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Mechanoid Kryten
N0VA 5
Brainfarts
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:11:00 - [481]
 

Edited by: Mechanoid Kryten on 15/06/2011 22:12:11
When I first heard of this at fanfest, and the talk was only about real money and not isk, I thought it was a good idea. Let the really good developers make money and let me charge my measly 3m isk a month from a small number of people for my refining/mfg calculator and for my Eve Alerts phone app. maybe with the good devs charging money, i would even start making some isk off people who don't want to pay!

I am the world's only poor carebear, because I spend my time often docked up and coding or I let my mining lasers die while coding. I do not even begin to recoup my mining losses on the fees i charge, but the token payments that trickle in now and then do give me a little bit of an ego boost as in "thanks for doing this it's not for nothing" kind of way.

Now I realize I am forced to make my apps free because at 99$ a year is way more than i can ever make in plex off any fees. I can't even make one plex a year off my apps, much less several!

Now, I can't even ask for isk donations!

This is good for everyone who uses my apps -- but now I am paying out-of pocket for domain name, ssl certs, and I can't even make a bit of isk that's only a fraction of what i can make mining the worst rocks on it.

Also i was using free Eve Industrialist accounts as a sort of "thank you" prize for GrieferGeddon (anti-hulkageddon resistance contest that made the eve news) participation because poor as i am from coding instead of mining i had nothing else to give out. Now that they will be free they will also be worthless even as such. Maybe I'll manage to mine enough that i can give out 1m to everyone instead.

I will continue to work on my eve related apps because mining and coding is just what I DO in this game. But i will from now on prioritize mining over coding. I will not allow my mining lasers to die or take weeks away from mining to work on a piece of code I really enjoy. (A day or two at the most)

user restrictions on both my apps will go away soon. (but not too soon -- as I won't be taking time away from mining to fix this)

This is a sad day for me.

Herr Nerdstrom
Caldari
Havoc Violence and Chaos
Merciless.
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:12:00 - [482]
 

Originally by: Judy BigShot
Sorry for trolling.
But I got a very good idea for your "Biz Dev":
Just take extend the downtime each day from 30 minutes to 23 hours.
In this 1 hour people cant make enough ISK to "live" from PLEX.
-> More people might actually pay again for their accounts!
If this idea brought me a job in that team, just pm me!





Not sure what you're talking about, all account subscriptions are paid by RL $$ at some point, so CCP isn't losing any money by including PLEX's in the game.

Sister Megarea
Sisters of Agony
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:13:00 - [483]
 

Well, I'm going to buck the trend here and say that I think this is actually a pretty decent idea. (Far, far better than the Aurum nightmare).

In a nutshell, the API is provided as an 'extra' - It's not needed for in-game play (which is what we pay for), it's certainly not provided for anywhere near all online games - So it's been a rather nice extra for all this time.

If CCP can make an extra few bucks - And more importantly - if indie developers can make a few bucks from it - I say more power to them.

Count me amongst those that really don't have an issue with this.

Roman Clevik
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:14:00 - [484]
 

Edited by: Roman Clevik on 15/06/2011 22:16:52
serious question:

how CCP is supposed to handle and control apps around / enforce payments ?

I hope you hired tons of very good international lawyers, because I will laugh very very hard when/if I will receive a mail from Iceland saying I have to pay you for something I developed and I give out free.

Seriously: Biz Devs are a bunch of idiots because this madness could drive CCP in an endless (and very expensive) walk into international law courts that will never ever give CCP the right to ask for such payments. Otherwise, If you are not ready to sue who don't pay you, you are more clueless than I thought.

Zasx
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:15:00 - [485]
 

If this takes effect and causes any of the 4 applications I use on a weekly basis to stop updating, go to a fee schedule greater than they currently have, or disappear and or become useless. You can kiss my two accounts good bye. This is also extremely awful news for third party developers most of which do it just for the love of the game. Any charges have been to cover hosting expenses. I have personally been working on a simple android app for calculating hauling and production expenses in my spare time and think I will just discontinue work on it right now. Bad news for players bad news for developers. You guys get enough of my cash every month. Very sad.Sad

Spartan dax
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:15:00 - [486]
 

So, people that develops apps for Eve that helps retain your userbase needs to be "encouraged" by paying 99$?

Yeah... uhm..... You're kinda making me lose hope in humanity here. Are you sure your bizdev department aren't the same guys as the bankers that sunk the Icelandic economy? Reread their resumes one more time please.

