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DethApostle
Amarr
Ammo and Tag
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:31:00 - [811]
 

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Dominik Miethling
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:31:00 - [812]
 

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats




Sometimes it's just funny how CCP gets "great" ideas to improve our gaming experience Laughing

Ununni
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:34:00 - [813]
 

Originally by: DethApostle
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats




Femina Mactabilis
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:36:00 - [814]
 

Edited by: Femina Mactabilis on 16/06/2011 11:36:55
Dotlan Maps, EVEmon, EVEhq, EFT, iClone. Just a few names of Apps that I use to make-up for features that CCP has not bothered to make/develop. And now you want to charge developers a fee for developing stuff you should have developed yourselves? Seriously. ****ed. Up.

Start fixing the game mechanics first! Instead of thinking of USELESS features such as Incarna, Micro-transactions and now an API License fee.

P.S. There'd better be an option to display the old hangar in Incarna!


grapheem
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:38:00 - [815]
 

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats





Xythe Marstolt
Minmatar
Stark Industries PtyLtd
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:38:00 - [816]
 

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Althus Treefingers
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:38:00 - [817]
 

Mostly:
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats


And:
Originally by: CCP Atlas

Cha Ching


But also:
I was pretty sure from the last time I read the EULA that certain services for ISK were considered acceptable since they were for game-related use only and the tools were not available in-game. So how much of that would change? I've done a few logos and sigs for ISK over the years, many of which use image dumps or desktop backgrounds as source material (sometimes screenshots). Are you gonna go all DRM on us and demand licensing for what might (very loosely) be called derivative works? Or is this only a problem if I use something other than in-game tools to set up the sale? (i.e. no website) Will I need the non-com license to just download the dumps a look at them?

And finally:
Originally by: CCP Atlas
services created using the ... In-Game Browser ....
Is this even a thing? You make it sound like people are using the browser itself to actually write the apps or something, not just as a delivery mechanism.

Bernadictus
Caldari
S.A.S
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:40:00 - [818]
 

Edited by: Bernadictus on 16/06/2011 11:40:11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayy7BEIOF2o

The new CCP themesong.

Zakarumit CZ
Amarr
Zakarum Industries
Exiliar Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:41:00 - [819]
 

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Peyatoho
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:42:00 - [820]
 

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats

Salomei
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:42:00 - [821]
 

F-ing rent seekers is what you are, CCP. Evil or Very Mad

Lady Kincaid
Gallente
BSX Industries
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:42:00 - [822]
 

Edited by: Lady Kincaid on 16/06/2011 11:52:11
How to avoid 99$ tax legal way:

Each 3rd party service owner will create a corp in eve, and each customer will join that corp using noob alt (for example jita pc alt). After that its perfectly legal to transfer isks from each main to alt in that corp (as long as account credentials eg name email, are same).
Then you can transfer isks from your nob alt to 3rd party corp wallet. That isks can be sonsidered as payment for 3rd party service, but for ccp its normal corp payment for membership or donation for corp.

Transactions corp member <> corp wallet are perfectly legal. You can even link corp wallet api with out of game 3rd party accounts and make it subscribed or unsuscribed according to api.

And thats all.

Alysina
Gallente
Everset Dropbears
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:42:00 - [823]
 

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Shang Ty
Degenerate Corp
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:43:00 - [824]
 

This is a terrible idea. First off, the price is way out of line for what is provided. You are not Apple, who does charge $99 for a developers license. But with that, you get access to a developers kit, documentation, developers support boards, the latest beta code for their products, etc. At least with Apple, you can make a good bit of money (i.e. get rich) if your app is a hit.

Even World of Warcraft with their game mods do not do this. For people who write mods for the game, they can ask for donations, but Blizzard disallows ANY type of fee for it. They did this when Carbonite (a quest helper) came out and started requiring a subscription to their service. It stopped this type of activity, but still allowed for people to donate to mods they supported.

This is a money grab, plain and simple. You will end up doing more harm than good to not only the developers of these wonderful sites and applications which support your game, but also to your customer base of gamers. Requiring $99 if anyone receives .01 ISK, a small donation, or anything to help offset the cost of running a website is absurd. People like Wolari and Chribba *MIGHT* make enough to offset the cost of running their respective websites, but you are going to put the nail in the coffin and end up having them shut their site down. And I don't blame them. It wouldn't be worth the bother anymore when CCP decided to not support the community who loves their game.

I cannot imagine EVE without the outside sites, since CCP does not update their own database/wiki websites, provide API documentation that is current, provide a workable forum search, offline maps, fitting tools, etc. CCP has even offered up many times how the community has come together to build these great tools and sites for the players to use, and now in one move is going to kill most of them.

