get the more comprehensive version can and those that don't at least get left with something.

An Apps page on the EVE site is a good idea, but charging developers to fork out that amount is a death blow to 3rd party apps, esp if they're not making any real life money outta it themselves. There are better ways, so sit down have a beer, chill and think about it. Hell if you're really struggling hire me with my shiny new post grad! :P

Si'Andregal Grungolash
Posted - 2011.06.18 03:49:00 - [1250]
 

Edited by: Si''Andregal Grungolash on 18/06/2011 03:53:47
CCP, you must have lost your ****ing minds.
What on earth is going on up there in CCP land?

It's nice to see you all completely abandon everything that has been done to make EVE great,
the community probably contributes more to the enhancing the experience of eve than you have.

Si'Andregal Grungolash
Posted - 2011.06.18 04:27:00 - [1251]
 

DOES ANYTHING MAKE ANY BLOODY SENSE TO YOU ANYMORE CCP?

Mars Theran
Caldari
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.18 04:32:00 - [1252]
 

Originally by: Qoi
Quote:
Ad revenue and ISK payments should really, really NOT require a 99$/year license.
Everything else, sure, why not.
But not those two.




I tend to agree on the point that anything generating ad revenue as per CCP's requirements, (using adsense to block RMT sites), isn't really under the purvey of this program, and provided services rendered for ISK payments don't result an impressive level of ISK profit, (such as paying for an accounts for the next 10 years in a few months), they don't really fall under the purvey of this program either.

I think an exception to this would be online gambling sites intended to interact with EVE and use ISK, which profit their owners through these transactions. Sites which would not qualify would be Battleclinic for example, or EVE Service Corp Killboard hosting, which despite having an impressive level of ISK revenue, have returned that ISK to some of the playerbase through lotteries.

Perhaps services which return ISK to the playerbase by similar means, should recieve a credit against their actual ISK earnings. I don't believe gambling sites count, given they have a very high ISK turnover, which is precisely why they should be subject to this licensing. That may seem odd, but there is a difference between taking donations and fees for a supplied service, and rolling ISK over in a gambling casino.

Free licensing should still be required for all services.

Just my 2 ISK.

Killajoules
Navy of Xoc
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2011.06.18 05:34:00 - [1253]
 

This is not great news.

I am against this whole idea

Killadicter
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.18 05:39:00 - [1254]
 

"You are charging people who work for free to make your game better"

I second this, it is a very bad idea.

All licenses to be free if they're needed. & monitize if you want, but please dnt charge the developers.

Dacro Insigna
Caldari
Sons of Erebus
Posted - 2011.06.18 05:45:00 - [1255]
 

Yeah, no thanks. +1 to this being a horrific idea.

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2011.06.18 06:19:00 - [1256]
 

Edited by: Drake Draconis on 18/06/2011 06:19:48
This is the first time I've ever seen an CPP announcement where the following occurred:

1: No CSM [positive] feedback
2: No Chribba
3: No one has said one positive thing about this whole affair (those in FAVOR) of this little spiel. (And even the Trolls are silent...too busy going WTF?)
4: EVERYONE....and I mean EVERYONE has voted AGAINST this change. Usually there's a few here and there but seriously... every damn post?

And I've been playing this game for 2 years plus now.

This....this is bad.

CCP... you've seriously ****ed yourselves this time.

And I'm not in favor of this whole crap affair either.
The worst thing any company can do to themselves is start to get greedy... one of the things that makes this game great...is the ability to provide gamer support through the use of open source apps or 3rd party apps.

So now we have to pay even more...for something that a dev. couldn't afford to make either.
Kiss killboards goodbye...kiss api apps goodbye.

Hell...at that rate...why the hell should I pay for a game where they give the gamers the finger when it comes to things like that?

Your days are numbered CCP...count on it.

I suggest you reverse this little proposal of yours or make a compromise.

TharOkha
Posted - 2011.06.18 06:33:00 - [1257]
 

bye bye EFT Crying or Very sad

Asora Sun
Posted - 2011.06.18 06:56:00 - [1258]
 

Originally by: Zero Bit

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Gameboy4ever
Posted - 2011.06.18 07:07:00 - [1259]
 

Yeah, really do not want to have to pay to use eve fitting tool and eve-mon and such other applications. If I or anyone else wanted to pay we would have donated, but obviously no one ever does.
Anyways, my vote is for not having to pay for the apps please don't do it CCP. ;)

Aroenn Annages
Posted - 2011.06.18 07:10:00 - [1260]
 

hmm not enough $ from boots buing plex??

try doing somthing good for eve comunity and dont do it !


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