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NeuroSpike
Posted - 2011.06.16 06:10:00 - [661]
 

CCP's new motto, Were not happy tell your not happy.

Kronus Heilgar
Dark Orbit Media
Posted - 2011.06.16 06:11:00 - [662]
 

Edited by: Kronus Heilgar on 16/06/2011 06:18:45
Edited by: Kronus Heilgar on 16/06/2011 06:14:20
Originally by: NeuroSpike
CCP's new motto, Were not happy tell your not happy.


My quote of the day.

Fight for the right to develop for free! Participate in the

EVE 3rd-Party Shutdown Party


Caphelo
Posted - 2011.06.16 06:13:00 - [663]
 

Originally by: Consortium Agent

I, for one, have zero opposition to the $99/yr fee. Frankly, that's low in contrast to what one might expect to pay for API access to data you are then, essentially, allowed to monetize. You can't even get access to an IP<->City lookup service for that price... and that information is public record <g>.


BAM: http://www.ipinfodb.com/index.php

Hear that sound? It's the sound of your credibility exploding.

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.06.16 06:14:00 - [664]
 

Originally by: Soi Mala
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats





Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.

this

Saint Lazarus
Pwn 'N Play
Chaos Theory Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.16 06:16:00 - [665]
 

Ok assuming CCP pull their head out of their a$$ and NOT charge those who only want IN GAME cash for their copious amounts of time; killing off the free and most important, widely used apps and services, in favour of the SMALLER amount who want to spend RL cash on them.


So we get a situation where EvE attracts a very professional level of development for in game services and apps, something that gives an advantage to those willing to pay RL cash for it. This puts those unwilling to fork out 2 monthly fees at a disadvantage; Imagine having to pay RL cash for EFT, now imagine you refuse to but everyone else does and think of the tremendous disadvantage you're at.



All around I think its a BAD idea, any 3rd party service fundamental to success in EvE needs to be free

Demy Slade
Posted - 2011.06.16 06:19:00 - [666]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas
S
I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.




I'd rather do that if i where in your shoes because the moment you legally put a pricetag on ISK you make them free to trade and your Blockout of trading in game currency legally vurnable, furthermore you will have to prove that any and all offered so called "Applications" are indeed to be considdered comercial before charging up a license to that extend. If you're indeed taking a not set in stone aproach now's the time to take another look on that Proposal because i think the moment you try to enforce any of that you'll cut yourself and your Paying Customers, that you now plan to double charge.
On that note i also like to add that i am not satisfied with a product that has been unstable and down more often then up in the time i had availible for playing mainly GMT afternoons and evenings do you plan to reimburse that to. Since you're all so eager to get down to all numbers i want to make sure that i as customer am able to charge you for not providing paid for service.
Peace.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.06.16 06:20:00 - [667]
 

Originally by: Kaahles
Almost forgot... What's next? EVE's own app store were CCP grabs 30% of the income? Would be the next step right? So why not get it over with and kill the game finally so we can go move on to the next one?


Wouldn't a "30% of revenue" model be better than "$99/y regardless of how much you make" model?

Quote:
Over time the tool/service becomes popular and my server traffic spikes on a regular basis. I need to migrate to a larger hosting option, pay for more traffic and that kind of stuff is not cheap. So eventually I will be forced to use affiliate programs like shattered crystal or general advertising to remotely break even. At that point you guys step in and kill us off with another 99 bucks?


If you can make RL money from subscriptions/donations that players buy through the EVE Ingame Store, wouldn't that make life easier for you?

Quote:
Yeah... right. If I could afford that sort of money I'd be doing smartphone apps and selling them ffs.


People with iPhones are more likely to spend their money on your app. They're cashed up and willing to spend. So there's no reason you wouldn't want to spend the $99 for the EVE IP licence if you thought your app would even sell 100 copies.

If you pay for the $99 licence, then accept donations through PayPal, you'd only need 99 people a year to donate $1 to break even.

Alternately if CCP switched to an App Store model of selling subscriptions in-game, you would make plenty of money from people buying "donations" for you ingame. Someone like Chribba would just subscribe to the ingame store plan, list the types of donations he's accepting (e.g.: 1 Aurum, 10 Aurum, 100 Aurum) and let the players loose. No more concerns about ads for ISK sellers or mining bots!

So only the people who want to spend the ISK/Aurum will need to. Even better, with the ease of spending ISK/Aurum to support their favourite sites, more people will do so. And the icing on the cake is that through the EVE Ingame Store, these developers will get more exposure than what they currently get through the forum-only crowd.