If CCP's intent is to destroy the community and its own game, you are doing a fine job of it. You have made your bed, and I hope you enjoy lying in it.

Falrec
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:46:00 - [825]
 

Originally by: Zakarumit CZ
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats





THISRolling Eyes

CCP will lose more money than he will earn. It really is a crap idea, there is no need for graduates to understand it.

YOU ARE DESTROYING YOUR OWN GAME, better than RMTers.Evil or Very Mad


Ugleb
Minmatar
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:47:00 - [826]
 

Edited by: Ugleb on 16/06/2011 11:57:51
Lets say that my alliance has a forum and a killboard. Our admin pays for the hosting of out of his own pocket. There is a small commission from shattered crystal, but less than the hosting bill and less than $99 a year.

Will he now be required to stump up a further $99 a year to CCP?

If yes, and he dropped the shattered crystal link, would he then be exempt?

It seems to me that hosting community sites for EVE is about to get more expensive for the community, and probably see shattered crystal's ad banners vanishing from many a killboard.

Edit - I may or may not understand the shattered crystal thing, I don't host stuff!

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:49:00 - [827]
 

28 pages of strong negative reaction and CCP remains essentially invisible in except on page 9 where Atlas made his sarcastic comment. No surprises, there, I guess.

Nothing about CCP's so-called 3rd party monetization "proposal" sounds like they did any serious analysis of potential ramifications. If they had, they could have answered the most anticipated questions right up front in the dev blog, and maybe even based their "proposal" on feedback given by some of their most dedicated 3rd part devs at the FanFest round table (which was apparently ignored according to Wollari's comments earlier in this threadnaught). Or...I don't know...conducted a proper needs/business analysis that involved the target audience? But no...again we see the infamous "throwing **** against a wall to see what sticks" mentality that Hilmar and CCP are so proud of. Why they persist in this matter when it so consistently produces nothing but a ****ty wall, I do not know.

Samillian
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:49:00 - [828]
 

I had begun to think there was hope for CCP over the last few months what with some things actually being done right for once.......but:

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats




Do every player a favor and take your BizDev team out and alpha them.

Prodiwan Renobie
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:51:00 - [829]
 

Let me get this straight:
I am developing a little application for my personal use.
I decide to make it public, since other people might find it useful.
I won't charge for it in any way, but still welcome ISK donations.
I'll need to buy a commercial license for that?

That would be ******ed.


El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:52:00 - [830]
 

So its almost lunchtime, think you could come out from under your desk Atlas and address these concerns? Or is this like every other devblog that the EVE population finds offensive, just go to quiet mode and do it anyway, players be damned!

SOE tried that and more and more CCP is doing it, be careful lest you suffer SWG fate....


Raid'En
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:53:00 - [831]
 

Edited by: Raid''En on 16/06/2011 12:14:04

Here's a summary of all you need to read here :

1 ) Our community's devs they are really NOT here for the money :
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Here's HOW MUCH I make for providing the six and totally free and open to everyone services on my self paid hosted website :
A WHOLE 0.26 € in 6 months!!!
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7792/63121218.png

Originally by: Chribba
As a creator of sites/applications/services for New Eden since well over 6 years now, I can tell you that I have never once created something with the goal to make money off

2) CCP, you remember you gave us CSMs, to talk about important things, like for example... THIS ?
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

Unfortunately, CSM was not given a preview of this devblog.


3) What's everyone is thinking here :
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats

Originally by: Chribba

This is not about the $99, this is about how you want to charge me because I want to do something for the community out of my free will - does that sense?


4) Paying a licence ON SOME CASE is okay, but for god sake, not for EVEERYTHING !
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Differentiate between different classes of licensee; there are probably three: those who charge a RL$ fee, those who accept RL$ donations or sell ads (especially to cover costs), and those who charge in-game fees or accept in-game donations. One price does not fit all, and arguably all but the first should be free or a token ($1).

Originally by: Akita T
Ad revenue and ISK payments should really, really NOT require a 99$/year license.
Everything else, sure, why not. But not those two.

Originally by: Chribba
Firstly, you seriously need to make a DISTINCT difference of in-game and out-of-game payment/donation/fees.
I personally don't see any legitimate reason for me to like pay a license fee in order to run my in-game 3rd-party service that generate me ISK income in-game.


5) The last word :
Originally by: Chribba
And I know from my personal developments that I would never have thought about it if the first thing I needed was to pay a license fee.
With a license, most of any future idea will never become more than just an idea.


/Thread

Shazina Sin
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:55:00 - [832]
 

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Vicuska
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:55:00 - [833]
 

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats




YARRRR!!