Sorakage
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:15:00 - [487]
 

Originally by: Herr Nerdstrom
Originally by: Judy BigShot
Sorry for trolling.
But I got a very good idea for your "Biz Dev":
Just take extend the downtime each day from 30 minutes to 23 hours.
In this 1 hour people cant make enough ISK to "live" from PLEX.
-> More people might actually pay again for their accounts!
If this idea brought me a job in that team, just pm me!





Not sure what you're talking about, all account subscriptions are paid by RL $$ at some point, so CCP isn't losing any money by including PLEX's in the game.


It has fail logic in it , that is the idea , as he is imitating CCP logic, I mean lack of...

Yeep
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:16:00 - [488]
 

Originally by: Sister Megarea

If CCP can make an extra few bucks - And more importantly - if indie developers can make a few bucks from it - I say more power to them.


So you're ok with there never being any free Eve related apps or websites ever again just so one dude can sell an iPhone skill planner?

Raid'En
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:17:00 - [489]
 

Originally by: Akita T

Ad revenue and ISK payments should really, really NOT require a 99$/year license.
Everything else, sure, why not.
But not those two.



everybody who can do it will put ads, cause it don't cost them anything to do it. but they won't get much money for it...really not much.
and isk payments... well it's the goal of eve... why not charging 99$ to gain isk on eve why you are at it ?
you want to produce capitals ships ? pay a 99$ licence or else concord will put you red ad eternum.
be it IG or OOG making ISK is the same ; it's using your time to make ISK and not real money. i do'nt see why you should pay real money for it. that's ridiculous.

Originally by: THE BLOG
3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.

i fail to understand why not charging 10$ then.
if 10$ or 99$ change nothing for you, then prove it by asking for the lower option.
not like people will make billions of $ with that anyway.
and if you reall fear that, just ask for a % and not a fee. would be way more fair for both side.

Ovidia Rhianon
Caldari
Mining and Industrial Services
The Irukandji
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:18:00 - [490]
 

Originally by: Yeep
Originally by: Sister Megarea

If CCP can make an extra few bucks - And more importantly - if indie developers can make a few bucks from it - I say more power to them.


So you're ok with there never being any free Eve related apps or websites ever again just so one dude can sell an iPhone skill planner?


The problem most people, myself included, seem to have with this is the fact that they want to charge $99 for the right to charge ISK or accept donations.

I have no problem whatsoever with them charging a licensing fee for those that wish to charge real life money.

Cantryyp
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:20:00 - [491]
 

So all at once, someone at CCP has managed to find a quantity of money that's large enough to force some to tear down their eve related services and small enough to insult everyone who's ever taken the time to do *anything* to patch the giant information and usability holes the game developers themselves can't or won't close?

A fee to allow someone to profit from providing a service aimed at users of another service? Certainly. Requiring a fee and limiting any payment to the player to be with in game currency is asinine. Until today I had a PI spreadsheet up that could parse wallet transactions to get values for the goods and calculate values on the subsequent teirs the goods produce. It's deleted now, because some random in game competitor might decide to eliminate me by sending me an isk, then mailing CCP about a fake "donation request."

It's also a little sad that you have to lie to your entire user base about how low you can go for that fee, by claiming it'id be less but you need a hundred bucks per credit transaction to verify identity. My $10/month subscription seems to work just fine, and I seem to be able to see my name on my account details just fine. Paypal charges a dollar or so to verify it's accounts, and it even sends that dollar BACK after the transaction has done it's job.

All this for a cash grab from Battleclinic, EVEmon, the guy who made the killboard everyone uses and EFT? $400 worth of fees, assuming they don't raise a finger to your license agreement and spend their time elsewhere. Allow me to Reverse Monetize your carefully constructed Apps and Services Agreement. -$240/year from me is roughly two point four developers needed to balance the books. Any takers?

Corin en Daire
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:21:00 - [492]
 

Edited by: Corin en Daire on 15/06/2011 22:23:29
Edited by: Corin en Daire on 15/06/2011 22:22:19
Quote:
CCP will license 3rd party developers to create commercial applications and services created using the the EVE API, In-Game Browser, Static Data Export, Image Export and Eve Image server


Is this an exclusive list of information sources, meaning that a developer may only legally use information gathered by the above methods? If not, what data is off limits? For example, software has been developed to access information stored within a client's cache files; would simple "read-only" access of the information within these cache files be considered illegal?

