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Florestan Bronstein
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:55:00 - [301]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas
So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate! ShockedShockedShocked


I think you misspelled valuable customer feedback there...

Sarina Berghil
Minmatar
New Zion Judge Advocate
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:56:00 - [302]
 

First of all biz dev departments needs to be on the first exploration ship to populate unknown space.

Originally by: CCP Atlas

Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers.



My suggestion is to give support to 3rd party developers who do it out of pure enthusiasm. One type of support could be well documented and maintained API access. Those people are providing a service for you, its not the other way around.

I doubt you will see a sprawling industry based on commercial 3rd party applications. There may be a few that make it, but I think you may end up crushing the hobbyists in the process. I don't think that would be a good tradeoff. I know that bizdevs and lawyers don't understand the concept of idealism and doing things for free, but it happens all the time in the world of gaming and software.

Akira Zendragon
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:56:00 - [303]
 

So $99 covers what costs, exactly? The API is already there and free. (And without warranties...)

Identity verification would be a one-time thing. I can't really get what other "service costs" you mean.

Unless of course you mean the API, in which case I think at least a minimum level of support and warranties would be in order.

Look at Apple's iOS developer program. For $99/yr Apple gives you development tools and SDKs, tons of documentation and sample code (free, actually), some tech support and they'll host the downloads for your app, and so on...

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:56:00 - [304]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas
So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate! ShockedShockedShocked

Anyway, thank you all for your input so far. Based on your comments, I feel I should step in to clarify a few things and address some concerns.

1) The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement. We published it to get feedback from you guys. This is not the final word on the matter and we want to build this service up with you so that it's fair and empowers you to build these applications and services which better the game.

2) Regarding this clause:
Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.


I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.

3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.

4) Nothing is set in stone. We're willing to reconsider anything you deem unfair about the program. Donation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope. Whether that license needs to be $99 per year is something we might reconsider.

Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers.

Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity. Rest assured this will change to suit your needs and our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE and not to throw obstacles in your way.



Why do you even think you HAVE a CSM?

Seriously, have you guys not learned your lesson yet? I'll spell it out for you in short 1-syllable words, real simple, just for you:

DOES YOUR GREAT IDEA DIRECTLY DO STUFF TO EVE PLAYERS?

RUN YOUR GREAT IDEA PAST THE CSM.

IF THEY SAY THAT THERE WILL BE RAGE THEN IT COULD BE THAT YOUR IDEA IS VERY BAD AND YOU SHOULD FIX IT.

THE CSM WILL HELP YOU FIX YOUR BAD IDEA.

THEN YOUR BAD IDEA WILL BE LESS BAD OR IT MIGHT EVEN BE GOOD WHO KNOWS?




Emilya Tatsuki
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:57:00 - [305]
 

Originally by: Abinadi9
The more I think about this it's all about RMT....

You can have ISK if you pay cash for it....





This is exactly what it is.
Once a license is required, they can sue these websites out of existence

Since banning them ingame isnt doing crap, making their businesses require a license
will do two things:

Arrow1. the ones who dont want the License will get sued

Arrow2. the ones who do, will have given then information to CCP.

Its a drastic step due to the legit and helpful people are getting hurt too but I hope
it works out well, otherwise its gonna hurt them alot more than RMTers

MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:57:00 - [306]
 

Edited by: MailDeadDrop on 15/06/2011 20:00:30
Originally by: CCP Atlas
Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity.

Tell "Biz Dev" to get off their lazy asses and come face the fire directly. It is unreasonable for you to take the community backlash for their statements, and inefficient to have you serve as a middleman.

Edit: After reading Malcanis' reply (above), I'd like to revise my statement. Have "Biz Dev" get off their lazy asses and run their ideas past CSM. Any ideas that make it past the CSM are good candidates for a blog.

Seriously, the dev blog should *NOT* be a "this is a work in progress" -- that's why the CSM exists!

MDD

iLLeLogicaL
The Red Circle Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:57:00 - [307]
 

What the **** is this ****...
First walking in stations and now this?
CCP, ffs look at what you're doing to your game.

Mother Fokker
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:58:00 - [308]
 

In 8 years of EvE online has CCP EVER brought out some brochure that even remotely resambles a manual?

