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Adrie Atticus
Mining and Industrial Services
The Irukandji
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:08:00 - [421]
 

Originally by: Lex Starwalker
Bottom Line:

EVE Online is an IP, and CCP is 100% within their rights to do this. It's good business sense. It's not right for others to make money off someone's IP without the owner of the IP being compensated. That's why we have copyright laws to begin with. This is the real world. No free rides.



And by enforcing this CCP removes tens, even hundreds of developers and possibly thousands of players because the 3rd party apps are what keep EvE's community alive and kicking. Without 3PP we'd have an excel simulator with shiny graphics.

Sarina Berghil
Minmatar
New Zion Judge Advocate
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:08:00 - [422]
 

Originally by: Lex Starwalker
Bottom Line:

EVE Online is an IP, and CCP is 100% within their rights to do this. It's good business sense. It's not right for others to make money off someone's IP without the owner of the IP being compensated. That's why we have copyright laws to begin with. This is the real world. No free rides.



They are within their rights to do it yes, but good business sense?

Sometimes giving stuff away earns you more money. In this case CCP wants to charge people for working for them, in the past CCP allowed people to work for them for free.

Charging for something is only good business sense if there are clients willing to pay the fee.

Amber Villaneous
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:08:00 - [423]
 

Originally by: Lex Starwalker
Bottom Line:

EVE Online is an IP, and CCP is 100% within their rights to do this. It's good business sense. It's not right for others to make money off someone's IP without the owner of the IP being compensated. That's why we have copyright laws to begin with. This is the real world. No free rides.



Bottom Line:

You are are idiot.

People are making their game better, more enjoyable, easier to play and filling in the gaps CCP does not provide. And, as an IP CCP is well within their rights to to say "Thank you" and then STFU and not dig into the pockets of the people helping them.

Algathas
Minmatar
The Revenge of Auntie Freeze
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:10:00 - [424]
 


Dani Leone
Gallente
Positively Idle
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:11:00 - [425]
 

Originally by: Lex Starwalker
Bottom Line:

EVE Online is an IP, and CCP is 100% within their rights to do this. It's good business sense. It's not right for others to make money off someone's IP without the owner of the IP being compensated. That's why we have copyright laws to begin with. This is the real world. No free rides.



It is most definitely not good business sense to work to shut down what is essentially a massive force multiplier for their own advertising efforts, great word of mouth and a reassurance to new comers that here is a world where the players care about the game, in fact I can hardly think of a more cretinous way to go about 'protecting their Ip.'

Topless Trader
Gallente
Hashimoto Corporation
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:12:00 - [426]
 

Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.

Miss Bombshell
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:12:00 - [427]
 

Can someone clarify what the bolded text means?

Will corporation and alliance websites require a commercial license?

No, private websites do not need a license. However, if you have an external facing part of the website that uses the EVE IP you will require a non-commercial or a commercial license, depending on your use.

Khavi Kitamatsu
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:12:00 - [428]
 

Edited by: Khavi Kitamatsu on 15/06/2011 21:12:24
You can't stop botting and are barely trying to, and now you want to ask players to agree to this commercial license ideal?

NOT!

I'll continue to donate "my money" to websites that make my enjoyment of your game tolerable and if I hear they bought into your little scheme I'll stop donating to them. If it wasn't for them I wouldn't even be playing your broken game that is full of cheats and bots!

Fix your own bed first CCP!

Ker HarSol
Minmatar
Zip - I
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:12:00 - [429]
 

LOL

Stupid me.

And I thought CCP would reward the most popular apps with $99 per year.

Hahaha

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:12:00 - [430]
 

Originally by: Lex Starwalker
Bottom Line:

EVE Online is an IP, and CCP is 100% within their rights to do this. It's good business sense. It's not right for others to make money off someone's IP without the owner of the IP being compensated. That's why we have copyright laws to begin with. This is the real world. No free rides.



