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Sarina Rhoda
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:11:00 - [31]
 

A lot of the 3rd party apps are what make this game actually playable and enjoyable :S
evemon
killboards
eft
evefiles
If I had to start paying for these as well as my subscription fee I don't think I would bother personally :S

Its almost impossible to play the game without eft for example (unless you want to spend billions on random mods until you get your ship to fit properly). It annoys me because stuff like eft should be something ccp included into the game rather than relying on 3rd party developers!

SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:12:00 - [32]
 

I have to say when I heard this from Fanfest It got my attention enough to seek out contacts for more details all of which kind of didn't want to answer or didn't know.

Now reading this Blog I am left with the feeling of disappointment, and more to the point a little bit of anger.

In particular these Questions and their answers.
Quote:
Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.


I don't know how many people actually read Market Discussion but a majority of the websites and services offered for the higher end financial EVE meta gaming that take place there. They will need to pay $99.

Current Applications and Services that this will affect is:-

BASC Exchange
A Stock Exchange for in-game Corporations to sell Shares and pay dividends. While BSA Doesn't get paid for this service, it does take in in-game currency, to allow users to buy shares and sell shares for profit. This service when used allows everyone in EVE to use an external service to generate in-game currency profit.

EVE Insurance
A currently in Beta Project to cover T2 Industrial Ships. Players login and create accounts, register their API which monitors kill logs, they can choose to insure some ships, and if/when they are killed, EVE Insurance issues a payment for the loss of a ship. This requires a premium like all insurance companies. If the ship is never killed, the Insurance company keeps the premium. This means they'll have to pay $99.

EVE Financial Services
The parent company to EVE Insurance, it's not active yet, but under development to allow players of EVE to have full financial reports following the FIFO Account methodology. It'll produce reports which generate fully accurate account of all industrial/marketing activity. This would be a small service fee for this as the database requirements are sizable for this type of service. This means they'll have to pay $99, however after hearing about Monitored API services they did plan on paying any fee.

There are other Wallet tracking applications and services websites along with some Applications like Trade Finders, Market tracking, wallet keeping etc. Some are free, others are not, such as EMMA, EVE Trade Finder etc.

Quote:
Will donations require a commercial license?
Yes, for donation supported websites you will require a commercial license.


Quote:
Will I be able to charge real life currency for in game services?
No, the commercial license does not allow you to charge real life money for any in-game services.


These two questions and answers imply a lot. They make the whole thing seem... too hard to swallow.

Accepting Donates usually implies accepting Paypal to cover the real life financial costs of running the service. CCP is not providing free Hosting space or DNS Registration. These are fees outside of EVE and unrelated to CCP. The service itself may require CCP Servers and Connections and I don't particularly have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is being denied to accept Paypal Donation to maintain the hardware and hosting fees of a totally unrelated to CCP company.

This second answer then says "You can't take Real money". So we can accept donations of ISK but we have no legal way to take those ISK donations and cover real live financial impact.

What happens if you have a website which is used by a big alliance and has wallet tracking information etc for their members, the site doesn't JUST cover EVE, but a Gaming community that also play other games. Those games don't deny $ for service, but EVE Does. Do these Gaming communities now need to separate their EVE stuff from the other games to allow them to pay for donations to support the entire site?

This whole thing seems like the legal department had too much say, and it needs to be adjusted.

Oshanko
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:12:00 - [33]
 

Since Eve Apps are associated with Eve and CCP, will CCP make any effort to ensure the app developers aren't being Evil??

I.e. should I as a customer feel as safe giving a licensee money as I would giving CCP money?

Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:15:00 - [34]
 

Seriously, you guys are really milking this cashcow for all it's worth aren't you... Laughing

So after selling out your sandbox game and catering to the mass whinage of wannabe "wow in space" players, changing all kinds of things to make eve a fluffier place, you then sell out and start with the micro-transactions, and before the rage has even started to simmer down you announce this...

Despite eve being profitable at 50k accounts... Multiplying that number by 6-7 isn't enough, you need to milk this **** from every angle.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Blue'Cyno Goin'Up
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:16:00 - [35]
 

What seems ******ed is that this may make CCP, what 10k a year if even that. Is it really worth 10k a year ccp to **** off your customers this much?

SmallGang Bandit
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:18:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Peter Powers
Edited by: Peter Powers on 15/06/2011 16:51:55
Quote:
Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?

Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.

seriously? thats bull****. it will kill alot of the current sites doing that, like lotteries, poker, hosting, etc.

i mean its all fair and good for people who take realmoney, but for services provided for isk? thats just stupid.


1.5billion isk is equal to what, about 3-4 PLEX? and a PLEX is about 1 month of game time? So you were given the equivalent of four months of gametime for your services. That can translate into RL money, since you could choose to take the ISK you get for your service and and pay for gametime with it.

Let's take Somer Lotteries as another example (I love SOMER, FWIW). They make a profit on every ship that goes up for lottery. How much, I don't know. But if a site/service/app gets the equivalent of 6-8 PLEX (2.4 Billion ISK - 3.2 Billion ISK) in one year the license pays for itself. I'd guess sites like Somer won't have an issue with this, because the math works in their favor. I'm sorry your cool tools for donations didn't get great donations. So stop asking for donations and give them away because you love the game, or develop a better monetization scheme for your tools to increase your annual ISK income above the 3 Billion ISK mark.

And before someone goes there, I know you can't convert ISK to out of game currency legally – and maybe the folks doing this just don't need the additional ISK to pay with PLEX, so they would be forking out RL cash for the license. You can choose not to develop, or not to advertise/monetize at all, and your license is free. Your choice...

Phoenix T'ril
Gallente
Hashimoto Corporation
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:19:00 - [37]
 

What are you doing? I don't think you guys have fully understood the ramifications and chilling effect this will have. Seriously.

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:20:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Jason Edwards on 15/06/2011 17:30:36
Im not exactly sure what this new change is exactly? Is there now going to be a dev-api or something?

Gibe option to pay the $99 in PLEXs.

Also Im not a big fan of:

Quote:
Will website ads require a commercial license?

Yes, for ad-supported websites you will require a commercial license.


Ads are hardly something of concern and honestly is CCP going to be going around to every alliance website just to try to shut them down because they havent paid $99 to you? Are you really going to go around and try to seize domains or goto the hosting provider to get them shut down?

Are you really going to take that bad PR?

I think at the end of the day you're looking at the entire world legal field to support trying to take them down just because of ads or something? Thepiratebay still exists... if the entire music and movie industry's army of lawyers cant take that site down. What chance do you have? So in the end most people will just not pay and you're going to send the lawyers after them?

Florestan Bronstein
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:21:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: SencneS
I have to say when I heard this from Fanfest It got my attention enough to seek out contacts for more details all of which kind of didn't want to answer or didn't know.

Now reading this Blog I am left with the feeling of disappointment, and more to the point a little bit of anger.

I don't always agree with SencneS - but when I do it's CCP's fault.

Logma Ran
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:22:00 - [40]
 

There are two ways CCP can make these big steps on the way of killing an MMO like what happened to SWG for example.


Make it very simple in the belief that it will attract more people liking casual gaming.

Or introduce different ways of so called micro payments, either this way or giving players ability to buy items/equipments/etc directly thus having nothing else but the money in front of their eyes.

Luckily eve is not getting "simple".

But what I saw about trying to get more and more money is quite worrying.

Songbird
Gallente
T.I.E. Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:22:00 - [41]
 

finally

Nardman
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:23:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Nardman on 15/06/2011 17:24:46
Originally by: Peter Powers
Edited by: Peter Powers on 15/06/2011 16:51:55
Quote:
Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?

Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.

seriously? thats bull****. it will kill alot of the current sites doing that, like lotteries, poker, hosting, etc.

i mean its all fair and good for people who take realmoney, but for services provided for isk? thats just stupid.




Agreed. That is moronic. Requiring a commercial license when all the is in play is FAKE/PRETEND/PIXEL money? Good god that is beyond ******ed.


edit:

Quote:
Will donations require a commercial license?
Yes, for donation supported websites you will require a commercial license.


Quote:
Will I be able to charge real life currency for in game services?
No, the commercial license does not allow you to charge real life money for any in-game services.


Seriously, c'mon guys, April Fool's day was months ago. This has to be a ****ing troll. No one could be this dumb.

NoobPwn
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:23:00 - [43]
 

Is CCP going bankrupt or something?
Charging for any 3rd-party fan services that are donation-supported or game currency supported is the ridiculus shyt of the year.

Whoever purposed that should get awarded.