Lederstrumpf
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:22:00 - [493]
 

Edited by: Lederstrumpf on 15/06/2011 22:21:52
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVkmr8wk9N8

^ Wouldn't it be fun to have a CCP vs. developers version of this one?

People should charge CCP for any homemade video.

Or better stop doing them due to possible legal consequences.

Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:22:00 - [494]
 

I find it very, very difficult to filter out my frustration at this time, so the following post is emotionally raw.

You guys at CCP really don't ****ing get it, do you.

We don't play EVE Online, your product, your bread and butter and sole source of income until World of Darkness and Dust 514 come online, because you're great; these last three years have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that CCP is anything but great.

Players don't make these tools on the grounds of making money (though compensation for website operational costs and ISK donations are a fair place to make up some of the difference). Players make these tools for the game because the SOCIAL INTERACTIONS IN EVE ONLINE are the GLUE THAT HOLDS THIS HALF-ASSED EXPERIENCE TOGETHER! You know the EVE China phenomenon? Your bull**** stinks so hard by now that people are willing to drop everything they have on Tranquility just to get away from those ****ING MICROTRANSACTIONS AND THIS HORRIBLE WASTE OF RESOURCES THAT INCARNA HAS TURNED OUT TO BE. We're only STILL HERE because of some SHRED of goodwill to the game and the experiences we have together.

AND NOW YOU THINK THAT ITS THE RIGHT TIME TO MAKE MONEY OFF THE PEOPLE TRYING TO FILL IN THE GAPS IN YOUR ****TY MMORPG?

Who is the ******* who decided to try to monetize everything about EVE Online to the detriment of the experience? Who is the bastard in charge of the corporate greed brigade at CCP, blind to everything good about CCP and EVE Online and incapable of seeing anything but dollar signs in front of their eyes? Who is the ******* who didn't step in to say "no, this will hurt EVE Online?" Either way, congratulations; you are fast tracking EVE Online to extinction. You've extinguished almost all enthusiasm people have for EVE Online as a hobby. EVE Online may be addicting, and the social web may be unique to EVE, but at the end of the day, nobody here needs you. Hell, at this rate, EVE Online won't even BELONG to you for long; Electronic Arts will be able to buy the game and Intellectual Property up in no time at all.

Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:23:00 - [495]
 

How about fixing spaceships first instead of all this polished ***gotery, -3 accounts if this continue's.

Helicity Boson
Amarr
The Python Cartel.
The Defenders of Pen Island
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:23:00 - [496]
 

Edited by: Helicity Boson on 15/06/2011 22:24:45
Originally by: Mechanoid Kryten
Edited by: Mechanoid Kryten on 15/06/2011 22:12:11

Also i was using free Eve Industrialist accounts as a sort of "thank you" prize for GrieferGeddon (anti-hulkageddon resistance contest that made the eve news) participation because poor as i am from coding instead of mining i had nothing else to give out. Now that they will be free they will also be worthless even as such. Maybe I'll manage to mine enough that i can give out 1m to everyone instead.

I will continue to work on my eve related apps because mining and coding is just what I DO in this game. But i will from now on prioritize mining over coding. I will not allow my mining lasers to die or take weeks away from mining to work on a piece of code I really enjoy. (A day or two at the most)

user restrictions on both my apps will go away soon. (but not too soon -- as I won't be taking time away from mining to fix this)

This is a sad day for me.


If it makes you feel any better, there won't BE any more hulkageddon either if they do this.

I'm not willing to pay 99 dollars to provide content for THEM to make more money off of either.

EVE online is a crap game with no content beyond the content that WE, the PLAYERS, generate.

Nobody plays EVE for their s h i t PvE content, or "balanced" PvP content.

People only come to this game for the stories. We are the people that make the stories, we are the people that create the content that pays for CCPs rent.

This disrespect and stupidity will need to end soon, or there will be no more stories.

Ever.


Khavi Kitamatsu
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:24:00 - [497]
 

Originally by: Sister Megarea
Well, I'm going to buck the trend here and say that I think this is actually a pretty decent idea. (Far, far better than the Aurum nightmare).

In a nutshell, the API is provided as an 'extra' - It's not needed for in-game play (which is what we pay for), it's certainly not provided for anywhere near all online games - So it's been a rather nice extra for all this time.

If CCP can make an extra few bucks - And more importantly - if indie developers can make a few bucks from it - I say more power to them.

Count me amongst those that really don't have an issue with this.


