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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:21:00 - [361]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas
Regarding this clause:
Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.


I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.


Please do so. I don't think anyone objects to people who make for-profit Eve stuff(iPhone apps, etc.) paying a fee. But people who don't even cover their server costs being expected to drop an extra C-note a year on this is ridiculous, and that's the part that has everyone up in arms.

Also, what does this $99 buy a developer? Is it just a rights purchase, or are you going to give them extra tools and support as well? I'd wager there'd be somewhat less rage involved if you had any goodies in this message, and not just "lol, pay us more monies for something you've been doing for free since 2003".

Emilya Tatsuki
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:21:00 - [362]
 

Edited by: Emilya Tatsuki on 15/06/2011 20:21:35
Originally by: Innominate
Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki

Really? $99 a year from a handful of people? I probably make more in a month a work.

so if even 100 people (and I feel thats a stretch) do this, its 9.9k a year.
yeah thats a HUGE bottomline increase.



If you consider the number of people who WOULD pay it, you're completely right. If you consider the number of people that would have to pay it to continue what they're doing you're off by a couple orders of magnitude and the dollar amount becomes meaningful. (i.e. If you throw in an unrealistic expectation of the number of people willing to pay it)


Even if ONE THOUSAND people did this it would be 100k a year.
compared to 72MILLION?

oh my god you are right! its a .1% increase
a whole ONE TENTH of a percent increase, my god those greedy bastardsRolling Eyes

Seriously guys, Math is your friend.

Ruziel
Minmatar
Twilight Military Industrial Complex
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:22:00 - [363]
 

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats


Quoted for truth.

You are taking people who care enough about the game to take your woefully under-documented API and sometimes incredibly convoluted data dump and wrestle them into applications that soothe the pain of using your terribad in-game interface and offer them without requiring anything in return, and want to charge them.

This is just the news I need after putting in a good day of coding on my own site, which has yet to launch, because of yesterday's shutdown. Rolling Eyes

Now, if they want to charge me for a commercial license for this site just because I want to receive (but not require) ISK donations for my work, there's a chance the site won't see the light of day.

I'm all for requiring the commercial license for anyone that requires real world money for their application/website.

I don't even really have a problem requiring it for developers require ISK for for their application/website.

I'm undecided about requiring it for advertisement supported sites, but I'm leaning towards no, because I highly doubt that any of them make enough cash to cover operating costs, so all you are doing in this case is adding to their burden.

Where I draw the line is going after sites like the one I've been planning, and the model that some of the larger existing sites (dotlan evemaps for one) follow. Offering a useful service to the eve community, and requiring nothing in return. Placing the onus on the users to compensate us in some manner, if they feel moved to do so.

While I'm probably not considered a veteran in the same light as people who have been playing the game since its inception, I feel that I'm fairly invested in the game at this point. I've stuck out and even supported the changes in the game during my three year tenure.

But the words and actions coming from CCP lately have severely sapped my confidence in the game. The last week or so has been a slap in the face, and today as Chribba put it, a punch in the gut.

The fact that you are ramming Incarna/CQ down our throats despite earlier promises that it would be entirely optional. The whole vanity ship for nothing but Aurum debacle (which you've now backpedaled on), which would have screwed with industrialists like myself. And now this travesty.

For the first time since I started playing, I'm to reconsider my involvement in the game. CCP, this thread should serve as a wake-up call to you. If you turn the 3rd party developer community, those of us that are more invested in the game than the average player, against you, may have dire consequences.


As a sidebar:

Also, will this herald a new form of griefing? A website that does not solicit for donations, but someone in game makes a one to the character(s) running the website with the name of the site in the comment. Will CCP suddenly come calling with a $99 bill?

Reset Password
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:23:00 - [364]
 

Originally by: Don Pellegrino

HOW HARD IS IT TO ASK THE CSM FIRST?



This topic actually came up during the 5th CSM but it was nothing like this.


Holy Cheater
Monks of War
DarkSide.
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:23:00 - [365]
 

Developers can't sell anything for real money, but require to pay 100$ for some silly license. This is ridiculous and insane.