NO.

Yet a Hungarrian guy and his team make a booklet named ISK_## and it beats the living crαp out of any other manual for games i ever laid my eyes on. (Falcon 4.0 included, and that is a feat.)

Has CCP done that?

NO.

It was done by one of our best members of EvE community.
If you had this silly idea 4 years ago this man-team would never most probably had taken the effords to make it.

Really now. Charging others for having the privvilege for working For you?

CCP.

Stay the hεll far from volcanic Ashh. It is BAD for your brain cells.

CHeers to all.

Sig Sour
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:58:00 - [309]
 

CCP needs to hire a PR Consultant.

Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:58:00 - [310]
 

Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki
Originally by: Abinadi9
The more I think about this it's all about RMT....

You can have ISK if you pay cash for it....





This is exactly what it is.
Once a license is required, they can sue these websites out of existence

Since banning them ingame isnt doing crap, making their businesses require a license
will do two things:

Arrow1. the ones who dont want the License will get sued

Arrow2. the ones who do, will have given then information to CCP.

Its a drastic step due to the legit and helpful people are getting hurt too but I hope
it works out well, otherwise its gonna hurt them alot more than RMTers

Don't try and make sense of this bull****. CCP wants money, thats all it is.

Joe SMASH
You Got A Purty Mouth
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:58:00 - [311]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Originally by: woddel
Originally by: Joe SMASH
As a show of force that most 3rd party devs do NOT like this rule. I think we should figure out a day where all Eve Online 3rd party sites get taken offline. This will show the community what it will be like if CCP gets this in place. For those 24 hours, the Eve community (voted best in the MMO world!) goes quiet and CCP will (hopefully) begin to see their many mistakes with this new set of rules.


i'm in with www.eve-commander.com and agents.eve-commander.com...


--------------------------


I am in with the following:


Here is the list of open to everyone services that I will have to shutdown

EvE Emergency Trust PLEX Charity initiative when RL disasters happen (featured on Fanfest 2011 videos, donated > $4000 to Japanese)
Official EvE thread

Hosted on
Vahrokh.com official sub-site

EvE Technical Analysis (finance)
Official EvE thread

Hosted on
Vahrokh.com official sub-site

EvE Public Audits Archive (Market Discussion investments)

Hosted on
Vahrokh.com official sub-site

EvE Public Investmens Records (Market Discussion investments)

Hosted on
Vahrokh.com official sub-site


EvE Charting Service
Official EvE thread

Hosted on
Vahrokh.com official sub-site

NEISIN free app
Official EvE thread

Hosted on
Vahrokh.com official sub-site

EvE Income Analyzer (trading / sales analysis graphs and statistics)

Hosted on
Vahrokh.com official sub-site





Awesome!

Dracnys
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:59:00 - [312]
 

Edited by: Dracnys on 15/06/2011 20:03:45
This is how I read the devblog:

Quote:
CCP Atlas has some great news for 3rd party developers in his latest dev blog.


Great CCP, what's your great news?
*Click on Link*
A wall of text with the headline "Monetizing 3rd Party Apps". Ok I have no idea what you mean with this. Do you want to make money or do you think 3rd party developers can earn money?
Quote:
tr.v. mon·e·tized, mon·e·tiz·ing, mon·e·tiz·es
To establish as legal tender.
To coin (money).
To convert (government debt) from securities into currency that can be used to purchase goods and services.
Cha-Ching.

Wow now I know what monetizing means, thanks a lot. Now, who is this guy thinking cha-ching?
Quote:
Starting this summer you will be able to charge people for usage of your applications, websites and services for EVE Online.

Who would want to do that? I certainly don't want to pay for 3rd party apps. Download that new market order software? 5 Dollars. Update character in your skill-plan app? 0.50 Dollars. Now this won't happen because the people developing the software don't do it to earn money but because they like helping the community and I highly doubt that many would pay for a service or app.