Last night my friend and I were in a bar and he bought me a drink. I charged him £99 for a license to bring stuff to my table.

After all: this is the real world, no free rides.

Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:13:00 - [431]
 

Quote:
Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.


WHAT?

Quote:
2) Regarding this clause: Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license. I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.


SO if I'm a MERCENARY corporation I have to pay $100 to CCP to PLAY and create my own content in your SANDBOX?

That needs SERIOUS clarification.

So if I'm an EVE BANK I need to pay $100 to CCP for RUNNING AN EVE BANK?!

DO you want to kill this game?

You want to commercialize 3rd party apps, that's fine, but you want to force people to pay you to create CONTENT FOR YOUR GAME? That's absurd.

Revisit that statement heavily. Think of the consequences THOROUGHLY in a sandbox.

This is beyond comprehensible.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:13:00 - [432]
 

Originally by: Mynxee
I suggest before you get on your high horse and start thinking you can impose a developers program like, oh, say, Apple, you take a close look at what your similarly priced licensing arrangement can offer in comparison. You aren't even in the same ballpark. I think you have the line between reality and your make-believe universe a little bit too blurred for your own good.
…and to further build on that, the Apple dev community builds on a long history of (relatively) high-priced OSX shareware. Compared to the Windows side, there is an almost negligible amount of freeware and long-trial/nagware paid for apps — everyone does a 14days, then pay up kind of shareware instead. So these devs have long since learned how to recoup their costs and how to stay afloat even with Apple's (inevitable) cut.

What you're trying to do is essentially an immediate jump from the Windows freeware model to the Apple AppStore model, while having none of the clout or market size of either.

Majuan Shuo
Gallente
Sons Of 0din
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:14:00 - [433]
 

Wow CCP, how EXACTLY is this good news for 3rd party apps?

"GOOD NEWS EVERYONE, you now have to pay for something that was once free!"

"Why? Well because **** YOU that's why."

Rolling Eyes

If this goes through I will just go play SWTOR instead. Talk about biting the hand that feeds.

Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:14:00 - [434]
 

:whelp: by now any thoughts I can think of have been said.

$5 for a year-long license: not terrible.
$10 for a year-long license: pushing the boundry but still not god-awful.

$99 for a year-long license? Someone PLEASE take the bizdev department and put them in a town square and flog them.

Evanova Android
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:15:00 - [435]
 

Originally by: Mal Plox

Capsuleer, please come back!


Now that this business license deal is being clarified, I will just leave that there for you...

http://evanova-mobile.blogspot.com/

Once the API site is back to stable after all the recent DDOS miseries, a few more testing and it'll be yours. Initial feedback based on the screenshots will be appreciated.

Nitinol
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:16:00 - [436]
 

Am I gonna need a license to use the API for software I don't distribute? Confused

Varo Jan
Caravanserai Consulting
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:17:00 - [437]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas
So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate! ShockedShockedShocked

Don't be silly. This is EVE. People are outspoken in their responses to blatant stupidity. Yes, much is mannerless - but you only have yourselves to blame for nurturing that environment.

Originally by: CCP Atlas
Much corporate speak.

This is not the place for inane corporate speak. You [CCP] are normally capable of communicating in language the player base uses. So try this:

Sorry, guys. We really, really screwed up here. We're withdrawing this blog immediately. We'll get back to you with a new blog once we've discussed the topic with key developers such as Chribba.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:20:00 - [438]
 

Originally by: Tippia
and to further build on that, the Apple dev community builds on a long history of (relatively) high-priced OSX shareware. Compared to the Windows side, there is an almost negligible amount of freeware and long-trial/nagware paid for apps — everyone does a 14days, then pay up kind of shareware instead. So these devs have long since learned how to recoup their costs and how to stay afloat even with Apple's (inevitable) cut.

What you're trying to do is essentially an immediate jump from the Windows freeware model to the Apple AppStore model, while having none of the clout or market size of either.