Emilya Tatsuki
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:23:00 - [366]
 

Originally by: Kerrisone
Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki


This is exactly what it is, a way to kill RMT
Once a license is required, they can sue these websites out of existence

Since banning them ingame isnt doing crap, making their businesses require a license
will do two things:

Arrow1. the ones who dont want the License will get sued

Arrow2. the ones who do, will have given then information to CCP.

Its a drastic step due to the legit and helpful people are getting hurt too but I hope
it works out well, otherwise its gonna hurt them alot more than RMTers

Don't try and make sense of this bull****. CCP wants money, thats all it is.


Really? $99 a year from a handful of people? I probably make more in a month a work.

so if even 100 people (and I feel thats a stretch) do this, its 9.9k a year.
yeah thats a HUGE bottomline increase.

I mean its not like 400k active users paying $15 a month adds up to much (72 MILLION)
but yeah, 9.9k, they are just ROLLING IN THE MONEY

Rolling Eyes
Hey, CCP is the one that is charging for this. Any charge at all = Them wanting money.


How dare a business want money.
And if they are just "Wanting money" increases their income by 9.9k is pretty **** poor.

They are preparing to take legal action, and this is the set up for it.
The collateral is huge (IE ****ed off customers)

but IF it works out well, they might forgive them a little.
either way its a huge risk, and CCP has the balls to try it




How about when they kill the license program and no one is allowed to continue their service or support of the products they've made? Yet CCP has information on what those programs did, basically able to make it themselves as everyone HAS to 'register' their product with them? CCP might be 'nice' and buy them out for a pittance but they don't have to. So CCP takes over those services and charges extra, or maybe AURUM payment only.




Yeah, No.
That is the most :tinfoil: reply ive seen yet.
Just because its a fad to hate on CCP doesnt make them evil.



Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:24:00 - [367]
 

Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki
Edited by: Emilya Tatsuki on 15/06/2011 20:21:35
Originally by: Innominate
Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki

Really? $99 a year from a handful of people? I probably make more in a month a work.

so if even 100 people (and I feel thats a stretch) do this, its 9.9k a year.
yeah thats a HUGE bottomline increase.



If you consider the number of people who WOULD pay it, you're completely right. If you consider the number of people that would have to pay it to continue what they're doing you're off by a couple orders of magnitude and the dollar amount becomes meaningful. (i.e. If you throw in an unrealistic expectation of the number of people willing to pay it)


Even if ONE THOUSAND people did this it would be 100k a year.
compared to 72MILLION?

oh my god you are right! its a .1% increase
a whole ONE TENTH of a percent increase, my god those greedy bastardsRolling Eyes

Seriously guys, Math is your friend.

If you think that 72 million is accurate, you're a bleeding idiot. If you then think that is all profit, you're an even bigger idiot. If you then still think 100k a year is anything to be sniffed at, well there's not much hope for you.

Delta Jax
NixCraft
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:24:00 - [368]
 

Edited by: Delta Jax on 15/06/2011 20:24:32
CCP, You think this a joke or something.. "9 pages of hate" is nothing if the 3rd party developers turn their apps off..

Stop biting the hand that feeds, I will not buy any plex, and as a ceo, I will put a decree out to boycott plex buying.

Enjoy your plex ban

Everseeker
Caldari
Northgate
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:24:00 - [369]
 

I know... instead of wardeccing some corp...
Have everyone in your corp send them 1M isk each
Then sic CCP on them so they have to pay $99.00 cash

THEN WarDec em :)

The Economist
Logically Consistent
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:25:00 - [370]
 

Oh dear.

Words cannot express the sheer quantity of fail encapsulated within this dev blog.

Another well thought out plan from ccp.

Pytria Le'Danness
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:25:00 - [371]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas
So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate! ShockedShockedShocked


What the frell did you expect?

The dev post says "Every web page related to EVE will now require a license. Those of you who only do it for laughs get off relatively easy for now, those of you who try to offset their real-life cash costs by adding adverts will now have to face another fee that is almost as high as the hosting fee for a general web site."

If I run a corp web site that simply says "Buy GTCs from XYZ using this affiliate link" I am using CCP's IP for commercial purposes according to your dev blog and have to pay an additional $99/year. ON TOP of the hosting costs, ON TOP of the time I spend, ON TOP of the monthly payment for EVE.