The only catch is getting CCP to spend the effort on selling subscription tokens through the ingame store, providing an API to validate the codes, and making sure they get it right the first time round (no duplicating tokens, ensuring tokens are destroyed when redeemed for codes, that kind of thing). Gotta spend money to make money, and all that.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.06.16 06:26:00 - [668]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 16/06/2011 06:31:06
Originally by: NeuroSpike
CCP's new motto, Were not happy tell your not happy.
CCP has been bought out by Comcast?
Originally by: Caphelo
Originally by: Consortium Agent
I, for one, have zero opposition to the $99/yr fee. Frankly, that's low in contrast to what one might expect to pay for API access to data you are then, essentially, allowed to monetize. You can't even get access to an IP<->City lookup service for that price... and that information is public record <g>.


BAM: http://www.ipinfodb.com/index.php

Hear that sound? It's the sound of your credibility exploding.
Yeah, but they got my city wrong… Razz
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Wouldn't a "30% of revenue" model be better than "$99/y regardless of how much you make" model?
Yes, except that it requires an almost impossible amount of accounting insight unless CCP owned the entirety of the payment chain, including ad networks. Even an app store wouldn't be enough to cover all the things they want to cover.

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.06.16 06:28:00 - [669]
 

Edited by: Zagdul on 16/06/2011 06:32:07
Edited by: Zagdul on 16/06/2011 06:30:44
Originally by: Ibn Faldan
Originally by: Akita T

Ad revenue and ISK payments should really, really NOT require a 99$/year license.
Everything else, sure, why not.
But not those two.




+1




Where do I submit my invoice for the developers on my site who create apps that make your game better/easier/more convenient and draw customers to re-sub?

They deserve their cut too.

Captain Jabrilo
Posted - 2011.06.16 06:30:00 - [670]
 

ohnoes!
Blizzard has infested CCP with a spy who now tries to destroy EVE community

WE ARE DOOOOOMED!!! DOOOOOOOOOOOMED!! (c) Prof. Farnsworth

Duces88
Posted - 2011.06.16 06:34:00 - [671]
 

Originally by: Zagdul
Originally by: Soi Mala
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats





Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.

this


CCP, common now....seriously....

Candente
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.16 06:34:00 - [672]
 

Has CCP seriously think charging the developers of EFT and EveMon a subscription fee a good idea? Sure, providing API, image service etc takes up system resource and a payment plan for developers who want to sell their software through app stores and/or require ISK subscription is a mutual beneficial relationship.

EFT and EVEMon exist because the game lacks essential features the players want. CCP should re-evaluate what are the kinds of app/services out there and make a deep reflection on the meaning of "donation".

Miklas Laces
A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A
Posted - 2011.06.16 06:34:00 - [673]
 

Originally by: Zagdul
Originally by: Soi Mala
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats





Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.

this


I still haven't decided if they have become way too greedy or just stupid as f u c k.


MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.06.16 06:41:00 - [674]
 

Thread is big but I want to drop my 2 cents anyways.

A commercial venture is something that makes a product or service and then charges money for it.

A commercial venture is not something that relies on donations to stay alive.

Simple. and I'm just a college student.


Black Madness
Minmatar
Natural Born Builders
United Corporations Of Modern Eve
Posted - 2011.06.16 06:43:00 - [675]
 

Still waiting for them to jump in laughing "Hey, it was a joke".

Oh wait.

el caido
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2011.06.16 06:45:00 - [676]
 

Edited by: el caido on 16/06/2011 06:47:34

What's the logic here? That's actually a serious question.

Originally by: devblog
The licensing fee is there to partially cover expenses from this initiative and more importantly, we need to charge a fee so that we get proper non-spoofable information about the applicant.

What 'expenses'?
Who actually buys any third party EVE apps?
Why are you trying to fix something that seven (edit: eight!) years has shown isn't broken?

Everything I need in EVE is already in the game itself or on the intertubes for free. Unless you're (god forbid) radically changing game mechanics, this seems like a wasted effort.

Dasola
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.16 06:47:00 - [677]
 

Edited by: Dasola on 16/06/2011 06:47:46
Here by your not required to send donations, infact you are forbidden to send donations.

If you do mistakenly send isk, it will not be returned since it has no real value and would be waste of my irl time to send it back.


You may use this service for free, but as ccp so elegently but it, theres no waranty and it is served as is...

PS. CCP will you pay me 99$ year for all thoe comercial adverticements you show on my eve login screen? They do use my irl payed bandwith after all, and since theres no way to disable them.

