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Dutarro
Matari Munitions
The Fendahlian Collective
Posted - 2011.06.15 13:38:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Dutarro on 17/06/2011 15:36:14
The current war declaration system allows two, perhaps unintended consequences. 1) A 'high sec piracy' corp can remain continuously at war with up to three unwilling target corps/alliances for as long as they like. 2) A 'high sec industrial' corp can find itself the target of offensive war dec's, one after another, so that they are never at peace for an extended period of time.

The war dec system is meant to provide an occasional element of danger in the normally peaceful environment of empire, IMO. It is not meant to turn empire into low sec, for certain corps. Therefore, I propose the following change:

a) Every week that a corp remains at war, the cost of offensive, non-mutual war declarations against that corp increases by a factor of 1.5.

b) Every week that a corp is at peace, its war scaling factor decreases by a factor of 1.5.

This is to ensure that if a corp is forced into war unwillingly, they cannot be kept in that state forever.

EDIT: increased costs for the aggressor's time at war removed from the proposal


Danika Princip
Minmatar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.06.15 14:46:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Dutarro
The current war declaration system allows two, perhaps unintended consequences. 1) A 'high sec piracy' corp can remain continuously at war with up to three unwilling target corps/alliances for as long as they like. 2) A 'high sec industrial' corp can find itself the target of offensive war dec's, one after another, so that they are never at peace for an extended period of time.

The war dec system is meant to provide an occasional element of danger in the normally peaceful environment of empire, IMO. It is not meant to turn empire into low sec, for certain corps. Therefore, I propose the following change:

a) Every week that a corp remains at war, the cost of offensive, non-mutual war declarations, either issued by the corp or against the corp, increases by a factor of 1.5.

b) If both the attacking corp and the defending corp have been at war more than one week, the time scaling factors for both are multiplied.

c) Every week that a corp is at peace, its war scaling factor decreases by a factor of 1.5.

For example, if a corp that has been at war for 6 weeks declares war on one that has been at war for 8 weeks, the cost of the war dec is multiplied by (1.5)^(8+6) = (291.9). This is to ensure that war is an occasional event, not a way of life.




But for some people, it IS a way of life. Stop trying to ruin the sandbox for people who don't play like you.

Fournone
Posted - 2011.06.15 14:54:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Danika Princip
Originally by: Dutarro
The current war declaration system allows two, perhaps unintended consequences. 1) A 'high sec piracy' corp can remain continuously at war with up to three unwilling target corps/alliances for as long as they like. 2) A 'high sec industrial' corp can find itself the target of offensive war dec's, one after another, so that they are never at peace for an extended period of time.

The war dec system is meant to provide an occasional element of danger in the normally peaceful environment of empire, IMO. It is not meant to turn empire into low sec, for certain corps. Therefore, I propose the following change:

a) Every week that a corp remains at war, the cost of offensive, non-mutual war declarations, either issued by the corp or against the corp, increases by a factor of 1.5.

b) If both the attacking corp and the defending corp have been at war more than one week, the time scaling factors for both are multiplied.

c) Every week that a corp is at peace, its war scaling factor decreases by a factor of 1.5.

For example, if a corp that has been at war for 6 weeks declares war on one that has been at war for 8 weeks, the cost of the war dec is multiplied by (1.5)^(8+6) = (291.9). This is to ensure that war is an occasional event, not a way of life.




But for some people, it IS a way of life. Stop trying to ruin the sandbox for people who don't play like you.


But for some people, building ships and mining IS a way of life. Stop trying to ruin the sandbox for people who don't play like you

Dutarro
Matari Munitions
The Fendahlian Collective
Posted - 2011.06.15 15:02:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Danika Princip

But for some people, it IS a way of life. Stop trying to ruin the sandbox for people who don't play like you.


Usually, that is a good principle for EVE. Each player can play how they like in their corner of the sandbox, and if another player doesn't like it they move to another corner.

In this case, though, the targeted players have nowhere to go. Inexperienced players don't have the knowledge or in-game character skills to prosper in low or null sec. If they also become perpetual war targets in high sec, some will decide there is no place for them in EVE.

Personally, I would try to convince such people to evolve rather than give up, but not all will listen. If EVE gets a great influx of new players with Incarna, as hoped, a good number of them will be turned off from the game if they find themselves perpetual war targets of experienced PvPers the moment they leave the NPC starter corp. This might be exactly what some EVE veterans would like, but it is not in CCP's interest, nor the majority of current players.

Darryl Ward
Posted - 2011.06.15 15:45:00 - [5]
 

I support the principle in general, that war dec costs increase over time. Not necessarily by the amount suggested.