I'thari
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:25:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: I''thari on 15/06/2011 17:26:16
The more I read recent devblogs the more I think that CCP higher-ups are in dire need of a brain ugh

Originally by: devblog
I'm sure we will have plenty to talk about in the discussion thread. :-)
Only thing in whole blog I agree with. Not that I expect any CCP response on the matter, as usual. Rolling Eyes

edit: typos

Eli Strange
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:26:00 - [45]
 

Interesting. If I was a computer savvy person, I would be all over this, because I would be attempting to create some pretty neat third party software. Also, I am interested in how this will turn out.

Ix Forres
Caldari
Righteous Chaps
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:27:00 - [46]
 

As far as donations and things go, and to respond to Hexxx pointing out how much people valued EVE Metrics: I know a lot of people relied hugely on EM and used it extensively. We always asked for donations - from before 2009. From 2009, we made £150 from donations. So our donations would not have covered (or just have covered) the commercial license fee. They wouldn't have gone any way towards covering operating costs. And that was on a very big website that was serving a large chunk of the EVE community both directly and in API usage.

For numbers, http://www.talkunafraid.co.uk/2010/10/eve-metrics-and-popularity/ has some stats. We're talking around ~29,000 unique visitors per 30 days. Most 'fansites' (API tools, corp sites, etc) do not get anywhere near as big as EM did- there's maybe 10 or so that are this large, like EVE-Kill and Battleclinic and EVE Files/EVE Search.

Even if the ISK trading side of this were removed, $99/year is still way over what most sites can afford.

BugraT WarheaD
Astromechanica Federatis
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:28:00 - [47]
 

Oh Boy ... Evevoice again ...

Malrock
Caldari
Mea Culpa Enigma
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:29:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Tobin Shalim
And how, exactly, is this "great news" for 3rd party devs? All it's going to do is force them to cough up even more money to CCP for something that, realistically, they don't NEED to pay for to begin with since they are currently free. This means that programs like EveMON, EveHQ, EveTycoon, etc will now be forced to charge its user base a monthly fee if they wish to use the program since the costs will trickle down to the end users of the programs themselves.

Bad CCP, with this and now MT that you swore you would never do, when did you become so money-hungry that you feel the need to nickel-and-dime your customers? Did some other company/investors buy you out or something? Because I cannot really explain what would have happened internally that would cause you to come to this point.


Seriously ? CCP is commercial entity, they exist soley to take your money, if you thought eve is some free ride and you will get things for free for ever - think again, sooner or later eve will become so bloated and company so big that they will charge for everithing, becides, i think it was the end goal anyway, bait in critical mass with lot of "free" speaches and then ramp it down with money. Becides, i seriously doubt eve can handle limitless expansion, sooner or later you going to run into hardware wall where no hardware in existance can support the model eve is built on and best way to control population is money.

on the other hand, there is lot of developers for eve and for now they have been doing things for free, monetizing it means there will be a new breed of people in eve - ones that do software and services purely to leech proffit of eve community, be wary though, not all things deserve your money and i am not even gonna touch security issues.

The only way to do it "securely" i think would be if eve would offer a service similar to app-store (apple/android/nokia/ms) - they would be the ones charging the money and transfering it to developer, the rest of solutions are up for trust, and you should ask yourself a question - do you trust some random unknown developer with your credit card ?

Phoenus
Caldari
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:31:00 - [49]
 

CCP in 'dumb as ****' nonshocker.

What, with the MT debate on the General Discussion forums, and now this.

Are you trying to kill your own game?

Wibla
Minmatar
Alcatraz Inc.
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:33:00 - [50]
 

Two words:

Money. Grab.

NoobPwn
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:34:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Malrock


The only way to do it "securely" i think would be if eve would offer a service similar to app-store (apple/android/nokia/ms) - they would be the ones charging the money and transfering it to developer, the rest of solutions are up for trust, and you should ask yourself a question - do you trust some random unknown developer with your credit card ?


The point is now you don't pay RL money for a killboard and you soon will. There is nothing to do with "secure", or do you seriously think this will end those lottery scams?

SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:37:00 - [52]
 

One thing I find very odd is CCP are charging the Developers $99 to DEVELOP the Website/Application etc. But a BULK of CCP's traffic would come from the Users, NOT the developer.

Even on a huge App like EVEMon with multiple developers all using API over and over is a very small blip on the radar compared to the users of EVEMon.