Quote:
Highlights

Simple process - Sign up on a webpage, get started straight away
Inexpensive - $99 per year, no other fees
Developer-friendly - Very few restrictions
Open-ended - You can charge subscription fees, receive donations, sell your app in an app-store and more
Non-commercial websites and apps will now require a (free) license


Highlights. Highlights of what? Is anything of this any good? Is there any value provided by CCP? 99 Dollars per year for what? For getting permission to charge somebody for 3rd party services? CCP was developer friendly before, we know that. But that's no highlight, that's just doing nothing. Why is it an advantage if non-commercial websites and apps require a free license?
Quote:
Rules and rights but nothing new except charging for permission to charge RL money.

So where is the value that you provide? Continue searching.
Quote:
Will corporation and alliance websites require a commercial license?
No, (...)

At least this.
Quote:
Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?

Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.

Will website ads require a commercial license?

Yes, for ad-supported websites you will require a commercial license.
Will donations require a commercial license?

Yes, for donation supported websites you will require a commercial license.

HOLY CRAP! Does this mean that everyone who asks for donations or puts ads on the website has to pay? For the great ability to charge RL money for their services which they won't because of the reasons mentioned above? So this does really mean that people that work their ass of to improve the game for all players are CHARGED to do so? CCP, is that you? The company that lives off a game which is mostly played because of its great community? You DO realize that this is what makes EVE, right? That the sandbox doesn't end with the game but is extended all over the internet?

Quote:
Why charge for the license at all?

That's my question. Better have a good answer.
Quote:
The licensing fee is there to partially cover expenses from this initiative and more importantly, we need to charge a fee so that we get proper non-spoofable information about the applicant. We have kept the fee as low as possible and hope that the $99 fee is low enough to not dissuade serious developers from participating in the program.

Why does it cost 99 Dollars to note a name? This is zero value.

Quote:
I'm sure we will have plenty to talk about in the discussion thread. :-)

Yes we have.

Lederstrumpf
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:59:00 - [313]
 

Edited by: Lederstrumpf on 16/06/2011 14:41:05
Content deleted due to http://tinyurl.com/closingforum

Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:00:00 - [314]
 

CCP, why do you even bother having feedback threads?

Seriously, why do you even bother, when you know, and we know, and you know that we know you're going to push ahead with it anyway? You ignored the people who told you factional warfare needed to be fixed. You ignored the opinions of players who told you race-locking art assets such as clothing and hairstyles in Carbon was a terrible idea. You ignored four-fifths of your consumer base who don't want microtransactions.

How in the hell do you expect us to believe you'll give a damn about what we say in this thread?

Salene Gralois
K-2
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:00:00 - [315]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas

Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity. Rest assured this will change to suit your needs and our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE and not to throw obstacles in your way.



Really? No obstacles? Then fire the damn biz dev.
A new level of stupid has been reached. Congratulations.

Swren1
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:01:00 - [316]
 

Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
CCP Atlas has some great news for 3rd party developers in his latest dev blog. Read all about the new business license and monetizing 3rd party apps



It's crap, stop waisting time for this and focus on what people actually want. That will make you more money in the end.

Ballface
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:01:00 - [317]
 

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats


I'll just leave this here =)

Helicity Boson
Amarr
The Python Cartel.
The Defenders of Pen Island
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:02:00 - [318]
 

You guys over there at CCP are seriously mentally impaired.

Seriously.

SERIOUSLY.

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:02:00 - [319]
 

Thanks for the response CCP Atlas. It sounds like you're all taking this feedback seriously and are willing to make changes as necessary. Unlike the other whiners on here who'll cry no matter what you guys say, I for one appreciate the willingness to change your trajectory on some of the issues with this proposal.

Emilya Tatsuki
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:03:00 - [320]
 

Edited by: Emilya Tatsuki on 15/06/2011 20:05:01
Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki
Originally by: Abinadi9
The more I think about this it's all about RMT....

You can have ISK if you pay cash for it....





This is exactly what it is.
Once a license is required, they can sue these websites out of existence

Since banning them ingame isnt doing crap, making their businesses require a license
will do two things:

Arrow1. the ones who dont want the License will get sued

Arrow2. the ones who do, will have given then information to CCP.

Its a drastic step due to the legit and helpful people are getting hurt too but I hope
it works out well, otherwise its gonna hurt them alot more than RMTers

Don't try and make sense of this bull****. CCP wants money, thats all it is.


