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shadowace00007
Amarr
Beyond The Gates
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:24:00 - [871]
 

Originally by: marinko26210
Originally by: Ivanna Nuke
Originally by: Noname Nonfactor
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats








I could not have said it better myself.

Kasimir Deadalus
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:27:00 - [872]
 

CCP reached the next Level in "milking the Cow"

Vigoth Ritic
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:29:00 - [873]
 

GREED !!!!, I bet SONY is making them do this..ccp has sold out !

Stromgren
Amarr
Forcas armadas
Moon Warriors
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:29:00 - [874]
 

Bad move CCP, very bad move.

I'm playing this game for 8 years now (yes this char make 8 years today) and this "license need" is by far the most greed things that i see in all this years.

Charge people that are improving your game for free arent a smart business decision.

Stromgren

Fredas Malente
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:35:00 - [875]
 

Edited by: Fredas Malente on 16/06/2011 13:02:52
Charging people you are; work for free to make your game better they do.
Asshats you are. </yoda>

Ok CCP, so I'm pretty sure your intention here is a good one one. You want to allow monetisation of certain apps and things in specific ways, which is neat.
Possibly even allowing people to use the EVE license or API in ways that would be unthought of now.. $99 is probably too much for that considering the lack of support you offer on your side, but I'll leave that for now.

..unfortunately the ridiculous "legal slippery slope" argument that implies that ads and a donation button on a website is in some way equal to actually charging for an app has turned this topic into a complete laughing stock.

Coupled with that there's the ambiguity in the devlog that seems to imply that this could be applied to practically anyone or any fansite, whose usage of your IP in many countries laws would come under some form of fair use clause.

CCP, you NEED to quickly come out with some specifics, clarifications and reversals to what has been said in your devlog.

  • Please CCP, clarify that you have no intention of charging Chribba, EveMon, EFT, or in fact any of these guys for doing what they are doing right now.

  • Point out that the intention of a licensing charge is to allow people to do things or charge for things that they currently are not allowed to do, and not to charge developers for the right to do what they currently are doing.

  • Listen to developers who are pointing out that even if they were to want to try monetising their creations, $99 is FAR too high a charge considering the lack of support or service CCP is offering in return.

  • And most importantly, backpedal completely on your classification of donation supported, ad supported or isk supported things as being "commercial".

Fractal Muse
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:38:00 - [876]
 

To think, I thought it was reasonable and then I read this.

The only aspect that I scratched my head at and I hope they revisit (change) is charging the license fee for in-game only services for ISK. That doesn't make sense to me. But, I can see how that would come out of a meeting.

The rest: $99 / year licensing fee to be able to charge for an app? That's a great deal. I guess since I've worked at a different end of the technology spectrum that deals with licensing and APIs I'm far too used to seeing fees into their thousands.

If your app is totally free then there is no charge.

That, to me, is reasonable and appropriate. I'm not sure why so many people are upset by that.

Hecate Lionfire
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:41:00 - [877]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Macsadbro
My god people. You guy's do know that there are Apps out there that have been waiting for something like this right? Who knows, Capsuleer may come back! (not that i will benefit from that, i lost my ipod ;(


Remember: STOP, THINK, OBSERVE, PLAN, and only then, act.

Read the devblog. Read it again with this in mind: there are services already running out there which are "free" but ad-supported. They generate revenue through advertising. These "free" services will have to find extra revenue to pay for the $99/yr licence since they generate a few tens of dollars a year from advertising.

That is what the ruckus is about.

We are raising a ruckus because we want to make sure that CCP gets the message: the current format of the conditions means that CCP will be charging third party developers for the work that those developers are doing for free to make the EVE Online community the wonderful thing it is.


WisdomPanda
Goatriders Horde
The Scapegoats
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:44:00 - [878]
 

I can understand where CCP is coming from in regards to wanting to clean up the 3rd party development scene. The water surrounding services or development for isk/money is murky at best. It's over due a solid rework, despite what the clowns are QQ'ing about.

I would suggest a KISS approach to both the structure and explanation;


  • Commercial License - You may use the EVE API and IP to gain a commercial (real world) revenue (aka "make money" off it), for a fee. (regardless of how it's generated)

  • Free license - You may use the EVE API and IP to gain ISK revenue, or for free ventures.