Swynet
State War Academy

Posted - 2011.06.15 16:30:00 - [6]
 

Support, but please stop calling those scum "pirates" just because you see an yellow icon with a skull.

Those are just, and nothing else but griefers.

Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.15 16:43:00 - [7]
 

I, too, enjoy my taxes increasing each year as I grow older instead of being just a levied percentage. Government needs my monies, yo!

Not supported, point on the doll where the mean warddec corp touched you.

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:23:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Swynet
Those are just, and nothing else but griefers.


Please explain to me what constitutes a griefer as per the context and rules of this game.



Salomei
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:05:00 - [9]
 

If I were a merc or pirate corp, I'd split the corp in two, find a way to keep assets between them sorted, and just alternate wardecs between them. Same effect, but now with more pain-in-the-ass.

Also, war is a way of life to some, same as popping rats and hauling stuff is to others.

Natalie Dorgiers
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:20:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Swynet
Those are just, and nothing else but griefers.

Why aren't they pirates? Part of pirating is figuring out how to get at the juicy innards of your ship. Some leave hisec to where more people are valid targets by default. Others declare war to turn you into a valid target. It's all right there in the rules of the game. Make them hurt for targeting you and you'll get fewer wardecs.

Dutarro
Matari Munitions
The Fendahlian Collective
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:31:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Salomei
If I were a merc or pirate corp, I'd split the corp in two, find a way to keep assets between them sorted, and just alternate wardecs between them. Same effect, but now with more pain-in-the-ass.


Of course, such hi-sec pirates could bypass part the scaling war costs by corp shuffling, just as those attacked can, even now, avoid war by corp shuffling.

Quote:
Also, war is a way of life to some, same as popping rats and hauling stuff is to others.


That is why EVE provides vast regions of space where CONCORD does not interfere in player vs. player combat, i.e. low sec and null sec. High sec is meant to be the safer zone for new/casual players, with less risk and less reward. Insisting that high sec should also be a non-stop war zone is rather dogmatic.

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:35:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Dutarro
Originally by: Salomei
If I were a merc or pirate corp, I'd split the corp in two, find a way to keep assets between them sorted, and just alternate wardecs between them. Same effect, but now with more pain-in-the-ass.


Of course, such hi-sec pirates could bypass part the scaling war costs by corp shuffling, just as those attacked can, even now, avoid war by corp shuffling.

Quote:
Also, war is a way of life to some, same as popping rats and hauling stuff is to others.


That is why EVE provides vast regions of space where CONCORD does not interfere in player vs. player combat, i.e. low sec and null sec. High sec is meant to be the safer zone for new/casual players, with less risk and less reward. Insisting that high sec should also be a non-stop war zone is rather dogmatic.


Except the reward for hi-sec is pretty high for the minimal risk involved.

Dutarro
Matari Munitions
The Fendahlian Collective
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:53:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Dutarro on 15/06/2011 18:53:17
Originally by: Baaldor


Except the reward for hi-sec is pretty high for the minimal risk involved.


I agree; however, war decs are a poor balancing mechanism. Wars are disproportionately directed at the weakest, least experienced corps, thus the players who can reap the least reward from high sec face the greatest risk. The real money makers in high sec are NPC-corp alts of veteran players, who have main characters in major alliances, and they are completely immune from war decs.

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:07:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Dutarro
Edited by: Dutarro on 15/06/2011 18:53:17
Originally by: Baaldor


Except the reward for hi-sec is pretty high for the minimal risk involved.


I agree; however, war decs are a poor balancing mechanism. Wars are disproportionately directed at the weakest, least experienced corps, thus the players who can reap the least reward from high sec face the greatest risk. The real money makers in high sec are NPC-corp alts of veteran players, who have main characters in major alliances, and they are completely immune from war decs.


What does bitter vet alts in NPC corps have to do with war decs? I though the topic was about player ran corps getting war dec'd.

Anyway, to keep this in line to determine if there is a real issue, what percentage of player corps, on average, are actually under a war dec? Out of those, how many are pve based?



Dutarro
Matari Munitions
The Fendahlian Collective
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:28:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Baaldor

Anyway, to keep this in line to determine if there is a real issue, what percentage of player corps, on average, are actually under a war dec? Out of those, how many are pve based?



My anecdotal experience, in-game and from reading the forums, is that war dec's are quite common now, especially for PvE corps with mostly new players. Only CCP would have access to statistically significant data, and they have not provided it to us players, or is there some fansite where all war decs are logged?

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:39:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Dutarro
Originally by: Baaldor

Anyway, to keep this in line to determine if there is a real issue, what percentage of player corps, on average, are actually under a war dec? Out of those, how many are pve based?



My anecdotal experience, in-game and from reading the forums, is that war dec's are quite common now, especially for PvE corps with mostly new players. Only CCP would have access to statistically significant data, and they have not provided it to us players, or is there some fansite where all war decs are logged?