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.06.16 06:48:00 - [678]
 

Originally by: CCP Manifest
Clarification post will be coming shortly. Just wanted to let ya'll know we know this thread needs it.




nut uh




Mechnom
Posted - 2011.06.16 06:51:00 - [679]
 

Originally by: Miklas Laces


You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats


------------

Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
------------
I still haven't decided if they have become way too greedy or just stupid as f u c k.




guess it's quite a bit of both...

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.06.16 06:51:00 - [680]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas
So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate! ShockedShockedShocked

Anyway, thank you all for your input so far. Based on your comments, I feel I should step in to clarify a few things and address some concerns.

1) The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement. We published it to get feedback from you guys. This is not the final word on the matter and we want to build this service up with you so that it's fair and empowers you to build these applications and services which better the game.

2) Regarding this clause:
Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.


I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.

3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.

4) Nothing is set in stone. We're willing to reconsider anything you deem unfair about the program. Donation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope. Whether that license needs to be $99 per year is something we might reconsider.

Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers.

Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity. Rest assured this will change to suit your needs and our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE and not to throw obstacles in your way.



Do you guys have lawyers in Iceland?

I mean, I know 1st years who would have seen the problems with releasing that devblog.


Kerrisone
Posted - 2011.06.16 06:52:00 - [681]
 

Originally by: el caido
Edited by: el caido on 16/06/2011 06:47:34

What's the logic here? That's actually a serious question.

Originally by: devblog
The licensing fee is there to partially cover expenses from this initiative and more importantly, we need to charge a fee so that we get proper non-spoofable information about the applicant.

What 'expenses'?
Who actually buys any third party EVE apps?
Why are you trying to fix something that seven (edit: eight!) years has shown isn't broken?

Everything I need in EVE is already in the game itself or on the intertubes for free. Unless you're (god forbid) radically changing game mechanics, this seems like a wasted effort.


Because there have been a few people that publicly wanted to make money off their 3rd party app for CCP's IP, and I'm sure others who contacted CCP about what awesome things they'd like to do if only they could make money. So answering those few people the only solution was to say **** off to the community at large who've done things for the players and CCP's game for years.

Primarily this is for iphone/android users wanting toys for thier phones, ie there is a market along with any who'd pay for a one stop shop or super tool that might get made if only those people could make $$$ off it. Neverming those silly people giving away thier work for years and either accepting donations or using ads to offset a tiny percentage of their costs.

Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
Posted - 2011.06.16 06:58:00 - [682]
 

Originally by: Dasola

Here by your not required to send donations, infact you are forbidden to send donations.

If you do mistakenly send isk, it will not be returned since it has no real value and would be waste of my irl time to send it back.


You may use this service for free, but as ccp so elegently but it, theres no waranty and it is served as is...




I see a future in "WTS 1 Trit for 10mil ISK" contracts (ex.> "I'm not accepting donations for this app/service because it's illegal. But, I do sell Tritanium for 10 mil ISK each. You can check my contracts in-game.") Laughing

Mechnom
Posted - 2011.06.16 06:58:00 - [683]
 

additional to your monthly costs,

we now offer the service of lag free 0.0 for only 99$ a year.
taking part in larger fleet fights (20 and above) will cost you additional 150$ a year.


we are happy to announce that this will better your gaming experience for such little cost! and wa are thereby adressing issues that have been 'round since patch x.y

Majuan Shuo
Gallente
Sons Of 0din
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.06.16 06:58:00 - [684]
 

Am I the only one who read that devblog and felt like it could have been written by Professor Farnsworth?

"Good news everyone! *enter awful news here*"

Shir Akeena
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.16 06:59:00 - [685]
 

When I first read the dev blog, my first thought was: "Let the ****storm begin".

Seriously, dear CCP: This is the worst idea I ever read from you. You gonna charge people who donate their spare time and skills for making tools, that the game itself should provide in the first place. And when they try to lower the hosting costs with some ad syndication, you gonna charge for it?
The EVE community has grown so big over the last years that you need a decent dedicated server to run a useful web application for EVE players. Hosting costs are usually several 100 bucks per year. And now CCP is going to charge additionally for using their private property? Come on. EVE would not be the game it is now without 3rd party tools. You already participate on that!

On the other hand: what the non-commercial license is for? We agreed to the EULA, your terms of service and all the other lawyer yadda-yadda when we signed up for the game and for the API Keys. Why do you need another license agreement?

