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Zamiq
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:39:00 - [391]
 

Originally by: Ashireka
It's fairly obvious that a large part of this came out the Capsuleer collapse. Capsuleer wanted to start making money off the project, but CCP wasn't in a position to negotiate a large number of individual small-time deals with individuals, so they've built up a very simple template for dealing with people who want to make money from CCP's systems. And now people are upset because they want a token license fee for it? They probably spent more on legal fees putting the agreement together than what they'll earn back from those fees in the next two years.

Running the API for all these third-party apps is not free. There is a cost to CCP, in terms of bandwidth, processing power, even engineering support. They've done it because it helps build the community, and a bigger, committed community means more subscriptions, which means more money. It's an investment on their part.

Now you have people who want to make money off software that is heavily dependent on CCP's API. Sure, these people are investing a lot of time into building the software, but at the end of the day, the cost of running that software is on CCP. EVEMon would be near worthless without the API.

CCP is spending money to make the API work for people. If people are going to try to make money off things that are dependent on the API, that means CCP is spending money to help other people make money, and that's just not good business sense.

Take a look around at other software services, like Google Maps. Google supports "the small guys", you can use the services for free -- up to a point. And then you have to start talking licensing agreements and licensing *fees*. I can tell you, I seriously doubt Google's offering $99/year for unlimited revenue potential based on their services.

There are some valid points; if payment is entirely in-game currency, seems like that should fall under "non-commercial use", and perhaps that'll go that way. Donation-based support is tricky; how do you monitor that people aren't "requiring donations" for additional features, etc (thus making it a commercial use).

And don't forget, it has been noted that the non-commercial license is *free*. They only want their $99 if you're making money off their work. Seems more than fair.

-Ash





What you say is fine and everyone understands that CCP has a cost associated with 3rd party apps. The problem is that many of these apps fill the void in the game, a void that either should have been filled by CCP or by allowing custom UI and add ons. Granted the add ons function might cause more issues but to say that the game is playable without a 3rd Party Fitting app or a 3rd Party Skill planning app is simply a lie.

Frozen Guardian
Registered Amateur Mathematicians
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:40:00 - [392]
 

So...for the one time donation for a few million every few months will cost me $100 a year?

I've spent more time coding and supporting the POS Tracker than playing EVE in the past year. Now you want me to give YOU money to allow me to continue developing an application that supports your game...just so I can ask for a few million to help support the development. Instead of playing EVE I am coding an application for your game. I would never ever want to charge corps/alliances real money for this. That would just be the biggest **** move ever. In fact, you(CCP) should be giving ME a plex every month for supporting and continual development of an application that has been downloaded and installed by several hundred corporations/alliances to make their gaming experience better. You should be paying other sites like EVE-Kill, OOE, EVE-Files, EVE Commander, EVE-Marketdata, and etc for providing their services to better your game.

If you(CCP) are unable to provide the service yourself, you shouldn't ask anything in return for people who are making applications and asking for donations or even isk payments. If CCP created a site or tool just like lets say Out of EVE then sure, go ahead and ask for money because your own time and effort has been spent and people should be using the built-in service. If however people want a different version they can go elsewhere but the developer does have to pay you a fee.

So in short, leave us(developers/coders/service providers/etc) alone unless you yourself can provide the same service these applications/sites are.

-FG

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:40:00 - [393]
 

I am very disappointed by the Dev reply.

Hate thread? Hello?? Those are the guys who made EVE what it is today, they formed the community, they brought more people to EVE (and kept them there) than all the CCP marketing campaigns together. Where would EVE be without Eve-files, EFT, Evemon, ISK Guide, Forums, all those people who care?! And you call them Haters???

WTF


That being said...


Why can't CCP keep donation and ad-driven sites free from a commercial license and give them the free license? (The whole free license stuff is anyway really an idiotic idea, it is like forcing Picasso to have a membership in the local artisan union before he is allowed to paint, it kills totally the spirit and dedication)

What is the point in forcing donation and ad-driven sites to buy a $100 license? I just don't get it.

I can even not understand that CCP wants a commercial license at all! What is the point in that??

The more people some app are using, THE BETTER IT IS FOR CCP!

If that app costs money, to hell, why not?! What damage is done to CCP by this? No damage at all! They PROFIT from this, the more professional apps we have, the better it is, the better the community thrives.


CCP - give EVERYONE a free license. You don't have additional costs, you don't have problems, you just have a big fat happy playerbase!


And CCP said it itself, the license fees won't cover anything, maybe just the costs of the licence fee program itself. My advise: GET RID OF IT!


Give everyone a free license



CCP has no loss, the player have no loss. Only win here.