TLDR: Apple CAN ask developers for a license because:

- Apple actually HAS the market for them. How many would pay for Eve Income Analyzer? With 44 downloads (see counter) I am certainly going to be RICH!
- Apple DELIVERS while CCP overpromises.
- Apple GIVES SDK and tools, CCP added ZERO.


------------------


Also what baffles me: free open source is DEAD in EvE.

- If you host it on SourgeForge, then money is being made therefore the weakest link (guess who?) has to pay $99.

- If you host on any free blog or website they always come with Google ads (to stay free you know) and then someone has to pay $99. Who? Blogspot? Noooo, the poor lolEvEdev!

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:20:00 - [439]
 

I'm sorry CCP but what the hell have they put in your water the past week, you have gone bat **** ******ed.

Shaemell Buttleson
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:21:00 - [440]
 

Edited by: Shaemell Buttleson on 15/06/2011 21:24:15
Originally by: Selnix
Originally by: CCP Atlas
So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate! ShockedShockedShocked


Just a thought... If there weren't gaping holes in your game, maybe there wouldn't be all of these 3rd party programs to begin with. How about a small list of 3rd party apps which are completely free to use which don't have a viable counterpart in-game that could be adversely affected by this crap...

  • Jump Planners - Have fun figuring out what systems are in range or what a nice route may be using only in-game mechanics


  • EFT - Have fun buying one of everything just so you can find out what fits will fit whilst still not knowing how decent the tank may be or how much dps you will do


  • EVEMON - Please enjoy planning out your skills a day at a time


  • Corp/Alliance/Battleclinic Killboards - To all of the ***gots who have whined about killboards ruining their happy little carebear existance, I guess this one is a good one


I'm sure there are plenty of others which people find invaluable to them to make a broken game playable but I thought I'd just stick with the highlights. If you don't plan to add some functionality to your game, perhaps you shouldn't hinder the progress of those who want to do so.



The corps and alliances of EvE might get the shaft as well since loads of them want at least a partial API to get access on their forums!



SHAME ON YOU CCP

Maybe the bughunters and the guys who regularly test on SISI should get payed if you want to go the whole mercenary route!


Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:21:00 - [441]
 

Dear CCP,


Are you out of your minds? You make a game interface that is unplayable in the long term without free, voluntarily created 3rd party tools like EFT, dotlan and Evemon, and yet you want to effectively shut those services and services like it down? You realize this would make your compelling, yet poorly polished game effectively unplayable? What is wrong with your business team? What are you smoking? How much money could you possibly make from these licenses that would offset making your game one no sane person would subscribe to? You're already niche enough. Do you really want a game that is only playable by those hardcore enough to survive with the in-game map?

Tex Bloodhunter
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:24:00 - [442]
 

Edited by: Tex Bloodhunter on 15/06/2011 21:25:03
Like the general idea regarding apps. Just make sure to keep it simple. Make it free. Get rid of licensing issues and ways to make real money. Let players offer services to other players in exchange for ISK. This is fun and lucrative for app developers, practical and beneficial for service-using players and in the general interest of CPP as it enriches EVE. Plain, simple, good :)

Oh and keep the current API freely accessible the way it is please

Jaddar
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:27:00 - [443]
 

Edited by: Jaddar on 15/06/2011 21:28:51
What are you all on about, people? This sounds like a children quarrel, not like a grown-up constructive criticism and negotiation session! "CCP said what?! I'm gonna take my toys and go away, go kill yourself, CCP!"

First of all, you all seem to have missed the part in which they ask for constructive criticism. They said nothing is set in stone. Everything can be changed. "What do you guys think we should change about it and how?" Can we really not have a conversation about it instead of kicking and screaming?

And what's all this bull about CCP wanting to rip off people and get rich off of this?! They make $6M / month! Even if they would get a thousand developers to pay for this license, it would bring an additional 0.2% income!

