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Optional Patch
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:42:00 - [271]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas

3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.



This is where the bull**** comes in. If you need to charge to justify the service and developers have the option of a non-commercial license then something doesn't add up.

You provide the service to foster the grassroots community. It's a cost of doing business, call it marketing. If you charge anything other than a one-time nominal fee you will most likely see a decline in developer support.

Lei Kuha
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:43:00 - [272]
 

If this goes through it will kill off most of the eve community sites and therefore kill off eve in my opinion...
Cant prove it yet because their isnt any evidence but that is whats going to happen because people do not want to pay for something that has been free for so long.

woddel
Gallente
Canis Industries Ltd
Avaricious Cartel
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:43:00 - [273]
 

Originally by: CCP Manifest
Clarification post will be coming shortly. Just wanted to let ya'll know we know this thread needs it.



well, i saved the original dev blog. i really wonder what you will 'clarify' by changing your dumbfolded (sorry for the expression) idea. just admit that you fxxxed up and will rewrite the whole thing with actually some thought put into it... be true to yourself and us !! the only and most important thing we ask from you.

woddel

Alizebeth Bequinn
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:44:00 - [274]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas


3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.




If it's not about making money and it'n not gonna make a big difference to your balance sheet then why not SUBSIDIZE THE FEE? HELL I GOT A GREAT IDEA! Why put a fee in the first place?

Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:44:00 - [275]
 

JUST YOU WAIT TILL LADY SPANK GETS HERE.


Ciar Meara
Amarr
Virtus Vindice
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:44:00 - [276]
 

Edited by: Ciar Meara on 15/06/2011 19:49:16

Originally by: Phoenus
Originally by: CCP Manifest
Clarification post will be coming shortly. Just wanted to let ya'll know we know this thread needs it.




Here comes the backpeddaling.

Let me guess, it was a 'misinterpretation' - like the Microtransaction mistake yesterday?


Hey Phoenus! Long time! Yeah the backpeddaling is epic this week.

I seriously think ccp need to rethink who runs the departements there and lay of the fermented sharkfin a bit.

You just don't launch this thing this way, and making Chribba mad... well thats just uncalled far.

Biz Dev are IDIOTS twice in one week, waiting for number three!


(felt good letting that out)

1 - SCORP-NOW magic Aurum button
2 - PAY-NOW Magic third party bane (they give us a desert and call it peace)
3 - Who knows, Aurum docking fees? Dragons for Aurum? ...


Reten Kip
Everset Dropbears
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:44:00 - [277]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas

1) The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement. We published it to get feedback from you guys. This is not the final word on the matter and we want to build this service up with you so that it's fair and empowers you to build these applications and services which better the game.


Yeah right. Show me one example of something you put into the game that was significantly different than the devblog that came out about it before hand.

Originally by: CCP Atlas

3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.


Bull. ****. The lowest you can go is $0. I don't believe that it costs you anything significant. Show me the accounting sheets.

Originally by: CCP Atlas

4) Nothing is set in stone. We're willing to reconsider anything you deem unfair about the program. Donation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope. Whether that license needs to be $99 per year is something we might reconsider.


See reply number one. Based on your history, this is already done and finalized with only minor tweaks to come.

Originally by: CCP Atlas

Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers.

Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity. Rest assured this will change to suit your needs and our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE and not to throw obstacles in your way.



When have you ever listened to your player base in the last two years? Why would I want to develop anything that helps your game when you're going to charge me for it?

Abinadi9
NerdHerd
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:45:00 - [278]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas
I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.


1) Maybe Biz Dev should actually play Eve. That might help.

2) How would you police this? If I use ... mining buddy on a third party website and isk is exchanged, are you now filtering my web traffic?

Originally by: CCP Atlas
3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.


What does this actually mean? You have to charge something for it? Why charge at all if it isn't about making money? Why not $29? You like Apple's moves for development, how about $29, or I don't know... i already pay for FOUR ACCOUNTS MONTHLY.....

Originally by: CCP Atlas
4) Nothing is set in stone. We're willing to reconsider anything you deem unfair about the program. Donation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope. Whether that license needs to be $99 per year is something we might reconsider.


Then stop the train before it heads off the cliff. It's not tricky, I want to see 1 "company" besides hosting companies & RMT that might begin to make money off of the eve plays.

Originally by: CCP Atlas
Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers.


Constructive Feedback: Build a developer community, start listening to them, features they need, then maybe you can start thinking about charging for a service. As off now it's incomplete and unsupported. Just a big "go frak yourself" move by some dweeb in "Biz Dev".