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:41:00 - [394]
 

CCP why must you get this **** wrong every time you do it?

Why don't you state "Here is a draft" at the start?

Why don't you contact the people like Chribba, get an NDA, and float this stuff past them?

You're an 8+ year old company, there really is no excuse for these types of blunders any longer. It TRULY shakes the confidence of the community when you get these things so wrong.

I recognize the truly difficult bind you are in, 10 months ago people were screaming for transparency, and when you give it, we respond with torches. However, your company got itself in this bind and needs to treat these interactions through blog announcements are extremely important events which are proof read, torn apart and put back together before they are released.

Sheesh

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:41:00 - [395]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 15/06/2011 20:45:22
Originally by: Erichk Knaar
Serious question:

How does this affect people writing open source eve based libraries/etc for interfacing with the API, etc.

Lets say I developed a web tool that tracked corporate wallet stuff. I GPL it, and put the code up for anyone to download and deploy themselves. I am not running the service for anyone, I don't even use it myself, and the code is open and free for anyone to download run themselves.

Somebody deploys the code, and asks for paypal donations to cover the running costs from his corp.

Who needs to pay the $100?
The person who makes "commercial use" of the API, in this case, the person who receives the donations.
Originally by: Zamiq
Exactly, and what happens if the corp that is hosting their own stuff has multiple web apps? Pretty much every corp has their own KB, MiningBuddy and a bunch of other tools. Now they have to pay 300$ a year? If not can they use add support? If yes, then why is 3rd party developer being penalized and not 3rd party user.
This is a much more interesting question: how broad is the license? Is it one per developer (and if so, what counts as an individual developer entity) or is it one per product (and if so, what counts as an individual product entity)?

Amber Villaneous
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:42:00 - [396]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas
3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.


What service? I have seen nothing that indicates something new will be added. Or do you mean the SERVICE of granting a liscence?ugh

How about the old addage "If it ain't broke don't fug with it"

Ynot Eyob
Minmatar
Nisroc Angels
The Obsidian Front
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:43:00 - [397]
 

Edited by: Ynot Eyob on 15/06/2011 20:45:18
Crist...

Alliances uses API to verify people on their forums, so now every resonable alliance / corp in game who use the API, so they dont manuel have to admin 300+ user,s have to pay 99$ a year on top.

In that case CCP serious has to come up with a better admin system for corp management and alliances, and give the space for a closed forum :(

Its already now an admin nightmare to keep your security as tight as posible, but now you have to pay even more.
EVEs becomming a TO exspensiv hobby.


Emilya Tatsuki
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:44:00 - [398]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki

RMT Angle


RMT guyes didn't care about the EULA before, they don't care about the EULA now, they're not going to care about the EULA tomorrow.

These "licensing" threats you've speculated will do nothing. RMTs will shift their hosted sites to a jurisdiction that will look at CCP with a blank stare.


The EULA has nothing to do with this. It's not a legally binding contract like a License is.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:45:00 - [399]
 

Originally by: Valdamerca
Originally by: Nardman
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.


Originally by: Sorakage

You need us more than we need you. Do NOT charge the people who are covering up your incompetence.




It bears repeating, again, and again. I'm still questioning whether or not this is a troll. CCP employees cannot be this ****ing dumb.

Your damage control does not impress.


this

Tutskii
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:47:00 - [400]
 

Originally by: Valdamerca
Originally by: Nardman
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.


Originally by: Sorakage

You need us more than we need you. Do NOT charge the people who are covering up your incompetence.




It bears repeating, again, and again. I'm still questioning whether or not this is a troll. CCP employees cannot be this ****ing dumb.

Your damage control does not impress.


+1

Posting in a Troll thread.

10/10 CCP. Here is where you say that you did it for the lulz and this, Ishukone Scorpions, and all the "dig as far as you can into your communities pockets" bull**** is just a terrible, terrible joke.

A funny thing happens when you try squeezing blood out of rocks as hard as you can.

The only blood you get, is yours, coming from your broken hand.

-A newish player, less than a year old, incredibly disilusioned with you.

Nooto
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:48:00 - [401]
 

srsly wtf is wrong with you guys over there at CCP?

there are a ****load of developers who are spending ages of their free time inventing great services like evemon and whatnot for free wich boosts the player experience by far and all you do is to charge them 100 bucks a year?

no srsly that must be some sort of a very very very bad joke Evil or Very Mad


wtf did you think about?

Nymblar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:50:00 - [402]
 

All this over Capsuleer? Wow.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:51:00 - [403]
 

Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki

The EULA has nothing to do with this. It's not a legally binding contract like a License is.


There is one operative word in the acronym "EULA", feel free to go discover it. Hint, it starts with "L".

Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:52:00 - [404]
 

Originally by: Zamiq


1. Considering that a lot of players need to rely on applications such as Evemon and EvEHQ in order to plan out their training skills, optimize their implants and remapping and learn which skill books they need in order to pilot a specific ship, will CCP introduce an in-game alternative should these apps become unavailable due to the licensing fees?



Don't be surprised if they die off and CCP release their own CCPEFT for a price.


Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:52:00 - [405]
 

Wow, the amount of fail/bad news and decisions concerning EVE has been staggering this month. Do you have any sane people working at CCP anymore or is this a case of specific scrum teams having too much concentrated stupid in them and you having no oversight on their decisions?

Kronnek McBryde
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:54:00 - [406]
 

Edited by: Kronnek McBryde on 15/06/2011 20:54:51
Fine, the BizDev team has come up with a plan and specific details about what they want to do. One thing in a business report that is probly the most important for a user of your service, how does this impact our customers?

I see how it benefits CCP but again, what were the motivations behind it other than profit?

An explination would make me feel better about this HUGE shift in the community.

Will this stop hacking/cheating/stealing? Will this make the server faster? Will this make the system more secure? Will we get more features? Will people writing utilites make money without having to charge the end user a fee that makes playing this game unreasonable? Is this a step to try to save the company because of previous bad business decisions?

As I see it, this change brings nothing good or new to the community that has supported Eve Online for so long and to the players as a whole.

Please explain how this helps?

Nooto
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:54:00 - [407]
 

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:55:00 - [408]
 

Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 15/06/2011 21:10:46

Originally by: CCP Atlas
Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers.


Constructive criticism incoming:

If all you need are the payment details make it a $10 commercial licence or less. There are a lot of services that are not run for-profit (real world profit) that would have serious issues justifying an additional $99/yr cost. If you guys don't do this for the money but to empower 3rd party devs, drop the licence fee significantly from $99.

Keep in mind that a lot of people run services just for the hell of it - for the desire to make Eve a more interesting place (see Chribba's post on page 6). We don't run services to profit from them: any ingame donations or even ISK fees that there might be are just there to help us out a little in our hobby: playing Eve. I get the distinct impression your BizDev department doesn't understand the Eve 3rd party development community, it's drives and motives and it's significant positive impact and added value on YOUR product. Yes there are people looking to monetize their apps to justify the effort to make them (like Capsuleer), and it's great you're giving them that option. But don't force significant sums on developers (many of whom might be just students) who aren't doing it for the real world profits.

Out of curiosity, what 'costs of the service' are there that you need to justify? I don't see you guys adding anything new and you will need to keep the API running anyway? So I can't see any new costs to justify.


And as others said, you really should've gone to the CSM with this. It's hard to believe CCP keeps making these same mistakes year after year after year.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:56:00 - [409]
 

Originally by: Soi Mala
Originally by: Zamiq


1. Considering that a lot of players need to rely on applications such as Evemon and EvEHQ in order to plan out their training skills, optimize their implants and remapping and learn which skill books they need in order to pilot a specific ship, will CCP introduce an in-game alternative should these apps become unavailable due to the licensing fees?



Don't be surprised if they die off and CCP release their own CCPEFT for a price.




I'm sure it would be every bit the runaway success that EVE Voice was. Or Evegate.

(Is Evegate still going? If it is, does anyone actually use it? I never hear anyone refer to it ever, and I've never found a reason to use it yet)

Tutskii
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:57:00 - [410]
 

Originally by: Valdamerca
Originally by: Nardman
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.


Originally by: Sorakage

You need us more than we need you. Do NOT charge the people who are covering up your incompetence.




It bears repeating, again, and again. I'm still questioning whether or not this is a troll. CCP employees cannot be this ****ing dumb.

Your damage control does not impress.


+1

Posting in a Troll thread.

10/10 CCP. Here is where you say that you did it for the lulz and this, Ishukone Scorpions, and all the "dig as far as you can into your communities pockets" bull**** is just a terrible, terrible joke.

A funny thing happens when you try squeezing blood out of rocks as hard as you can.

The only blood you get, is yours, coming from your broken hand.

-A newish player, less than a year old, incredibly disilusioned with you.

Holy One
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:58:00 - [411]
 

Deffo allow Plex payment.

That way players can donate isk or plex to 3rd party developers directly, who can then purchase plex and reverse redeem them to cover licensing costs.

Mister Rocknrolla
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:59:00 - [412]
 


Apologies...still reading through the thread, but my question: is there an enforcement provision somewhere? Will the API server require credentials/license check of some sort before it will allow any IP/app to access it? How would it distinguish between a private app and a commercial app?