I run a small website with some tools for my corporation that make use of the EVE-API. The tools are tailored to our needs and probably not useful for anyone else. Why would I need a license for it?

Sorry CCP, this is really bullsh*t.

Miklas Laces
A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A
Posted - 2011.06.16 07:02:00 - [686]
 

Edited by: Miklas Laces on 16/06/2011 07:03:05
Originally by: CCP Manifest
Clarification post will be coming shortly.


The only thing that would not make you look like a complete r e t a r d at this point is pretending the dev blog was a late april fool or a joke. Or maybe fire the moron who wrote the dev blog, that would do as well.

But the main issue will not go away. Dev Blogs like this are definite proof that you idiots at CCP don't play the game anymore, you don't understand the game anymore and you are 100% out of touch with your own customers.

Great job, a s s h o l e s.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.06.16 07:03:00 - [687]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Wouldn't a "30% of revenue" model be better than "$99/y regardless of how much you make" model?
Yes, except that it requires an almost impossible amount of accounting insight unless CCP owned the entirety of the payment chain, including ad networks. Even an app store wouldn't be enough to cover all the things they want to cover.


The ingame store subscription would replace the other forms of payment. Thus the only form of revenue for a site licenced to use CCP IP would be the ingame store subscriptions.

For services that don't want to use the subscription model, the separate $99/y licence might have to apply. For smartphone apps, CCP might have to clarify with Apple / Google that ingame purchased tokens don't count as in-App purchases or subscriptions.

So rather than being ad-supported (which is a revenue model, the service gets revenue from third parties instead of visitors), services would become donation-supported. I'm confident that donations earned through an ingame store will be higher than ad revenue - partly due to a higher proportion of the visitors choosing to buy a subscription ingame because it's easy, and partly due to more players becoming visitors to a service simply because it's advertised through the ingame store.

Would you donate $1 to Dotlan using a credit card (my bank charges me $0.20 per transaction when I go over 10 transactions a month)?

Would you donate $1 to Dotlan when that only costs you Aurum equivalent to 10M ISK?

Then again, there's the one-size-fits all $99/yr contract where the developer is free to generate all the revenue they can without CCPs help.

Glasgow Dunlop
Posted - 2011.06.16 07:05:00 - [688]
 

So having a read and basically from my point of view, as soon as this fee comes in ( CCP missing a money grab, i dont think so )

When your volcano blew up, were the bizdev team having a stoll in a park and rolled a phat one with the ash . . . ?

The community is what makes the game, this thread is 14 hours old and 24-25 pages of replies? you have ****** off the guys that make all the useful, lovly free tools that we all use and that i think we would all say 99% of players are thankful off.

if your plan does go ahead, say goodbye to:

  • Evemon
    Eve-Central
    Dotlan
    EFT
    Killboards]
    Ect, Ect


so no more hulkaggeddon, in fact no more hulks going to mine, because the miners can use the free tools, less pvp as the pvp'ers dont know what there best fit will be without buying the stuff in the 1st place, less market action as the player base will shrink, more corp secuirty fails, as the wont be able to check who there playing with.

WHO GIVES A RATS ASS ABOUT A RE-SKINNED SHIP, OR EVEN WALKING IN STATIONS! In Fact, Iv been playing since 2009, and in that time iv only seen content expantion at the start of me time and nothing else, everythign else has been since that time in my eyes, meh, just meh.

Just Remeber its the players that make the game and in the end, keep you guys in a job, screw with the players and you risk shrinking that player base.

Vicuska
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.06.16 07:06:00 - [689]
 

I hope you change your minds, I play this game for 4 years with 4 characters and I do not want to stop playing. If you make the Fun Sites to shut down, I would suspend my subscritoins as the 3rd party tools make this game enjoyable. What should players do without Dotlan Maps or EVEmon? Those guys doing an excellent job (not like some CCP developers of bugs, I mean features...)

THIS IS THE WORST IDEA FROM CCP!!!

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.06.16 07:08:00 - [690]
 

Originally by: Miklas Laces
But the main issue will not go away. Dev Blogs like this are definite proof that you idiots at CCP don't play the game anymore, you don't understand the game anymore and you are 100% out of touch with your own customers.


I agree with you there - the folks at CCP appear to have let something else become important to them other than providing a great game to their customers.

My hope is that someone drafting up this third party licencing deal wasn't thinking things through all the way with the wording they chose. Hopefully they'll keep in mind sites like EVE-Search or Dotlan and perhaps even talk to Chribba and Wollari about what would work for the developers of free-to-the-community services.


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