Moraine Queen
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:56:00 - [834]
 

I am going to respond in one simple sentence

'Fire your dev team'. I'm serious.

When the dev team stops listening to the player community and thinks they know better its time for them to be fired. And I see a lot of that going on with this team right now.

Get your freaking priorities right instead of trying to milk everything for money or you wont have any left.

Ceq Lysander
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:57:00 - [835]
 

CCP have some customer feedback:

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats




QFT.

Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:57:00 - [836]
 

Edited by: Consortium Agent on 16/06/2011 12:11:14
heh. Light firecracker... walk away.

So, CCP, I guess you have your answer. Don't even suggest charging a minimal fee for commercial access to your intellectual property for the purpose of monetizing 3rd party apps. No, clearly the community has no need for commercial access to your intellectual property.

I understand why many are p*ssed off. Some aspects of your initial plan just, well, suck and were not well thought through. I, personally, understand what you're trying to accomplish... and had you not suggested charging a commercial license fee to people who make ISK or accept donations/display ads on their eve related sites the reaction wouldn't have been so violent.

I'm smart enough to recognize that you were never really going to be able to charge 3rd party developers who run free, ISK or donation/advertisement based websites. Partly because you already expose a public API and don't have the time, talent or wherewithall to go after every Tom, D*ck and Chribba <g> that runs a fansite, and partly because I knew the reaction to that suggestion was going to be bad... I didn't realize (and neither did you) that it would be *this* bad... but Eve players are some of the most passionate people I've ever met - and that's a good problem to have as a game developer. Sadly, nobody else seems to know that yet. Give them time. They'll catch on eventually.... maybe.

I know you stated that nothing was set in stone and you opened the forum specifically to see what people like and don't like about the idea. Damn that one misstep tho - I was all ready to talk with other developers about monetizing commercial sites. Now I have pages and pages of euro-whine, ameri-tweaked asshats who couldn't be bothered to read and try and understand the scope of your comments. In fact, I suspect many people simply jumped on the bandwagon on this one.

To the Eve developer community. Chribba, et al. I know you've been at this forever bud, and I'm on your side. Free and ISK/Donation/Ad supported websites who are not expressly monetizing the Eve API data should not be charged any fees whatsoever. Period. I'm pretty sure CCP has gotten that message now. And if not, there should be another 20 pages of people calling them asshats to reinforce the notion.

However, the underlying premise of charging for commercial license to make money off of CCP intellectual property, if you step back for a moment, is a boon for us developers. The players probably won't like it so much, but paying a commercial license fee will actually help create even better solutions. I'd pay for EveMon every month to be honest about it. It's worth it for me, as a player. As a developer, it would be worth it for me to engineer commercial applications that charge a monthly $$ subscription and the incentive becomes to write the best commercial applications possible to make it worth people's time to use and money to spend. That's the incentive CCP is trying to offer. And ultimately, if they do anything it should be just commercial websites whose only intent is to make money.

Many of us developers write tools, apps, websites and whatnot for Eve simply because a) we enjoy writing the tools, apps and websites on a personal level, b) we enjoy a certain level of notoriety within the community, and, of course... c) we love Eve online. I'm one of them. I have no intentions of monetizing anything I've already done and CCP can't force me to pay them one red cent to keep running them, really. Locking down the API will kill Eve. So, tough choices for CCP and players at the moment...

To the players and developers I say this: Relax. It was never going to happen in the first place. It was a slip of conscious thought on the part of CCP Atlas. You free and ISK site, donation and ad based sites will not be affected by this. What this does is open opportunities for the developers to create commercial tools they can charge for. You don't have to, but you'll have that option whereas now... we don't. See!


Hecate Lionfire
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:58:00 - [837]
 

Edited by: Hecate Lionfire on 16/06/2011 11:59:53
Originally by: PCaBoo
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats







Glasgow Dunlop
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:58:00 - [838]
 

Originally by: PCaBoo
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats





Also to quote a Mr M. Jackson :

Skin head, dead head
Everybody gone bad
Situation, aggravation
Everybody allegation
In the suite, on the news
Everybody dog food
Bang bang, shot dead
Everybody's gone mad

All I wanna say is that
They don't really care about us

All I wanna say is that they don't really care about us

All I wanna say is that they don't really care about us


Moraine Queen
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:58:00 - [839]
 

Originally by: Vicuska
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats




YARRRR!!

Kestix Wulff
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:58:00 - [840]
 


Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats




This and custom designed items youŽll need to buy plex for?
GREAT NEWS!
ccp you really wanna improve the profit, donŽt you?


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