My advice if you are going to charge anything over a token amount (like $0.10) is to make sure the customer gets value for money. For example, would a real API website be so much to ask for? Sad
(More of that, less of this.)

As for the fee amount... for a year, assuming I was trying to make irl iskies off it, or if it gave me access to some extra goodies/tools, I'd say it is fair at $99. But I'd definitely want something for it, instead of just an almost worthless license. Confused

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:44:00 - [879]
 

Originally by: Fractal Muse
If your app is totally free then there is no charge.

That, to me, is reasonable and appropriate. I'm not sure why so many people are upset by that.


If your app is ad-supported and makes a hundred dollars a year which helps offset your two-hundred per year hosting costs, the $99/yr licence fee will wipe out any benefit you got from the advertising.

This is not the Apple App Store. These developers do not have millions of cashed-up teenagers looking to spend money on something new. The maximum market is 300 thousand (assuming that every subscribed account belongs to a unique player), and these are people who pass their time playing computer games instead of going to the theatre or having coffees at expensive cafés.

So perhaps you are too used to the world where licensing fees are in the thousands, because the expected revenue is in the millions?

Lukas Rox
Torchwood Archive
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:45:00 - [880]
 

Originally by: Fractal Muse
To think, I thought it was reasonable and then I read this.

The only aspect that I scratched my head at and I hope they revisit (change) is charging the license fee for in-game only services for ISK. That doesn't make sense to me. But, I can see how that would come out of a meeting.

The rest: $99 / year licensing fee to be able to charge for an app? That's a great deal. I guess since I've worked at a different end of the technology spectrum that deals with licensing and APIs I'm far too used to seeing fees into their thousands.

If your app is totally free then there is no charge.

That, to me, is reasonable and appropriate. I'm not sure why so many people are upset by that.


Wrong, if you deploy a free app on a website with ADS you have to pay the fee. If your app is a website and you run ADS on it, you have to pay the fee. The problem with ADS is they rarely make enough money to cover the running costs.

Khira Kitamatsu
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:45:00 - [881]
 

Well if this goes through the Android app we were working on(similar to battleclinic's loadout builder) for Android phone users will not get finished. We had no intentions of charging anyone but would have liked to have asked for donations to off-set the hours of work put into the development of the app.

It is really cool app. As you load in the different modules like for weapons and what type of ammo you would use it takes into account your gunnery skills you pre-loaded into the app, and then calculate the damage output for the gun. Same for missiles, etc, etc...

It will even tell you the top speed your ship could fly at based on rigs, modules(overdrive units, afterburner, mwds) and your various skills that effect your speed. It's a really cool app.

I guess we'll just use it ourselves. ugh

Roman Clevik
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:47:00 - [882]
 

If I don't pay you 99$ a year what u will do ? sue me ? ... ROTFL

Hecate Lionfire
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:48:00 - [883]
 

Originally by: Roman Clevik
If I don't pay you 99$ a year what u will do ? sue me ? ... ROTFL


Probably find your in-game and ban your account.


DJ Xaphod
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:49:00 - [884]
 

Edited by: DJ Xaphod on 16/06/2011 12:49:07
Originally by: Fractal Muse
The rest: $99 / year licensing fee to be able to charge for an app? That's a great deal.

Apart from compared to anything else comparable.

I understand you aren't used to things at this end of the spectrum, fair enough..
In perspective, this is the same as Apple's charges for writing iphone apps, yet they have the whole appstore, a reliable hosting infrastructure and a full SDK and support to justify that charge.
To get your app on the Android Market costs less; afaik this isn't even a requirement for Android apps, just a requirement for Market.
As a directly comparable example, It's perfectly ok to have adverts and donation requests on a website hosting an addon for World of Warcraft.

Quote:
If your app is totally free then there is no charge.

That, to me, is reasonable and appropriate. I'm not sure why so many people are upset by that.

It depends on how you classify "totally free". Totally free and hosted on a website with ads to either cover hosting costs, or because it's a free webhost and ads cannot be disabled, will mean a commercial license will be required.
Even having a donation button on the hosting website, which is allowed by Blizzard for World of Warcraft app builders (see above), means it counts as a commercial app.

Roman Clevik
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:51:00 - [885]
 

Originally by: Hecate Lionfire
Originally by: Roman Clevik
If I don't pay you 99$ a year what u will do ? sue me ? ... ROTFL


Probably find your in-game and ban your account.




yeah that's the only thing they can try to do ...

