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Innominate
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:58:00 - [91]
 

Edited by: Innominate on 15/06/2011 17:59:39

A couple questions:
How does this work with open-source applications?

Hypothetical: I'm a poor developer looking to release some useful tool for eve. I can't afford proper hosting and so I use a host that displays ads.
How does this work out?

Do you guys at CCP have any idea how reliant your game is on 3rd party applications and tools? Evemon, Fitting tools, map tools, killboards, asset trackers, etc. Virtually all of it created and maintained in some developers spare time. Much of which is all but required to play eve. We're lucky these programs exist, and now you're going to try charging them $100 a year for the privilege of helping to make eve playable?








stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:59:00 - [92]
 

<space_vampires>

I blame White Wolf. They probably placed some onus on CCP to monetize the 3rd party app steam for WoD in order to create a legal framework to make it easier for White Wolf to control and protect White Wolf's IP.

And we get to test the system out in "Eve: The WoD Beta."

</space_vampires>

woddel
Gallente
Canis Industries Ltd
Avaricious Cartel
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:59:00 - [93]
 

Quote:
Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?

Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.


hello CCP

i sure understand you trying to monetize from all possible aspects of eve. but taking it from the hard working developer community is harsh. they do most work for free or for drops of isk to serve to community - now they need to pay for not getting paid?

on my side, i run eve commander, a rather large site with more than 8'000 registered users. it takes a dedicated server costing more than 1500 euros, it cost hundreds of euros for software and licenses and running cost in the data center. off that, i earn a few billion isk a year in non monetary in-game currency that gets me a pixelship like a nyx or so.

i certainly will NOT pay for providing a service to the community that is highly in deficit concerning real life assets and earning me breadcrumbs of a virtual currency.

if this ruling comes into action, i can promise you this:

IT WILL BE THE END OF EVE COMMANDER - i would shut down the platform.

even if it hurts me to tears, you must understand that my love for the game and the community is large, but not endless.

woddel

Akira Zendragon
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:00:00 - [94]
 

SRSLY!?

It's cool that it provides a solution for Capsuleer et al. to sell the apps on the App Store, or for developers of other applications to sell them if they want to get paid for the time they invested in making the app.

But $99/yr to be able to accept ISK donations/subscriptions/payments is utterly ridiculous. Especially for accepting ISK donations while providing useful services to the community. Let's face it... there are players out there that have given a lot of their time to the community, and CCP owes them big time for their contributions.

Methinks someone at CCP has been sniffing geothermal plumes too often...

Yeep
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:00:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Abecbu
This is good news. It means Capsuleer can be a $0.99 app on the marketplace and make back the CCP and Apple fee instead of just paying the Apple fee out of pocket.



So its ok to screw over literally every single Eve related open source project currently being worked on because of one iPhone app?

Seriously, the lack of thought that has gone into this is astounding. EveMon is open source, do they require one license per developer, one per website? What about open source killboards? Do you need one license per customer that deploys your code? What about ones who don't use adverts? Does every single corporation website that uses the api now have to remove all references to eve online from every public facing page? What about eve wiki or the goonfleet wiki? Those use CCP and Eve branding, do they have to put all their information behind a paywall now?

How about if I don't charge for my app but someone sends me an unsolicited donation (in isk or real money)? Does a bill for $99 appear on my doorstep unless I send it back? And the idea that a $99 fee is trivial is completely laughable. When I was developing for Goonfleet back in 2005 as a student I sure as **** didn't have that kind of money to spare. Hell, chances are it'll be 99 by the time CCP applies their rather skewed exchange rate to it.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:01:00 - [96]
 

The really bad thing is that you need to pay $99 even if you do not earn a single cent! It is enough that someone gives you in-game money and you have to pay $99 per year?


Huuuu??!


That must be some sort of joke, right?

handige harrie
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:02:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: handige harrie on 15/06/2011 18:06:29
I also embed youtube EVE pvp videos, with a image of the EVE logo and a clicky link on my facebook page to a wordpress blog. Who has to pay the license now? me, facebook, wordpress(google) or youtube? One of those 4 entity's isn't making money of EVE, the rest has to pay a commercial license?

This license thing is so not worked out properly, it hurts my brain :-x


Also, what happens when people don't accept your new license and just continue with running stuff the way it was? Forcing people to do something over the Internet never went well...

I can just see game sites and blogs enjoying the battle of CCP vs. People who try to make the game better, but getting sued instead.

Jimmae
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:03:00 - [98]
 

Really bad idea for all the reasons mentioned already.

I only have one more thing to add: Fire the person who came up with it. He is hurting your company and your business model.

Regards,
Jimmae

Unsubbed Account PlaceHolder
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:03:00 - [99]
 

meh

Mac Aoidh
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:04:00 - [100]
 

Huge face palm for just resubbing yesterday. Don't worry CCP, it won't happen again.

Alpheias
Euphoria Released
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:05:00 - [101]
 

CCP, don't bite the hand that feeds you. You need us more than we need you.

Kronus Heilgar
Dark Orbit Media
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:05:00 - [102]
 

Edited by: Kronus Heilgar on 15/06/2011 18:42:57
Edited by: Kronus Heilgar on 15/06/2011 18:09:30
EDIT: when I first started writing this post there were only 8 posts before it. Now that I've submitted it it's on the 4th page. This means that a lot of what I say here has already been said, but it also highlights the fact that EVERYONE HATES YOUR IDEA!!!

EDIT #2: Thank you to all the posters below who, within 10 minutes of my original post, managed to quote my red rage text over 10 times. I think it really helps to get the point across.

Bad call ump. In a single move of greed and desire for milking just a little more out of the game, you just obliterated the 3rd party community.