Originally by: CCP Atlas
Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity. Rest assured this will change to suit your needs and our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE and not to throw obstacles in your way.



Again... stop listening to "Biz Dev"... have them start developing and putting their time into things for free before they consider changing the game.

To everyone else....

The day this crap becomes official, is the day we should pull down ALL 3rd party pages.... Eve community wouldn't like that too much at all, and CCP will be to blame.

This is stupid. Not hate by the way, just people who ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME AND GIVE THEIR FREE TIME TO MAKE YOUR PROFITS INCREASE. "Biz dev" needs to wake up.

Abinadi9

iLight YourFire
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:45:00 - [279]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas
(...) stuff blaming biz dev (...)



Business Development is doing a great job: Business Destruction. If you want to develop your business that way, better convert CCP corporate capital to PLEX, buy a shuttle and undock in Jita. Faster, easier and less painfull.

First let your bizdev department look at API usage, and really analyze the tooling before they write stuff like this...

Very disappointed...

Lazarus Vex
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:46:00 - [280]
 

Will people who don't charge for applications need to pay as well?

Alpheias
Euphoria Released
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:46:00 - [281]
 

Shouldn't CCP pay us for game mechanics, content and features that are either a) broken b) not wanted c) poorly-considered ideas like this one?

Seems only fair.

Mitchello
B O R G
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:48:00 - [282]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas
So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate! ShockedShockedShocked



Please do not take this the wrong way, but this syndrome of "don't hate the player, hate the lolcustomer" really has to stop. We're at a point where the visible divide between perspectives is so stretched that it is becoming too hard to see whether there is a troll, a disconnect, or a misunderstanding in statement or reception =/

"9 pages of hate" ?

Is that how it is seen, or spoken of? It would not be the first time, truth be told we know it is a popular thing. I trust this was just a case of misunderstanding in use of language. I am honestly willing to take it as that, but please, it is just getting way too easy for masses who care to not have or take the time to do the same.

The key to EVE is the emotional connect that people make, to overcompensate in behaviour for the distance between pixels and people behind them. It should never come as a surprise that emotion is as such an element in communication.

Yes, that can go too far. But that is where CCP is fearless. If it goes too far, just say it, correct people, deal with it. But do not dismiss its origins, its perspectives or its message.

You know, just saying, CCP and Customers, we're all people.

noise
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:48:00 - [283]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas
So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate! ShockedShockedShocked

Anyway, thank you all for your input so far. Based on your comments, I feel I should step in to clarify a few things and address some concerns.

1) The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement. We published it to get feedback from you guys. This is not the final word on the matter and we want to build this service up with you so that it's fair and empowers you to build these applications and services which better the game.

2) Regarding this clause:
Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.


I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.

3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.

4) Nothing is set in stone. We're willing to reconsider anything you deem unfair about the program. Donation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope. Whether that license needs to be $99 per year is something we might reconsider.

Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers.

Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity. Rest assured this will change to suit your needs and our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE and not to throw obstacles in your way.



Thanks for the reply! I hope that the $99 for ISK is changed.

If we keep the $99 for ad supported website then we might have some more decent looking sites that aren't plastered with ads! Laughing

El Geo
Group 2
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:49:00 - [284]
 

+1

Hiryu Jin
noXCorp
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:49:00 - [285]
 

why is CCP trying so hard to drive this game into the ground?

Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:50:00 - [286]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas
So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate! ShockedShockedShocked

What the **** did you expect?!?

Lederstrumpf
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:50:00 - [287]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas
our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE


If that's your aim there's one rule to follow:

Create robust well documented APIs for people to use.

But so far you haven't been good at that which might lead to the logical conclusion you're either incapable of doing so or a liar.

Mintchip
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:51:00 - [288]
 

I think what would be most appreciated in a future explanation - would be the purpose of this? The motives for CCP wanting control on these things? I'd like to know what the whole point is - what CCP stands to gain, and what we as a community stand to gain. What does this ACTUALLY give us - explain better why this is "awesome news".

Why was this necessary? Was there some legality issues arising? If you can explain any of this, it would be read feverishly!

xoxo Mintchip

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:51:00 - [289]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas

3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.




What service? What exists now that did not exist yesterday? Someone being able to charge for something, for donations, for ads from yet another 3rd party? That already existed. You are not selling anything, this is a fee.

It's bad enough that you want a fee, but to try and spin it as some sort of value-add proposition is insulting.

Abinadi9
NerdHerd
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:51:00 - [290]
 

The more I think about this it's all about RMT....

You can have ISK if you pay cash for it....