I know it's well within your rights to do so, but... do you really want to **** your players like that?

What happened to the CCP that I knew a few years ago? Sad to see it die like this.

Otocinclus
Minmatar
Project Nemesis
Moar Tears
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:25:00 - [372]
 

Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki


This is exactly what it is, a way to kill RMT
Once a license is required, they can sue these websites out of existence

Since banning them ingame isnt doing crap, making their businesses require a license
will do two things:

Arrow1. the ones who dont want the License will get sued

Arrow2. the ones who do, will have given then information to CCP.

Its a drastic step due to the legit and helpful people are getting hurt too but I hope
it works out well, otherwise its gonna hurt them alot more than RMTers

Don't try and make sense of this bull****. CCP wants money, thats all it is.


Really? $99 a year from a handful of people? I probably make more in a month a work.

so if even 100 people (and I feel thats a stretch) do this, its 9.9k a year.
yeah thats a HUGE bottomline increase.

I mean its not like 400k active users paying $15 a month adds up to much (72 MILLION)
but yeah, 9.9k, they are just ROLLING IN THE MONEY

Rolling Eyes
Hey, CCP is the one that is charging for this. Any charge at all = Them wanting money.


How dare a business want money.
And if they are just "Wanting money" increases their income by 9.9k is pretty **** poor.

They are preparing to take legal action, and this is the set up for it.
The collateral is huge (IE ****ed off customers)

but IF it works out well, they might forgive them a little.
either way its a huge risk, and CCP has the balls to try it




This is exactly what I figured when I saw the devblog, been searching through the posts to see if anyone else had the same idea. I seriously doubt they're actually going to charge people like EVEmon and EFT for the things they do, it most likely will just be to try and put down RMT.

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:26:00 - [373]
 

BizDev = Marketing. Marketing is the single greatest source for really bad ideas in any corporation I’ve ever been directly involved with, associated with, or studied. The department draws egotistical, self-assured, incompetent idiots like no other department. With that in mind, you really can’t blame the “BizDev” department for release of this first draft. Simply put, they should not be held responsible for release of this “first draft”. No one should expect better from them.

What I’d like to know is who IS responsible for not filtering or vetting the “bizdev” plan and releasing this completely unacceptable first draft plan. Anyone who knows anything knows you keep a muzzle on your marketing department and require any releases from them to go through a responsible executive with at least two gray cells to rub together.

Requiring a license for people to sell their apps for real life money……….I can see that. The rest is rubbish. Limit the license plan to those who wish to sell their work for real life money. If CCP’s plan was to troll the subscribers and app developers to see what the level of tolerance was, well done.

The only reason I didn’t go nuts on this is because I could see at first glance that it was going to be revised. There is no possible way for this first draft of the plan to work well for the subscribers, developers of the apps or CCP itself.

-Windjammer

P.S. I, like everyone else, know of accounts that will close if anything similar to the first draft of this plan is implemented. EVE players already send CCP a substantial amount of money for a game that is unusable without the free third party apps we all use. Apps, I might add, which CCP can’t seem to build themselves. I’m really tired of seeing CCP come up with these “how can we get more money from our existing customers” plans. Charge for EVE Voice? Charge for EVE TV? Worked out well, huh? People didn’t pay, didn’t use. Keep it up and soon they won’t pay for EVE or use it either.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:26:00 - [374]
 

Originally by: Agora Phobic
Where are the CSM? The blog doesn't mention that they were told about this.


They weren't told about this because this proposal came from the faction of CCP that hates and fears the CSM, and does their best to wish them away.

Honestly, this shows all the signs of the weapon-grade stupidity of that element of CCP that thinks they're two awesome to actually connect with the player-base. How hard would it be to present this basic idea in a useful and positive form? Trivially easy, in fact.

"New to EVE: The External Developer License. If you want to develop and app for EVE and charge real money for downloading it, then you can license our IP for $99/yr and as long as you and your app comply with the EULA you can make money from your skills and enrich yourself as you enrich the EVE community

Community sites that exist on ISK donations will not be affected as we have always maintained as a matter of legal fact that in-game items including ISK have no real world value.