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:53:00 - [886]
 

Originally by: Khira Kitamatsu
Well if this goes through the Android app we were working on(similar to battleclinic's loadout builder) for Android phone users will not get finished. We had no intentions of charging anyone but would have liked to have asked for donations to off-set the hours of work put into the development of the app.


The obvious answer here is: finish the app, charge real money for it, buy the commercial licence. This is a non-issue, except that you will have to take the leap of faith that enough people will buy the app to cover the licence fee.

Android programmers are in a better situation than iOS programmers since you're pretty much free to make money however you want - charge for the app, charge subscriptions for the app to keep working, whatever.

The only issue of concern to you is whether you believe your app will sell enough copies at a reasonable price to cover the cost of listing in the Android Market and the cost of the CCP licence. You're in control of one variable there, just put the price up to $2 and hope you sell 100 copies a year :)

George Agdgdgwngo
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:55:00 - [887]
 

Edited by: George Agdgdgwngo on 16/06/2011 12:56:29
Heres a solution to CCPs idiocy.

A group of programmers can be considered a single "company" or "developer" by every countries law, so everyone wanting to program merely joins the "FREE TO JOIN PROGRAMMER CORPORATION OF BONUS MONEY INTERNETS" and can use one licence aslong as all the programs developed are named "F2JPCBMI - (program name)".
Problem solved.

I propose Chribba head this up as everyone loves the chribster, except chribba he hates him self deep inside.

Thus CCP only net $99 out of this colossal waste of time and money, ofcourse now Ive posted this theyll probably say "oh no wait its per program".

In short: **** off CCP dont hurt those that are helping you make the game better.

Edit: I also propose CCP add a down/up vote option to devblogs so I can spend all day downvoting this one.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:55:00 - [888]
 

Originally by: Roman Clevik
If I don't pay you 99$ a year what u will do ? sue me ? ... ROTFL


They could bar your application from accessing the API, for starters. Your EVE API based application might become a little useless without it.

Other than that, yes they could sue you for copyright violation, which in most countries carries rather severe penalties.

Dea Morti
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:56:00 - [889]
 

Edited by: Dea Morti on 16/06/2011 13:25:32
Hi CCP guys!

First of all I have to quote a very true comment of this thread:

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats




And here come my thoughts.

What the f.u.c.k is wrong with you guys? Why are your so terrible in marketing your product?

Let's check some facts:
3rd Party Development is not violating the Eve Online EULA at point 11 (PROPRIETARY RIGHTS) at all! (too long to quote EULA
Nobody takes your intellectual property and uses it for his own business.

You want a fee for something where you already get one. For understanding I quote the EvE Online EULA Point 2/A paragraph 4:
Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities. Business entities and anyone who is acting for or on behalf of a business or for business purposes may not establish an Account, access the System or play EVE. Accessing the System or using the Game for commercial, business or income-seeking purposes is strictly prohibited.

This leads me to my next point...

Donations how ever they may look like, doesn't matter if they are real money or ISK, are voluntarily. That means if someone is coding in his spare time some really cool stuff and provides it for free(all those awesome services like EveMon, EvEHQ, dotlan, eve-central, chribba stuff at all, and so on) and another guy likes it so much that he would even give something back to the coder, thats no profit oriented business at all and not violating the recent Eula paragraph I quoted.

You should show more respect to this guys! In fact they are working for you! They provide a network of useful tools making your product even better and OMG it's free for you and the community. You have not to pay a single króna (Icelandic currency) for their work. Instead of trying to charge them you should think about a service to pay them 99$ a year for what they are doing for YOU!

Conclusion:
It's absolutely hilarious that you even think about that 3rd party developers should pay you. Think about of hiring them as full time or freelancers. You have to pay them no they have to pay you!
The best way for you guys is to delete this hogwash idea and find your way back from moronism!

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:58:00 - [890]
 

Originally by: George Agdgdgwngo
A group of programmers can be considered a single "company" or "developer" by every countries law, so everyone wanting to program merely joins the "FREE TO JOIN PROGRAMMER CORPORATION OF BONUS MONEY INTERNETS" and can use one licence aslong as all the programs developed are named "F2JPCBMI - (program name)".