Dani Leone
Gallente
Positively Idle
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:59:00 - [413]
 

Great news for Developers? lmfao.

Do you realise that you are basically shaking down the very people who make up the bulk of the reason eve is as playable as it is?

That you are looking to shut down what is essentially free advertising on a huge scale?

Because some 'awesome' ****** with an MBA thinks its a good idea perhaps?

Man, you gotta keep those guys away from the Jeffries.

Zamiq
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:59:00 - [414]
 

Originally by: Frozen Guardian
So...for the one time donation for a few million every few months will cost me $100 a year?

I've spent more time coding and supporting the POS Tracker than playing EVE in the past year. Now you want me to give YOU money to allow me to continue developing an application that supports your game...just so I can ask for a few million to help support the development. Instead of playing EVE I am coding an application for your game. I would never ever want to charge corps/alliances real money for this. That would just be the biggest **** move ever. In fact, you(CCP) should be giving ME a plex every month for supporting and continual development of an application that has been downloaded and installed by several hundred corporations/alliances to make their gaming experience better. You should be paying other sites like EVE-Kill, OOE, EVE-Files, EVE Commander, EVE-Marketdata, and etc for providing their services to better your game.

If you(CCP) are unable to provide the service yourself, you shouldn't ask anything in return for people who are making applications and asking for donations or even isk payments. If CCP created a site or tool just like lets say Out of EVE then sure, go ahead and ask for money because your own time and effort has been spent and people should be using the built-in service. If however people want a different version they can go elsewhere but the developer does have to pay you a fee.

So in short, leave us(developers/coders/service providers/etc) alone unless you yourself can provide the same service these applications/sites are.

-FG



There you go. Perfectly worded from one of the 3rd Party devs. They already have to spend time and effort on the app in order to fill a gap in the game and now you want them to spend time and effort trying to recoup additional $99.

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:59:00 - [415]
 

CCP, once again you give the appearance that you skim the surface of other corporations' initiatives for ideas or just pull random **** out of your ass without apparently any proper business analysis before laying it on the community and creating much unnecessary bad feelings, rage, and lolwut facepalming. I suggest before you get on your high horse and start thinking you can impose a developers program like, oh, say, Apple, you take a close look at what your similarly priced licensing arrangement can offer in comparison. You aren't even in the same ballpark. I think you have the line between reality and your make-believe universe a little bit too blurred for your own good.

Seriously, what a way to twist the knife of cluelessness and ingratitude in the vitals of a community that is really starting to lose faith.

Captain Eflame
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:00:00 - [416]
 

details need to be refined and better presented for people to make a better decision on the program they way it is put in the dev blog i think is being miss understood and does not come across as a good thing or anything that improves the game... or alternatively it is presented as intended and someone in the bizdev team needs to be slapped.

Hexman
The Ankou
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:02:00 - [417]
 

Edited by: Hexman on 15/06/2011 21:04:15
This reminds me of the time CCP asked the players to vote for them for "Best MMO" of the year or something like that, just when lag was at a real bad level.

I thought you guys couldn't top that as a "BAD F'N IDEA" but you never seize to amaze me.

EDIT: Server's kinda slow ain't it? YARRRR!!

Lex Starwalker
Amarr
Lone Star Exploration
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:03:00 - [418]
 

Bottom Line:

EVE Online is an IP, and CCP is 100% within their rights to do this. It's good business sense. It's not right for others to make money off someone's IP without the owner of the IP being compensated. That's why we have copyright laws to begin with. This is the real world. No free rides.

Hexman
The Ankou
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:05:00 - [419]
 

Originally by: Lex Starwalker
Bottom Line:

EVE Online is an IP, and CCP is 100% within their rights to do this. It's good business sense. It's not right for others to make money off someone's IP without the owner of the IP being compensated. That's why we have copyright laws to begin with. This is the real world. No free rides.



Of course it's their right. Nobody's contesting that (I think). People are just saying it's a really really bad idea.

Col Crunch
Caldari
Industrial Guardians of New Eden
New Eden's Industrial Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:06:00 - [420]
 

Quote:
Will donations require a commercial license? Yes, for donation supported websites you will require a commercial license.

Why would you need a commercial license for this? My corp website has a donation like system on it (Shattered Crystal Support your corp program), however it is NOT a commercial venture therefore I should not need a commercial license.
Quote:
Will corporation and alliance websites require a commercial license? No, private websites do not need a license. However, if you have an external facing part of the website that uses the EVE IP you will require a non-commercial or a commercial license, depending on your use.

Does the shattered crystal thing count, cause I have a support your corp thing from them on there.
I will NOT pay $99 to allow people to DONATE to my website in any way. A donation program does not constitute commerciality.


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