A couple points:

Arrow First rule of lawmaking: don't ever make a rule that you can't enforce.
Quote:
Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license
So you're telling me that you're going to try and make sure that every single player in EVE who does any graphics development and might use an image from the Eve image server pays you your $99? lolfail

Arrow Where do you draw the line? Nearly every well organized corp in the game has some sort of database that links with the API for member tracking, and usually used for determining mining/salvaging payouts. These corps take a cut of the money their members bring in through mining/salvaging/missioning so technically they're accepting ISK payment for their services (which use the API); are you going to make every corporation that builds a system like this buy a commercial licence?

Arrow
Quote:
CCP does not offer formal technical support to developers or warrant the API in any way. It's provided as is.
Ok yeah I see, so let's charge for a service but deny all liability that it actually has to WORK in the future. Well done.

Arrow Let's talk about community projects. We have countless services that are open source projects that have an entire community contributing to them (e.g. EVEMon). Many of these accept RL money donations to help keep things running. Who should be responsible for paying for a license for these? Or should you try and get everyone who contributes to throw in $1?

I'd just like to take this moment to state in a very clear manner what it is you are doing here:
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats

Now to be clear, I completely agree with this idea for services that charge RL money and are looking to make profit$$$. But for free applications that require donations to cover server costs and kids who want to flex their programming muscles to try and make an in-game buck without countless hours of mind-numbing missioning, this is a **** move. If you're dedicated to this ridiculous idea, why $99? Even Apple only charges $99 for its developer license, and let me tell you, you can make a hell of a lot more money through a good app on the iPhone/iPad App Store than you can through a good app in EVE.

I think the problem here is that what you don't realize is the people who can afford to go to the Fanfest round tables and discuss these things are the people who don't care about shelling out another $99/year for an internet spaceship game. Next time, try talking to the average people who actually build most of these things and get the opinion of the realistic clients.

Sarina Berghil
Minmatar
New Zion Judge Advocate
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:09:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.

Innominate
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:10:00 - [104]
 

Edited by: Innominate on 15/06/2011 18:14:24
Originally by: Alpheias
CCP, don't bite the hand that feeds you. You need us more than we need you.


This pretty much sums up 3rd party app development in eve.

also:
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Bruce Svedker
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:11:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.


And again, just because they seemed to not realize the problem until about 15 pages of forum rage after. (The IW Scorp MT crap).

Pesadel0
the muppets
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:12:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.

Myra2007
Millstone Industries
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:13:00 - [107]
 

So you're going to rip off the people who helped making eve what it is? Where do you think CCP would be today if it weren't for the thousands of manhours put into third party apps/fansites that provide basic functionality still not supported by your game? I personally would probably have quit right away if it weren't for things like evemon and third party documentation for your software!

Charging people who try to make real money with eve services is one thing. Charging people who provide content in exchange for isk (or even only donations) is a **** move. It shows the people who thought this up don't understand the eve community. Don't understand anything. Shame on you. Shame on you. May your game die a terrible death in the foreseeable future you mighty pricks.

ViRUS Pottage
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:13:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.

Winterblink
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:13:00 - [109]
 

As a person who runs a site which deals with opinions of the game (podcast, comic, blog, etc.) I'm very, very interested in how this license might attempt to restrict my and my guests' ability to continue openly expressing my opinion.

I don't accept ads or money for what I do, but if that free non-com license tries to tell me what I can and can't say about the game or CCP, then I have some serious concerns.

Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:13:00 - [110]
 

Who wants to bet they want a 99$ fee from Chribba for every one of the sites he hosts?

I'll say it again

F*** everything about this.

Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:13:00 - [111]
 

For paid apps on different markets it's fine, but for services that make revenue in ISK, have to agree this move is an outright bad one.

i hatechosingnames
Gallente
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:14:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.

Duvida
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:15:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Innominate
Edited by: Innominate on 15/06/2011 17:59:39

A couple questions:
How does this work with open-source applications?

Hypothetical: I'm a poor developer looking to release some useful tool for eve. I can't afford proper hosting and so I use a host that displays ads.
How does this work out?

Do you guys at CCP have any idea how reliant your game is on 3rd party applications and tools? Evemon, Fitting tools, map tools, killboards, asset trackers, etc. Virtually all of it created and maintained in some developers spare time. Much of which is all but required to play eve. We're lucky these programs exist, and now you're going to try charging them $100 a year for the privilege of helping to make eve playable?










I'd say "In before Chribba", but I haven't seen him in 4 pages of this. This is a little worrisome.

Just to reemphazise what has been said. CCP, these people have worked for free to improve EVE. Their free work has been responsible for who-knows-how-big a percentage of your subscriber base remaining with EVE. Charging them for the free, very productive work they've done is decidedly wrong. CCP Hillmar, please consider your userbase.

NoobPwn
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:15:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: ViRUS Pottage
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.


+1

Mac Aoidh
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:15:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.


^^What he said.

Tiny Chesticles
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:15:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.

mistersparky
Estrale Frontiers
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:16:00 - [117]
 

How the hell is this great news for 3rd party developers?! What a load of rubbish.

Abramul
Gallente
StarFleet Enterprises
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:16:00 - [118]
 

Any chance of offering third-party sites (and maybe some applications, for instance TS or Vent) hosting for PLEX/Aurum, with exact amount scaled to resource usage rather than a flat fee? This would allow small sites to operate without having to request cash donations or use ads, and you could probably even set it up so that users could apply Aurum towards a site's hosting without the option for it turning a profit. And, of course, you could set the amounts so that you're making a modest profit even though hosting isn't your primary business.

BetsyAnn Tractorfarmer
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:16:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.

xHjfx
Minmatar
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:17:00 - [120]
 

I fail to see the correlation between the article and this being a "Good deal" or "Great news"

In fact I'd say it was terrible news


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