Which is pretty much how a Django based web site works - one web site, multiple "applications" sitting side by side, sometimes sharing libraries (for example, the Django-ised Python library for accessing the EVE API).

Tecknoth
Caldari
Pandora Requiem
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:58:00 - [891]
 

Edited by: Tecknoth on 16/06/2011 13:04:38
CCP You're doing it wrong. Simply state that the only app needing the commercial licence are the ones that actually charge the user for their usage of it. Donations, and yes even advertising should in no way be included in the deal.

Unless you want to kill any form of possible refund for those out there that are willing to serve the community for free...

EDIT :

Originally by: Dea Morti
Donations how ever they may look like, doesn't matter if they are real money or ISK, are voluntarily. That means if someone is coding in his spare time some really cool stuff and provides it for free(all those awesome services like EveMon, EvEHQ, dotlan, eve-central, chribba stuff at all, and so on) and another guy likes it so much that he would even give something back to the coder, thats no profit oriented business at all and not violating the recent Eula paragraph I quoted (...) You should show more respect to this guys! In fact they are working for you!


Quoting it, because it's so much true !

Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.06.16 13:02:00 - [892]
 

*sigh*

CCP - please just stop being a business and stop trying to make money. We all want to play Eve for free and we all want to have a voice in where your game is going - but damn you we don't want to pay you for it!

I agree with your CEOs interpretation of this thread. The devblog was 'reasonable' in that it clearly stated nothing is set in stone - these are just ideas. Sadly, everyone actually thinks what was written in the devblog is already a reality and the decisions have already been made. See what *not* listening to your player community buys you? Distrust. Perhaps you should use a bigger font, a different color... bold and/or italics, perhaps, to draw attention to statements like 'Nothing has been set in stone' so folks might pay attention. Might. Until then they're all just whining little carebears with carebear tears that taste so sweet. ;P

I've said it before, I will say it again (and again, and again). The underlying premise of charging a $99 (or whatever) fee for commercial use of API data will lead to many commercially viable tools for the community.

So, CCP, quell the growing storm by redacting your original statements about charging free, ISK based, donation or ad supported websites for API use and focus on the one decent part of the entire concept that nobody is really *****ing about.... commercial use of your data for commercial purposes.

But no, you're scared now. You've opened a big ole can of worms and nobody brought a fork with them. You'll simply walk away from this shaking your heads wondering why you even bother trying to provide the Eve online community with added incentives to build awesome commercial tools the developers could actually make money on. You mis-stepped. Corrective action is required. Make the corrective action so we can all get down to the business of talking business. Redact your statements. Please?

Again - developers, players, et al. CCP has received the message loud and clear. We don't want and do not feel it would be fair for them to charge developers to use the IP of Eve that are not specifically monetizing their websites in a 'pay for play' sceanrio. We're offended that CCP would even consider it and it seems like they're a bunch of money grubbing asshats. They're a business, so yeah - they're money grabbing asshats anyway - but they provide a unique service to the world. There is no other sandbox like Eve anywhere. There is no game that pushes technology as hard as Eve Online has pushed. CCP has simply offered one perspective on offering commercial license of their IP - their perspective. Now they got to hear our perspective. Continuing to call them asshats, which is mildly amusing, isn't solving anything. It's simply polluting the forums with emo reactions to an otherwise sensible and reasonable RFC. 'No, we don't think we should have to pay for a commercial license if we're not running a commercial enterprise that makes any real money' would have been equally sufficient in communicating your message folks. Just sayin. :P

I will continue to watch this thread for a redaction and subsequent quelling of the emo carebear tears. Perhaps then we can talk about the only important issue left - commercial use of EVE IP by commercial applications for the express purpose of making cold, hard cash. :)

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2011.06.16 13:02:00 - [893]
 

Boycott the ****ing license.
Run the websites with ads anyway. If they threaten to sue, its eve and them who lose.

Also, what could they sue for except for IP infringement? Remove all critical references from the app/site and they can go **** themselves.

By criminalizing devs who don't want to put both time and money INTO eve they are just forcing them to do stuff more anonymously/underground, which blurs the lines to the darker aspects of eve like rmt... Eve and CCP lose again.

BuRniZZ
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.06.16 13:03:00 - [894]
 

CCP Atlas has some great news is really really dumb.