Community app developers who wish to make their application free but give players the option to make donations up to no more than $5 can pay the $99 license fee and make their app available as a free download from the CCP site"

Valdamerca
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:26:00 - [375]
 

Originally by: Nardman
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.


Originally by: Sorakage

You need us more than we need you. Do NOT charge the people who are covering up your incompetence.




It bears repeating, again, and again. I'm still questioning whether or not this is a troll. CCP employees cannot be this ****ing dumb.

Your damage control does not impress.

Zamiq
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:26:00 - [376]
 

Originally by: CCP Manifest
Clarification post will be coming shortly. Just wanted to let ya'll know we know this thread needs it.







Awesome, we do need clarification. In the meantime consider clarifying the following issues too:

1. Considering that a lot of players need to rely on applications such as Evemon and EvEHQ in order to plan out their training skills, optimize their implants and remapping and learn which skill books they need in order to pilot a specific ship, will CCP introduce an in-game alternative should these apps become unavailable due to the licensing fees?

2. Since the game does not provide exact damage and dps numbers and a lot of other data that is available in EFT and EvEHQ, will CCP provide an alternative?

3. A number of POS tracking applications are invaluable to corporations and alliance charge with maintaining JB networks. Is CCP developing an in-game alternative should the 3rd party apps become unavailable?

Do you see a trend developing? As of right now, EvE is almost unplayable as an MMO without a myriad of 3rd party applications. Yeah, you can run L4 missions till you die without additional tools but for PvP, Sov Warfare and Sov Logistics it is impossible to play the game without EvEMON, EvEHQ, Forum API verification, POS Tracking and MiningBuddy. All these apps fill the void that you as a developer have failed to fill. Now, you want to add another layer of complexity to developing, hosting and supporting these apps. Job well done.

InUrJita CheckinUrPrice
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:28:00 - [377]
 

What is the sound of CCP poasting?

*slap*

Seriously, find a nice cliff and drop your bizdev team off it, because they are doing you no favors. The last thing you need is to cheese off third party devs.

Erichk Knaar
Caldari
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:28:00 - [378]
 

Serious question:

How does this affect people writing open source eve based libraries/etc for interfacing with the API, etc.

Lets say I developed a web tool that tracked corporate wallet stuff. I GPL it, and put the code up for anyone to download and deploy themselves. I am not running the service for anyone, I don't even use it myself, and the code is open and free for anyone to download run themselves.

Somebody deploys the code, and asks for paypal donations to cover the running costs from his corp.

Who needs to pay the $100?

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:29:00 - [379]
 

Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki

RMT Angle


RMT guyes didn't care about the EULA before, they don't care about the EULA now, they're not going to care about the EULA tomorrow.

These "licensing" threats you've speculated will do nothing. RMTs will shift their hosted sites to a jurisdiction that will look at CCP with a blank stare.

Khanid Voltar
Night's Dawn Investment Fund
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:31:00 - [380]
 

This dev blog really epitomises how low CCP have sunk.

/disappointed, but also unsurprised

Pizzutz
Gallente
Capital Industries Research And Development
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:32:00 - [381]
 

$99 a year to have a tranquility status block on the alliance site homepage next to an adwords banner...

I think I'll just remove the block. It was cool, but not worth it, besides it kills my load time when they remove themselves from the internet due to lulz..

Killboard is going to be a pain. The google ads just covered the server cost, but certainly won't cover server cost, plus what I assume is my second $99 a year I am supposed to pay. Then again, if I'm reading this right, then I'm not allowed to have ads on my killboard right now anyway? For the life of me, I cannot find the section of the ToS that prevents me from having ads on my killboard..

Ashireka
Minmatar
Robot Pirate Ninja Corporation
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:33:00 - [382]
 

It's fairly obvious that a large part of this came out the Capsuleer collapse. Capsuleer wanted to start making money off the project, but CCP wasn't in a position to negotiate a large number of individual small-time deals with individuals, so they've built up a very simple template for dealing with people who want to make money from CCP's systems. And now people are upset because they want a token license fee for it? They probably spent more on legal fees putting the agreement together than what they'll earn back from those fees in the next two years.