To counter your anecdotal,in game and regular forum whoring, that war decs are pretty rare, as a matter of fact, some pve mission corps have never seen a war dec in their 2 years of existence.

I am pretty sure there are some data some where.

Dutarro
Matari Munitions
The Fendahlian Collective
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:24:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Baaldor
..To counter your anecdotal,in game and regular forum whoring, that war decs are pretty rare, as a matter of fact, some pve mission corps have never seen a war dec in their 2 years of existence...


You're right .. I was in such a corp a few years ago. Times seem to have changed. The two-year old corp you mention is, of course, now two years old and would not be an attractive war target any more.

The recent trend is, there are a lot more 'high sec piracy' corps now than there used to be, and they single out relatively new, easy-to-kill war targets. That interpretation is consistent with both your experience and mine.

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:46:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Dutarro
Originally by: Baaldor
..To counter your anecdotal,in game and regular forum whoring, that war decs are pretty rare, as a matter of fact, some pve mission corps have never seen a war dec in their 2 years of existence...


You're right .. I was in such a corp a few years ago. Times seem to have changed. The two-year old corp you mention is, of course, now two years old and would not be an attractive war target any more.

The recent trend is, there are a lot more 'high sec piracy' corps now than there used to be, and they single out relatively new, easy-to-kill war targets. That interpretation is consistent with both your experience and mine.



It is not the age of the corp, but the resources and numbers they have. Targeting small corps is not really all that fun, and useless in keeping your guys focused enough to log in and shoot others in the face.

The ones that do dec small corps, are normally just cutting their teeth on the game play to move on to better things.

If they stay in focused on dec'ing small corps, they will get bored and burn out or disband to a space rich pve corp that sicks mercs on them. And the first time one of those tiny little corps actually put up a fight, the defending corp will find them selves much better and stronger for it, and the dec'ing corp might just fade away.

Darwinism works both ways.

Most "pirates" as you call them, will rather dec a corp / alliance that is space rich to extort or provides a target rich environment.




Cyrus Doul
E0 Corp
Posted - 2011.06.16 02:33:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Dutarro
The current war declaration system allows two, perhaps unintended consequences. 1) A 'high sec piracy' corp can remain continuously at war with up to three unwilling target corps/alliances for as long as they like. 2) A 'high sec industrial' corp can find itself the target of offensive war dec's, one after another, so that they are never at peace for an extended period of time.

The war dec system is meant to provide an occasional element of danger in the normally peaceful environment of empire, IMO. It is not meant to turn empire into low sec, for certain corps. Therefore, I propose the following change:

a) Every week that a corp remains at war, the cost of offensive, non-mutual war declarations, either issued by the corp or against the corp, increases by a factor of 1.5.

b) If both the attacking corp and the defending corp have been at war more than one week, the time scaling factors for both are multiplied.

c) Every week that a corp is at peace, its war scaling factor decreases by a factor of 1.5.

For example, if a corp that has been at war for 6 weeks declares war on one that has been at war for 8 weeks, the cost of the war dec is multiplied by (1.5)^(8+6) = (291.9). This is to ensure that war is an occasional event, not a way of life.




I think it already does something like that. IIRC the system doubles the cost per week of the war.

Dutarro
Matari Munitions
The Fendahlian Collective
Posted - 2011.06.16 03:07:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Cyrus Doul
I think it already does something like that. IIRC the system doubles the cost per week of the war.


Not that I'm aware. This is the formula quoted by EVElopedia:

Quote:
The formula for calculating the cost is B * (N +1) * (W + 1). Where B = Base Price, N = number of wars you currently have, W = number of wars currently against the target corporation.


Time doesn't appear to matter.

Traffic Warden
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:50:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Swynet
Support, but please stop calling those scum "pirates" just because you see an yellow icon with a skull.

Those are just, and nothing else but griefers.


Because pirates never go after tankers, container ships and pleasure cruisers. They always demand 1v1's with navy warships right? Right?

Shandir
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:09:00 - [22]
 

Not supported, this is a bandaid to the wardec system - it need to be redesigned from the ground up as it does not currently provide interesting gameplay for both parties. (For neither party if they play sensibly)

The correct and reasonable way to respond to a wardec is to:
1) Avoid all combat except when you can...
2) Crush the enemy with overwhelming force.

The correct and reasonable way to enact a wardec is to:
1) Avoid all combat except when you can...
2) Crush the enemy with overwhelming force.

This discourages further wardecs, and makes your side look stronger - but it is not fun for either party. The only time it becomes interesting is when one party gets the 'overwhelming force' calculation wrong.