You want to make API Secure? Heres an idea..
Charge the users $1 a year for API access.
If you don't pay, you can't use ANY application because you don't have API access.

The Developers would happily pay $1 per account per year to develop their application.

What's the side effect.. Oh yeah, Instead of CCP getting what at most 100 Websites/Applications all paying $100 = $10,000 yearly. They get 200,000 accounts paying $1 a year for API access.. That's $200,000 for CCP..

I would pay $1 per account per year for API what about anyone else?

Don't milk the people making the applications/running the websites.. You could easily get more money from the users and charge them... Hell $0.50 cents per account per year.. Rolling Eyes

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:37:00 - [53]
 

A few questions:
- What effect do you think this will have on currently free Eve related software (Evemon, killboards, JEveAssets, etc)
- Suppose I have a corp killboard. Does this mean that I will have to pay $100 for the corp kb software, and then pay another $100 to CCP to license the use of it ... wait what someone explain wtf is going on.
- Does this mean that all access to the API is going to be metered through an application license of some kind?

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:38:00 - [54]
 

I have a donate button on my site as my servers cost my alliance over 300+ dollars a month to run.

So now I have to add an additional $99 a year to this cost?

bah.

You suck.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:38:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 15/06/2011 17:39:43
Did you get bought by EA by chance?


Please CCP explain me this:

1) I PAY a DNS server
2) I PAY a commercial web hosting
3) I created 1 free forever and for everyone application called NEISIN.
4) I am maintaining a former abandoned application that CCP API changes broke: EvE Income Analyzer - free for everyone and open source.
5) I host the Fanfest 2011 CCP CEO showcased PLEX for <xxx> charity *with zero gain, zero euros, ZERO ISK* and I have to spend 2 working days a month to upkeep it and its balance sheets.
6) I host the Public Audit Records (a monumental task, takes days a month), an archive of EvE investments and audits. For free, for all. Because CCP forums suck so I had to reinvent the wheel.



Now, since the website has Google ads and a Donate Paypal button for my oh-so-huge traffic of 500 visitors a month, I am meant to pay?
When someone will bother clicking something I might make 20 euros a year.

ARE YOU JOKING WITH THIS?

Ask me $99 and I send you an $500 month invoice for all the work I am tirelessy doing since half a year to make YOUR game experience better for the whole EvE community.


I am sorry but I and probably Chribba are profusing work already and in change of nothing.

This is not acceptable, I will just shutdown everything and let the affected players give their feedback to you.

Filet de boeuf
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:39:00 - [56]
 

Quote:
Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
Will website ads require a commercial license? Yes, for ad-supported websites you will require a commercial license.
Will donations require a commercial license? Yes, for donation supported websites you will require a commercial license.


:facepalm:

Quote:
Will I be able to charge real life currency for in game services? No, the commercial license does not allow you to charge real life money for any in-game services.


So, what's exactly the point of this license thing ?

xXxSatsujinxXx
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:39:00 - [57]
 

Will you be charging Chribba? Laughing


Azazel Mordred
Minmatar
Cloak of Shadows
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:39:00 - [58]
 

What the hell. No thank you.

As the developer of a freely available open source web application, there is no way I am going to pay you $99 on the off chance that someone may feel like donating some non-real in-game money to me one day.

Since my code is hosted by my users in most cases, and many do some hacking on it of their own, what implications does that have for them? Do they also need to be licensed in order to use and modify my software? Do I need to spread my license around to enable people to use my software? What if someone decides to put ads on their version of the application, am I responsible for that?

This is so full of holes and so poorly thought out it's unreal.

Montolio
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:40:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Montolio on 15/06/2011 17:40:48
I fear these changes will have a damaging impact on EVE services out of game. It won't spur more development as currently written, it'll just put more financial strain on players and developers.

These restrictions need to be loosened up more before being enacted. Especially the parts focusing on donations & services for in game ISK.

If I have a killboard that has a link to shattered crystal and the server the killboard is on is donation supported, do I need to pay $99 now?

Petrus Blackshell
Minmatar
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:40:00 - [60]
 

"Great news," right.

Quote:
Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.


Welp, there goes my summer project that was meant to be a neat tool for the EVE community while making me some ISK for Rifters. If I wanted to pay RL money to get ISK, I'd just get PLEX.

So, is the Eve API just not going to be open anymore? Disappointing.


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