Really? $99 a year from a handful of people? I probably make more in a month a work.

so if even 100 people (and I feel thats a stretch) do this, its 9.9k a year.
yeah thats a HUGE bottomline increase.
and even one thousand people its 99,000. thats maybe 2 peoples salaries? if that.

I mean its not like 400k active users paying $15 a month adds up to much (72 MILLION)
but yeah, 9.9k, they are just ROLLING IN THE MONEY

Rolling Eyes

Alpheias
Euphoria Released
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:03:00 - [321]
 

IMO, CCP should be paying anyone that hosts a website or blog that practically endorses EVE because it is basically free advertising that CCP (and EVE) is getting.


Silvery Delight
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:04:00 - [322]
 

Edited by: Silvery Delight on 15/06/2011 20:05:18
Well, i'm happy they posted this dev blog. While i ****ing hate this ****ing stupid idea and hope it diaf for even thinking of this after 7-8 years of not-perfect but FREE API access, they've just made the decision to cancel my accounts for me ;D

I dislike the idea of dust on the ps3.I certainly didn't like the ships for cash idea, but i could of ignored it. But this? Charging people who actually improve your game more than you do it, you ****ing idiots, is ****ing stupid and while i love eve, i hope it goes down at is now. Why? So they can go down in history as the idiots who ruined a great game and forever be branded moneyhungry asshats.

Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:04:00 - [323]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas
S... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate! ShockedShockedShocked ...
More like utter disgust as well as some valid points made for why this initiative is absurd.

Do not denigrate your customers by summarizing their lucid and well-thought out comments into a simple emotional state.

Dsan
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:04:00 - [324]
 

WAIT!

So I can get this license, pay 99$ a year plus eve subscription and play my game as I like ?
Charging for stuff ingame, and host corp forums and such ?

Then when I wanna use evemon and other stuff I just have to pay them aswell, for their license...

Yeah, this sounds awesome.

Mitchello
B O R G
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:05:00 - [325]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas

1) The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement. We published it to get feedback from you guys. This is not the final word on the matter and we want to build this service up with you so that it's fair and empowers you to build these applications and services which better the game.



Please do not take this the wrong way, or personal, that is not how it is intended.

It is not very smart to say the least, to "dump" an announcement to any userbase without having made sure that you know what reception is going to be like.

A topic as sensitive as this, which you (CCP "the company") should instinctively realise and communicate on, should never be treated as an experiment.

There is a very simple reason for this. You sell a service. Your core currencies are those of belief and trust. When you do these things, you violate those currencies and deplete their reservoirs among user group types.

It does not take a genius to see how that is bad. You sell and keep on the basis primarily of that, no matter how much shiny is added on top, this is what doing business comes down to. Period.

If you cannot guarantee that you can stimulate, motivate, or guide reception and adoption, you should never take any step which compromises those two currencies. Ever. Period.

If you sold soup in a supermarket, you could get away with that indefinately. But you are selling a service model. What you do and say, is carried along forever. The specifics will be forgotten over time, but the sentiments and memories carry on, far outside existing userbases. In these days of social networking, transient media, and distributed communities you must never forget that the word of mouth that is your instrument, which grew your product, is not by definition the same as the concept of "drama sells" or "there is no such thing as bad publicity.

Why? You said it yourselves. EVE is real. It's so real, that it is life. It is an experience. When word of mouth reaches that treshold where it overshadows your own messaging (let's be honest, even if you hired half the gaming and advertising industry you would not be able to compete with the concept of social and other networking) you have a problem. Not just for EVE, but for the integrity of your brand.

Which, I am sure you are aware of, is what the currency of your enterprise is in capital and prospects.

So really, don't do these things. Just don't.

And please do not ever again (see CCP Zinfandel) experiment like this. Regardless of whether that was intended or not, perception defines reality so intention matters a lot less than the consequences. Taking the angle of "we wanted to get feedback" is wrong here. It does not match your presentation of the devblog, period. It is also the wrong angle for damage control, or even open communications.

Besides, you have a CSM, who heard nothing of you on this, if you really sought feedback. Ok fine, this CSM is not representative for the userbases of EVE, that is a shame, but so be it. But even then you have tools at your disposal. Live devblog, surveys, do a questionaire in the development section on these forums (or rather, since they are no longer representative for the actual eve community start passing word there to reach third party developers).