I have a problem with it. CCP barely tries to stop botting. Instead they waste time, money, and resources on this. If they put as much effort into stopping botting, more people would actually have to "pay" to play. Instead botters macro, makes billions of ISK, and it cost them nothing to play. It also ruins the economy of the players that do not cheat or bot.

Maybe if CCP put as much effort into stopping botting I might be interested in their ideal...as it is now - nope.

Alijah Mercer
Caldari
King Wholesaling
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:25:00 - [498]
 

Edited by: Alijah Mercer on 15/06/2011 22:36:29
Edited by: Alijah Mercer on 15/06/2011 22:28:22
Sorry if this is a repost, something screwed up while trying to post.

Originally by: CCP Atlas


Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers.



A. Does it really matter what we think? (This, and the results of it, indicates that what we have to say doesn't really matter: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1513581)

B. In order to entertain the absurd idea that it does matter, here is a few thoughts.

Quote:

# CCP will license 3rd party developers to create commercial applications and services created using the EVE API, In-Game Browser, Static Data Export, Image Export and Eve Image server.
# To become a licensee, developer must enter into a commercial license agreement with CCP. The fee for a commercial license is $99, payable annually by credit card or wire transfer (for identification purposes). We do not require further payments from developer or royalties.


Was loot export removed so you could start charging for it? Seems pretty ****y if thats the end result. Other than that, The idea of COMMERCIAL applications being welcome for eve is a good one I guess. Though I'd suggest you're hurting your "community" concepts that you desire with this move. But that will remain to be seen.
Quote:

Developer can choose how they monetize their app or service, provided that they conform with the EVE EULA and ToS. Examples of monetization could be donations, one-time purchase, in-app purchase, subscriptions or ad-supported sites or apps.


While I understand that if you allowed "donations" to happen without paying the $99 fee that people would likely take advantage of it, I absolutely HATE the idea that you are considering requiring a fee for donation services/apps. Is there no better solution?

Quote:
For ad-supported ventures, we require that licensed applications or services not be associated with ISK selling/buying, macros or bots. An example of unacceptable monetization would be accepting Google AdWords from sites violating our EULA and ToS. (this is essentially similar to our terms for fansites)


You have to reduce or eliminate the add based income. Some area's you simply can not enforce for example web providers who put their own adds on web pages in trade for free hosting can not be controlled by the gamer on some corp web pages. Further, the advertisements posted on a corp or alliance web site may not even support the site let alone your fee. You need to reconsider the add portion of this and figure out a better solution. I'd say you eliminate this one completely. You implied in an earlier post that there are legality issues. Figure them out, this is a problem.

Quote:
CCP may at its discretion, list developers' application or service, and provide other publicity.

Okay.

Quote:
We will continue to provide technical assistance via the Technology Lab forum and IRC channel, but CCP does not offer formal technical support to developers or warrant the API in any way. It's provided as is.


If you are going to charge for access to a service then you shouldn't offer it "as is." You damn well should offer solid customer support. If a developer pays 100 bucks and you decide to shut down, alter, or otherwise mess with the API in a way that costs the developer money you should provide services for quick fix solutions. After all this is commercialized now you shouldn't be running it like it's a bunch of back yard programmers anymore or a passive part of the CCP business plan. It's not just a favor to us anymore once you start charging for it, it's a service.



cont...

SirHarryPierce
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:26:00 - [499]
 

Luckily I made my own tools :).

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:27:00 - [500]
 

Here it comes!

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.


Have a good day, CCP.

You thrashed 6 months of my work.

Alijah Mercer
Caldari
King Wholesaling
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:28:00 - [501]
 

Quote:
Will corporation and alliance websites require a commercial license?

No, private websites do not need a license. However, if you have an external facing part of the website that uses the EVE IP you will require a non-commercial or a commercial license, depending on your use.


This is what I was talking about above. What if there is advertisements on these corporation and alliance websites? The advertised base support needs to be rethought.

Quote:
Will website ads require a commercial license?

Yes, for ad-supported websites you will require a commercial license.


This is stupid and unenforceable. If I host at yahoo.com or some other stupid place they have adds on the pages because the hosting is free. Now you're telling me I have to pay you 100.00 to keep my corp site up in this situation. Once again for stress, you need to rethink the add portion of this situation.

Quote:
Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?

Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.