I propose we try to get a little organized, stop kicking and screaming, and actually compile a list of grievances. What is it about the license as presented that we don't agree with? I for one think that indeed, you should only pay for the license if you make money out of your product. So I propose that we should see a version of the license with this changed. If the change does not look good, we can further amend it. Does this really sound so out of place?

Majuan Shuo
Gallente
Sons Of 0din
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:27:00 - [444]
 

yeah i dont want to hear CCP devs say "9 pages of hate"

when they have gone without adding an ingame EFT-like or EVEmon-like feature for 8+ years

well i for one wont pay forcibly, not for eft or evemon... and since a lack of those services makes eve nigh unplayable, i wont be playing eve either.

Vanessa Vansen
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:27:00 - [445]
 

Worst idea since I'm (EVE) online!

Seems like you want to get rid of your 3rd party developers.


Natalia Kovac
Minmatar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:28:00 - [446]
 

Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 15/06/2011 21:29:57
Originally by: Majuan Shuo
yeah i dont want to hear CCP devs say "9 pages of hate"

when they have gone without adding an ingame EFT-like or EVEmon-like feature for 8+ years

well i for one wont pay forcibly, not for eft or evemon... and since a lack of those services makes eve nigh unplayable, i wont be playing eve either.


Agreed. I'm not gonna pay for EFT or Evemon now when they've been free their whole existence. No thanks CCP.

Also I guess every alliance that uses the API for fetching and verifying killmails has to pay $99 a year? Lol ok.

MegabitOne
Caldari
The Black Ops
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:29:00 - [447]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas
1) The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement.
Kinda slow, these guys, no? Taking 6 years to catch up with what their player-base is doing....

2) Regarding this clause:
Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.



How's this for a business plan:
suppose X and Y are players, the friend plays WOW Embarassed so that we are sure he doesn't know anything about a good game, mkay?
1) X gets a friend to develop an application based on the eve api
2) X puts Y's name all over so he gets the Flak Laughing
3) X strikes a deal with Y so Y sends X the billions of isk (should be more than 3.5b isk/year to iron out the $99/year you're charging)
4) You can't sue the friend since he doesn't know about EVE EULA's and Licences since he plays WOW and since the API's are on the public net, they're considered to be free for all
5) You can't sue Y because it's not his application
6) You can't sue X cos Y is giving X cash out of his own free will
7) They can all pull the 'plausible deniability' trick on you if you try to sue cos none of them will be violating anything Laughing

8) Can you spot the flaws in YOUR set-up? Rolling Eyes

Originally by: CCP Atlas
Donation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope

This is even worse than the business guys! Takes you SIX years to realize that donations and adds are something that could bring CCP's business in danger? Amazing!

One question left: in order to charge people for something, you will have to provide a SERVICE. What is the service you provide? 'The API' is not the right answer since that is free. Or is the general idea to no longer provide the API for free and to make applications have to 'login' to the API in order to use it? This seems the only real reason to me to start charging hard cash for something that has been free before... If this is the case then I guess it will only take someone about 5 minutes before taking out a license and providing his own API for free to others; all the others connect to that guy, no more cost, only donations to the guy providing his own API, guy pays you $99 every year. Everybody happy, no?

GKO
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:30:00 - [448]
 

hey I heard your money sniffling CEO makes funny tweets, let him enjoy that for a bit longer. Of course we will pay whatever fee you put on us to use your excellent software and we would even pay for extending your software with our work because you are busy making money with us.

:ccp:

Nooto
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:31:00 - [449]
 

still cant believe it and im stunned in what ccp has turned into


not having all those micro transactions, paying for whatnot turned eve into that special position it had amongst other games and now it completely turning into an nightmare. its insane how you're ruining such a great product. and that i tell you as a customer from very first days of eve

GhostKiller1
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:31:00 - [450]
 

how about instead of figuring out ways to charge players and developers more money to play eve effectively, you figure out what the hell is wrong with the server after the latest ddos attack, that causes my client to crash when trying to do anything significant other than ratting???


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