I'm in my 4th year, tried out pretty much everything the game has to offer, and the last expansions have had virtually no content I'm interested in. Why am I still here, because of all the things the community has built up outside the game.

Dotlan, FHC, Kugu, Evemon, Eft, EVEMEEP, loads of bloggers, Chribba! and probably a lot more I can't remember is what makes Eve what it is to me. The people running these sites are the reason I still pay $550 each year to play your game. And now you want to charge THEM money? Even if they just get paid in isk/donations. What is wrong with you?

Your marketing department is what attracts new players to the game. The 3rd party enthusiasts are what keep bittervets subbed. Don't kill their enthusiasm by being greedy bastards.

Arkon Hjallian
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.16 13:05:00 - [895]
 

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats




+2

Ivanna Nuke
Gallente
Holders Of The Cowbell
Posted - 2011.06.16 13:05:00 - [896]
 

YARRRR!!
Originally by: DJ Xaphod
Edited by: DJ Xaphod on 16/06/2011 12:49:07
Originally by: Fractal Muse
The rest: $99 / year licensing fee to be able to charge for an app? That's a great deal.

Apart from compared to anything else comparable.

I understand you aren't used to things at this end of the spectrum, fair enough..
In perspective, this is the same as Apple's charges for writing iphone apps, yet they have the whole appstore, a reliable hosting infrastructure and a full SDK and support to justify that charge.
To get your app on the Android Market costs less; afaik this isn't even a requirement for Android apps, just a requirement for Market.
As a directly comparable example, It's perfectly ok to have adverts and donation requests on a website hosting an addon for World of Warcraft.

Quote:
If your app is totally free then there is no charge.

That, to me, is reasonable and appropriate. I'm not sure why so many people are upset by that.

It depends on how you classify "totally free". Totally free and hosted on a website with ads to either cover hosting costs, or because it's a free webhost and ads cannot be disabled, will mean a commercial license will be required.
Even having a donation button on the hosting website, which is allowed by Blizzard for World of Warcraft app builders (see above), means it counts as a commercial app.


I wonder DJ will ER have to cough up also?

Ensei Grad
Posted - 2011.06.16 13:05:00 - [897]
 

this is BS. if you really go through with that i will have to quit eve. even though i love this game so much a very big part of that is the community around it. by charging for such services you are basically trying to kill a big part of this community i.e. telling them to pay for the huge service they provide for the game otherwise to (understatement here) get out.

WisdomPanda
Goatriders Horde
The Scapegoats
Posted - 2011.06.16 13:07:00 - [898]
 

Originally by: George Agdgdgwngo
A group of programmers can be considered a single "company" or "developer" by every countries law, so everyone wanting to program merely joins the "FREE TO JOIN PROGRAMMER CORPORATION OF BONUS MONEY INTERNETS" and can use one licence aslong as all the programs developed are named "F2JPCBMI - (program name)".
Problem solved.


Developers are nothing if not of varied beliefs. I don't see a huge amount of "yay" in the idea of giving over your baby for some umbrella corp to own. (They would own the idea as CCP saw it, not you.)

Yaghar Abygrian
Posted - 2011.06.16 13:08:00 - [899]
 

Originally by: Windjammer
BizDev = Marketing. Marketing is the single greatest source for really bad ideas in any corporation I’ve ever been directly involved with, associated with, or studied. The department draws egotistical, self-assured, incompetent idiots like no other department. With that in mind, you really can’t blame the “BizDev” department for release of this first draft. Simply put, they should not be held responsible for release of this “first draft”. No one should expect better from them.


Include the the legal department and I couldn't agree more.

DJ Xaphod
Posted - 2011.06.16 13:09:00 - [900]
 

Edited by: DJ Xaphod on 16/06/2011 13:11:47
Edited by: DJ Xaphod on 16/06/2011 13:09:35
Quote:
I wonder DJ will ER have to cough up also?


Personally, I doubt it, as we're essentially a fansite providing an out of game entertainment service that doesn't use anything of CCP's beyond what would be normally considered fair use..
Considering the wording in this devlog is so very woolly and non specific though it's hard to say.

EDIT - anyway, this is all just my personal opinion and shouldn't be taken as a viewpoint of the entirety of eve-radio.. I actually didn't intend to post under my DJ character for that reason but.. well, oops. I didn't realise it'd keep reverting back.


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