Running the API for all these third-party apps is not free. There is a cost to CCP, in terms of bandwidth, processing power, even engineering support. They've done it because it helps build the community, and a bigger, committed community means more subscriptions, which means more money. It's an investment on their part.

Now you have people who want to make money off software that is heavily dependent on CCP's API. Sure, these people are investing a lot of time into building the software, but at the end of the day, the cost of running that software is on CCP. EVEMon would be near worthless without the API.

CCP is spending money to make the API work for people. If people are going to try to make money off things that are dependent on the API, that means CCP is spending money to help other people make money, and that's just not good business sense.

Take a look around at other software services, like Google Maps. Google supports "the small guys", you can use the services for free -- up to a point. And then you have to start talking licensing agreements and licensing *fees*. I can tell you, I seriously doubt Google's offering $99/year for unlimited revenue potential based on their services.

There are some valid points; if payment is entirely in-game currency, seems like that should fall under "non-commercial use", and perhaps that'll go that way. Donation-based support is tricky; how do you monitor that people aren't "requiring donations" for additional features, etc (thus making it a commercial use).

And don't forget, it has been noted that the non-commercial license is *free*. They only want their $99 if you're making money off their work. Seems more than fair.

-Ash




Ripperljohn
Caldari
Ore Mongers
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:33:00 - [383]
 

i'll pay the 99$ if i get something valuable back from it.

hell, even a proper Gamescom appearance would be nice.

ANYTHING.

but it seems you rather want me to unsub.

fair enough, i guess.

Tutskii
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:33:00 - [384]
 

Originally by: Valdamerca
Originally by: Nardman
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.


Originally by: Sorakage

You need us more than we need you. Do NOT charge the people who are covering up your incompetence.




It bears repeating, again, and again. I'm still questioning whether or not this is a troll. CCP employees cannot be this ****ing dumb.

Your damage control does not impress.


+1

Posting in a Troll thread.

10/10 CCP. Here is where you say that you did it for the lulz and this, Ishukone Scorpions, and all the "dig as far as you can into your communities pockets" bull**** is just a terrible, terrible joke.

A funny thing happens when you try squeezing blood out of rocks as hard as you can.

The only blood you get, is yours, coming from your broken hand.

-A newish player, less than a year old, incredibly disilusioned with you.

Delta Jax
NixCraft
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:34:00 - [385]
 

Seriously, If this is about being able to take down RMT sites with IP infringement.

The MPAA already try it this way, last i heard.. it hasn't been working so well for them.

Mr LaForge
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:34:00 - [386]
 

Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.



Nardman
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:34:00 - [387]
 

Originally by: Valdamerca
Originally by: Nardman
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.


Originally by: Sorakage

You need us more than we need you. Do NOT charge the people who are covering up your incompetence.




It bears repeating, again, and again. I'm still questioning whether or not this is a troll. CCP employees cannot be this ****ing dumb.

Your damage control does not impress.


What damage control are you referring to?

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:34:00 - [388]
 

Edited by: Malcanis on 15/06/2011 20:34:50
You know Hilmar, if you're paying the bizdev guy who came up with this idea, let's say... $40,000 a year? Then you could fire him and set the money you saved against providing free licenses to 80 app developers for 50 years.

Just a thought.

Zamiq
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:35:00 - [389]
 

Originally by: Erichk Knaar
Serious question:

How does this affect people writing open source eve based libraries/etc for interfacing with the API, etc.

Lets say I developed a web tool that tracked corporate wallet stuff. I GPL it, and put the code up for anyone to download and deploy themselves. I am not running the service for anyone, I don't even use it myself, and the code is open and free for anyone to download run themselves.

Somebody deploys the code, and asks for paypal donations to cover the running costs from his corp.

Who needs to pay the $100?



Exactly, and what happens if the corp that is hosting their own stuff has multiple web apps? Pretty much every corp has their own KB, MiningBuddy and a bunch of other tools. Now they have to pay 300$ a year? If not can they use add support? If yes, then why is 3rd party developer being penalized and not 3rd party user.

adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:38:00 - [390]
 

Tell your Biz department to go ************************************************************************************ themselves and get the hell out of CCP and the gaming world.



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