Sorry guys, the roundtable at fanfest, it touched quite specifically and constructively on the very issues that were put on the table in this blog as the next "stone tablet".

Please, this is not some personal playground anymore. You have an enormous potential here. But stop getting in your own way each time.




Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:05:00 - [326]
 

Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki
Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki
Originally by: Abinadi9
The more I think about this it's all about RMT....

You can have ISK if you pay cash for it....





This is exactly what it is.
Once a license is required, they can sue these websites out of existence

Since banning them ingame isnt doing crap, making their businesses require a license
will do two things:

Arrow1. the ones who dont want the License will get sued

Arrow2. the ones who do, will have given then information to CCP.

Its a drastic step due to the legit and helpful people are getting hurt too but I hope
it works out well, otherwise its gonna hurt them alot more than RMTers

Don't try and make sense of this bull****. CCP wants money, thats all it is.


Really? $99 a year from a handful of people? I probably make more in a month a work.

so if even 100 people (and I feel thats a stretch) do this, its 9.9k a year.
yeah thats a HUGE bottomline increase.

I mean its not like 400k active users paying $15 a month adds up to much (72 MILLION)
but yeah, 9.9k, they are just ROLLING IN THE MONEY

Rolling Eyes
Hey, CCP is the one that is charging for this. Any charge at all = Them wanting money.

Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:05:00 - [327]
 

Edited by: Chaos Incarnate on 15/06/2011 20:06:03
Originally by: CCP Atlas
So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate! ShockedShockedShocked

Anyway, thank you all for your input so far. Based on your comments, I feel I should step in to clarify a few things and address some concerns.

1) The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement. We published it to get feedback from you guys. This is not the final word on the matter and we want to build this service up with you so that it's fair and empowers you to build these applications and services which better the game.

2) Regarding this clause:
Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.


I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.

3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.

4) Nothing is set in stone. We're willing to reconsider anything you deem unfair about the program. Donation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope. Whether that license needs to be $99 per year is something we might reconsider.

Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers.

Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity. Rest assured this will change to suit your needs and our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE and not to throw obstacles in your way.



i'll try to be calm and constructive:

- It's not fair to lump in developers who provide 'free' services and ask for donations/use ads with people who are outright charging for them. I'm cool with you guys charging $99 to some guy who is selling his skilltraining iphone app for $5. I'm not cool with people like Chribba, the dotlan guys, etc being charged because they have a donate button. It would push them to either not accept any donations (which is stupid), or force them to start charging RL cash for access to all their services (which is also stupid)

-services which are isk-only shouldn't be charged anything at all.

Optional Patch
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:06:00 - [328]
 

First of all, let's clarify that this is not about the money for CCP. MT: Yes, This fiasco: No.

Some suggestions

1. Free development license: allows you to develop your service/website/app or deploy a non-profit version.
2. Nominal fee for ad-supported websites and services: One time $10 or $20. Developers who join will be listed on an "official" eve-hosted list of sites - give a little something back to the developer
3. "Whatever bizdev decides" fee for subscription apps/services: Honestly I don't see the point, but separating a pay-to-use app or service from the average website will inoculate CCP from some of the backlash.

Finally, please no more bull**** about how much it costs to support the service. We love to see the APIs and Static data dumps, it's why we develop services for EVE. If you don't like it shut them down.

Zachstar
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:06:00 - [329]
 

Your Bizdev team needs to have a long talk with admin. How could you all NOT EXPECT so much backlash from such as stupid idea. Was it when main addon devs spoke out where something clicked saying "Well golly gee maybe getting virtually nonprofit support sites to pay up isn't the best thing in the world as far as relationship with our customers?"

When a part of your company is doing serious damage to another part that is when the meetings on their skill and or termination of employment needs to happen. This isn't a damn fan game it is a commercial game that requires good relationships with customers in order to survive. If they can't handle that they need to go home or get another job.

You change NOTHING with the current system and ONLY start allowing those who WANT to make nonstandard profit to do so. Virtually none will anyway.

Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:06:00 - [330]
 

:excellence:

"going to be awesome"

"18 months"

"give us money"



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