This is complete BS and without ethics of any kind as has been clearly stated so many times prior to this messages. The money in game is legally good for ONLY the economy in the game. You should not be charging any fee what-so-ever for a product or service which only extends the "sandbox" model by charging administrative fees based in currency that is in the mythical world.

There is no difference in the "sandbox" model between the programmer who builds a website and charges isk for access (like eve-commander.com) and the Charon pilot who charges for hauling freight from one location to another. The API is not costing you THAT much extra to maintain. Hell even World of Warcraft offers free access to most of their API stuff and Bliz is some of the most money hungry pigs on the planet. (You really want that rep too?)

Quote:
Will donations require a commercial license?

Yes, for donation supported websites you will require a commercial license.


As mentioned above, this is complete crap. Unfortunately I don't know a good fix to keep it from being abused, but it's BS and you really need to get some heads together on this to see if you can come up with a reasonable solution. Having to do this is as bad as charging for "free apps" The amount of people that actually donate is likely to be very low.

In addition, if it's isk donations it certainly should not require a commercial license for the same reasons as above.

Quote:
Will I be able to charge real life currency for in game services?

No, the commercial license does not allow you to charge real life money for any in-game services.


While I'm certainly glad that this is the case, can you not see the idiocy in not allowing someone to charge real cash for in game services while you charge some one real cash for charging in game cash for services? What kind of messed up thinking is that?

Quote:
Why charge for the license at all?

The licensing fee is there to partially cover expenses from this initiative and more importantly, we need to charge a fee so that we get proper non-spoofable information about the applicant. We have kept the fee as low as possible and hope that the $99 fee is low enough to not dissuade serious developers from participating in the program.


the fact that this is as "low as possible" is a blatant lie. You specifically said and I'll quote again for you, "we need to charge a fee so that we get proper non-spoofable information about the applicant." If that was your primary concern you could do it for a damn dollar and demand a credit card. Can you smell whats being shoveled in this reply?


Johnathan Roark
Caldari
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:28:00 - [502]
 

This really sucks and makes you look greedy money grubbing (fill in some string of words that these forums will filter). So basically your going to force no one to release apps to the public and you will KILL a great part of EVE.

I do not like any part of it, if I do anything to cover my cost of time, servers, etc, you want me to pay you to make your spreadsheet online easier.

Cylis Veredant
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:29:00 - [503]
 

More proof that MMO Devs don't actually play their games.

Great News for 3rd Party Devs, CCP hates you.

Jessy Mastriani
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:31:00 - [504]
 

to require commercial license for 3rd party software that's uses inn-game payment or donations is a bad idea. many of the donation driven fansites already goes whit a deficit. and if you need to identify the persons behind the servis connect them to inn-game characters.

Lederstrumpf
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:33:00 - [505]
 

Originally by: Zasx
I have personally been working on a simple android app for calculating hauling and production expenses in my spare time and think I will just discontinue work on it right now.


Originally by: Mechanoid Kryten
i will from now on prioritize mining over coding


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq2oxt7Nrxo

Woodman2
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:34:00 - [506]
 

Holy crap, reading through these comments it's clear to me that 99% of you didn't bother to read the dev blog.

Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
DarkSide.
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:36:00 - [507]
 

Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 15/06/2011 22:36:25

Looks odd to say the least.

Really, either the blog is that badly written or you're even more insane than I could have suggested.

Vladimir Ilych
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:38:00 - [508]
 

CCP

Your community / customers don't want your new business license and monetizing policy and don't want MT

Stop now. If not, read you subs numbers in 12 months and don't tell us we didn't warn you.

Jaddar
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:39:00 - [509]
 

Edited by: Jaddar on 15/06/2011 22:39:38
Originally by: Woodman2
Holy crap, reading through these comments it's clear to me that 99% of you didn't bother to read the dev blog.


+1

Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:39:00 - [510]
 

"Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers.

Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity. Rest assured this will change to suit your needs and our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE and not to throw obstacles in your way."

What a crock of ****. If your goal was to empower third party developers, you'd be approaching people to license the development of full suites of game enriching features like minigames for Incarna, or perhaps a full Civilization styled 4x strategy game for the Planetary Interaction feature. Other possibilities include Skins for EVE Online ships (which could be sold as Microtransactions in game), and other things of that nature. Incentivization? Don't make me laugh; aside from a few smartphone applications that you decided to give DAS BOOT on a few years ago, there's no real room to make money with EVE Online's API. The API is far too limited to produce any product of real commercial value on the PC, let alone for a web application.

Something stinks, hard, about this explanation.


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