Currently wardecs are only well designed (ie. fun) if you wish to be wardeced.

Dutarro
Matari Munitions
The Fendahlian Collective
Posted - 2011.06.16 17:40:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Shandir
Not supported, this is a bandaid to the wardec system - it need to be redesigned from the ground up as it does not currently provide interesting gameplay for both parties. ...


Call me cynical, but the war dec system is not designed to provide interesting gameplay to both parties. It is designed for the attacking party to deprive the defending party of interesting gameplay. IMO, depriving other players of game enjoyment should not be a design goal, but that ship has sailed long ago.

The present proposal is intended to limit said reduction in game enjoyment to a finite time period, for any particular target corp.

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:05:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Dutarro
Originally by: Shandir
Not supported, this is a bandaid to the wardec system - it need to be redesigned from the ground up as it does not currently provide interesting gameplay for both parties. ...


Call me cynical, but the war dec system is not designed to provide interesting gameplay to both parties. It is designed for the attacking party to deprive the defending party of interesting gameplay. IMO, depriving other players of game enjoyment should not be a design goal, but that ship has sailed long ago.

The present proposal is intended to limit said reduction in game enjoyment to a finite time period, for any particular target corp.



You would think, that before signing up for a game, someone would understand the game play before the made a decision...right?







Dutarro
Matari Munitions
The Fendahlian Collective
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:07:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Baaldor

You would think, that before signing up for a game, someone would understand the game play before the made a decision...right?




Yes, of course. EVE is very complex, and for every tactic that affects one negatively (such as a war dec), there are numerous counter tactics (corp shuffling, join an alliance, hire mercs, move to low sec, hide in wormholes etc. etc.) We who have been in EVE for a while know this, and are not driven away from the game just because we are targeted by hostile players.

This proposal is more for the benefit of new players, who don't have access to or knowledge of their full range of options to deal with conflict.

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:55:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Dutarro
This proposal is more for the benefit of new players, who don't have access to or knowledge of their full range of options to deal with conflict.


Wait, there was less options and access to information back then when I first started stumbling around. Christ have the time you had to guess.The new guys now have much more depth and ease of information.

It actually requires less of a brain stem now to play this game then it did in the day. And if the new player has that much of struggle now keeping up then he/she/it should move on.

Dutarro
Matari Munitions
The Fendahlian Collective
Posted - 2011.06.17 04:17:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Dutarro on 17/06/2011 15:39:36
Edited by: Dutarro on 17/06/2011 04:18:07
Originally by: Baaldor
It actually requires less of a brain stem now to play this game then it did in the day. And if the new player has that much of struggle now keeping up then he/she/it should move on.


I think you mean cerebral cortex not brain stem... too much of the latter in EVE now if you ask me.

Back in the day there were no bored 6-year veterans to deal with. You can't compare today's new player experience to the one we had .. the game has changed too much.

EDIT: Irrelevant comment about moons deleted

Danika Princip
Minmatar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.06.17 08:36:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Dutarro
Edited by: Dutarro on 17/06/2011 04:18:07
Originally by: Baaldor
It actually requires less of a brain stem now to play this game then it did in the day. And if the new player has that much of struggle now keeping up then he/she/it should move on.


I think you mean cerebral cortex not brain stem... too much of the latter in EVE now if you ask me.

Back in the day there were no bored 6-year veterans to deal with. Back in the day you could find useful moons that weren't occupied by a death star. You can't compare today's new player experience to the one we had .. the game has changed too much.


What do moons have to do with new players?

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.06.17 12:17:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Fournone
But for some people, building ships and mining IS a way of life. Stop trying to ruin the sandbox for people who don't play like you


Industry/Trading/Mining - it's *all* pvp. Just not done with cannons... When you installed Eve-Online, you tacitly agree to war-decs, and suicide ganking.


*not* supported.......

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.06.17 13:06:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Dutarro
Edited by: Dutarro on 17/06/2011 04:18:07
Originally by: Baaldor
It actually requires less of a brain stem now to play this game then it did in the day. And if the new player has that much of struggle now keeping up then he/she/it should move on.


I think you mean cerebral cortex not brain stem... too much of the latter in EVE now if you ask me.


No, I meant brain stem, the basic stuff to control life support, the nervous system etc. Apparently you missed the point it takes very little to grasp this game. And the fact some can't....well you get the idea.

Originally by: Dutarro

Back in the day there were no bored 6-year veterans to deal with.


It is all relative the age and size of the population.

Originally by: Dutarro
Back in the day you could find useful moons that weren't occupied by a death star. You can't compare today's new player experience to the one we had .. the game has changed too much.


Moons back in the day(curious to get an understanding of your concept of "back in the day")?

What the hell does moons have to do with the topic?


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