It's not hate, it's RAGE. Rage at the stupid people in "BIZ DEV" .... There is no business to develop .... stop with AUR.... stop screwing with the game.... just FIX THE BROKE STUFF.... and by the way, 0.0 isn't broken....

I have a feature list that BIZ DEV might think about....

More APIs
Developer support
New content such as T3 ships instead of pink bunnies on a scorpion......

Abinadi9

cerbus
Minor Annoyance...
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:51:00 - [291]
 

I do feel for the people at CCP sometimes, they are infact Human.

but still...

Alpheias
Euphoria Released
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:53:00 - [292]
 

Originally by: Hiryu Jin
why is CCP trying so hard to drive this game into the ground?


Because CCP is trying break into what they perceive as the lucrative console market by leveraging their very nerd-driven IP.


thedeathmanschest
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:53:00 - [293]
 

Quote:
So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate!


really man what did you expect? YOu are talking currently about killing a lot of development which actually enrich your game.... I think i go back playing Hello Kittie Online.... Confused

GKO
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:53:00 - [294]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas
So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate! ShockedShockedShocked



Hell yeah, 9 pages of hate out of 1 page of your bull****. This is higher than average. Think about it. What could that mean?

Kerrisone
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:53:00 - [295]
 

Here's more feedback there should be a commercial license for apps and one for websites. Apps that are sold for real money might have a different price than apps that are free but accept donations, ie $20-50 compared to $5-10. The point being if you develop an app that is 'great' and likely to succeed, developer's opinion, you go for the license that costs more and gives you the opportunity to make money.

Websites that accept voluntary donations or use ads to offset costs for free to player content shouldn't need to pay for a license *IF* they do it should be cheap $5-10 or less. Websites that charge players to use them should pay more maybe $20-50 or $99.

The point being what the 'product' is, how it is distributed/access is granted to players, etc.

I still think if the cost per license isn't important than it should be much much cheaper, even cheaper than I've cited if it really doesn't matter to CCP.

Niraia
Seekers of a Silent Paradise
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:54:00 - [296]
 

"The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement."

Don't you think that releasing the final would've made more sense?

Further, since your "bizdev" department has little idea of what motivates the EVE third party development community, could someone with a clue (and a whip) maybe sit in on their meetings where bull**** like this is decided upon?

Ovidia Rhianon
Caldari
Mining and Industrial Services
The Irukandji
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:54:00 - [297]
 

Originally by: Zachstar
Clarification isn't going to do it. You said POINT BLANK that ad and donation supported websites will require a paid license. What is needed is an apology from CCP marketing and financial and a promise to ask the community before making changes like this.

We would have told you point blank that we do not want Ad and donation supported sites to have to pay a fee ONLY those that point blank require a fee or isk to use.

Please point me to the one person that said those that point blank require you to pay ISK should be charged an out of game fee?

Abinadi9
NerdHerd
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:54:00 - [298]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas
HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate! ShockedShockedShocked


No... it is frustration due to the arrogance and stupidity displayed by CCP.

Learn the difference.

Abinadi9

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:54:00 - [299]
 

Originally by: woddel
Originally by: Joe SMASH
As a show of force that most 3rd party devs do NOT like this rule. I think we should figure out a day where all Eve Online 3rd party sites get taken offline. This will show the community what it will be like if CCP gets this in place. For those 24 hours, the Eve community (voted best in the MMO world!) goes quiet and CCP will (hopefully) begin to see their many mistakes with this new set of rules.


i'm in with www.eve-commander.com and agents.eve-commander.com...


--------------------------


I am in with the following:


Here is the list of open to everyone services that I will have to shutdown

EvE Emergency Trust PLEX Charity initiative when RL disasters happen (featured on Fanfest 2011 videos, donated > $4000 to Japanese)
Official EvE thread

Hosted on
Vahrokh.com official sub-site

EvE Technical Analysis (finance)
Official EvE thread

Hosted on
Vahrokh.com official sub-site

EvE Public Audits Archive (Market Discussion investments)

Hosted on
Vahrokh.com official sub-site

EvE Public Investmens Records (Market Discussion investments)

Hosted on
Vahrokh.com official sub-site


EvE Charting Service
Official EvE thread

Hosted on
Vahrokh.com official sub-site

NEISIN free app
Official EvE thread

Hosted on
Vahrokh.com official sub-site

EvE Income Analyzer (trading / sales analysis graphs and statistics)

Hosted on
Vahrokh.com official sub-site



Dsan
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:54:00 - [300]
 

CCP Hellweek ?

First the lulzsec attack Tuesday, community **** off wedensday.

Good news soon ?


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