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blankseplocked [Proposal to Team BFF] Treat Faction Ships as T2 ships for FW plexes.
 
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.13 15:39:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: X Gallentius on 21/06/2011 16:23:03
Edit: Pirate faction isntead of all faction ships.

Speaking of low hanging fruit...

Proposal: Treat PIRATE faction ships as T2 ships for entrance requirements into FW plexes.

Doing this one simple thing will make T1 frigs, T1 destroyers, and T1 cruisers relevant again, and will allow lower sp (poorer) players to be competitive in an arena originally designed to allow them to have a chance.

Veshta Yoshida
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.13 16:42:00 - [2]
 

I know what you are trying to do and agree with it on some level, but it will have unintended consequences (at least for me and mine (Amarr only)).

No minor would ever see a frigate, it will be all destroyers all the time.
All mediums would be flooded with Caracals, Ruptures and BBs .. simply because nothing comes close in efficiency.

"Faction" would also include the Navy hulls which were made for FW so it becomes a 'one step forward, two back' type of thing (hint: exclude Navy and you got my support Smile)



Mongo Edwards
Posted - 2011.06.13 19:32:00 - [3]
 

I agree make it so only pirate faction ships are treated as T2.

Otherwise I fully support this idea - anything to make plexing "fairer" for those that can't afford the fancies. It won't fix plexing by any means but its a good start.

Tsubutai
The Tuskers
Posted - 2011.06.13 21:51:00 - [4]
 

Excluding navy frigates gives you RP consistency but doesn't actually solve the problem - a fight between a plain T1 frigate and a decent faction frig is going to be every bit as stupidly unbalanced as a fight between a plain T1 frigate and a dram or AF (and, from a roamer's perspective, it'd still be annoying to be out in an AF or intie and see a Comet or Firetail or w/e hiding out in a plex I couldn't get into). I'd far rather have the minors broken out into two tiers - one that admits only plain T1 frigate hulls and one that will admit *any* frigate or destroyer hull, T1, T2, or (pirate) faction.

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.13 22:51:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: X Gallentius on 21/06/2011 16:23:38
I can't win. Very Happy

Personally I would rather see all faction ships treated as T2, but the cold hard facts are that while navy faction frigs are a bit overpowered, the navy cruisers are not (especially the lower tier cruisers). Nobody will say a Navy Vexor is better than an Ishtar. OK, somebody might, but they'd be lying. and the Navy Exe sucks.

However, pirate faction ships are better across the board than their T2 counterparts and should definitely be bumped up to T2 levels w.r.t plex entrance requirements.




Super Chair
Caldari
Hell's Revenge

Posted - 2011.06.20 22:22:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Super Chair on 29/06/2011 05:39:40
Edited by: Super Chair on 20/06/2011 22:25:52
I support the tuskers idea, heres why:

Right now I'd say navy faction and T2 frigs are about the same level whereas pirate faction have an advantage (such as dram/daredevil) over both of these classes. If you bump all faction up to make t1 frigs relevant again, you pretty much might as well stop flying them except for ganking people who arent in caracals if the lowest sized plex your faction frig can get into is for cruisers.

You still have the same issue as before with navy faction still being allowed with just 1 plex size if you allow navy and not pirate. On the cruiser level all you will see is SFI instead of cynabals, and on the frigate level you will just see people still flying faction frigs so the point of trying to give newer players a chance is moot. I support the tusker's idea of making one t1 frigs (edit: dessies are in a bit of a rough spot, newer players could very well afford and skill them just as easily as a t1 frig, so the first size *could* see dessies) only, then t2/all faction/dessies (and below) for two sizes of plexes. A similar model could be applied to the medium plexes (t1 only, and then t2/faction and below), and well, for majors I would leave them as they are since there really is already a similar system in place (gated/ungated majors).

I believe cruisers are being looked at this winter as far as rebalancing goes. So maybe you will see more than just caracals, stabbers, ruppies, and blackbirds for strictly t1 plexes.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2011.06.21 04:15:00 - [7]
 

Supported.

Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
draketrain

Posted - 2011.06.21 13:26:00 - [8]
 

nice idea

Dirk Smacker
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
Posted - 2011.06.21 16:14:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Dirk Smacker on 21/06/2011 16:16:47
This, or Tsubutai's idea in post 4, would be a major improvements to plexing PvP.

Or maybe the gates to the FW plexes, for a CONCORD-sanctioned war, have special restrictions allowing no pirate hulls. Granted, that's an immersion solution to a gameplay issue which would result in pirates flying less pirate hulls, thus breaking immersion. :)

Anything to break up pirate frigs dominating minor plexes is fine by me. But I do think navy frigates, who aren't that overpowered, versus destroyers would be interesting.


jackaloped
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:18:00 - [10]
 

This idea as updated to just exclude the pirate faction and tuskers idea would both be an improvement.

Damar Rocarion
Posted - 2011.06.28 19:31:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Damar Rocarion on 28/06/2011 19:31:38
Tuskers idea is good. Ok, Hookbill is still best faction frigate imo but at least it's not impossible for others to win it. I dont agree with cynabal turns to SFI argument since based on my experience, navy caracal can win sfi. It's not easy but certainly possible.

praznimrak
Gallente
Level Up
Posted - 2011.06.28 20:07:00 - [12]
 

+1 for this idea

Von Kroll
Caldari
Kroll's Legion

Posted - 2011.06.28 22:40:00 - [13]
 

+1

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.06.29 00:08:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 29/06/2011 00:10:29

Supported as long as it is ALL faction ships.

Some of the regular faction frigates are at least as powerful, if not superior to many of the t2 counterparts.

Originally by: Tsubutai
I'd far rather have the minors broken out into two tiers - one that admits only plain T1 frigate hulls and one that will admit *any* frigate or destroyer hull, T1, T2, or (pirate) faction.


This actually makes most sense.

chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.29 00:30:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: chatgris on 29/06/2011 00:30:26

Bad Messenger
draketrain

Posted - 2011.06.29 05:57:00 - [16]
 

Time to make FW again for newer players.

Veshta Yoshida
Amarr
PIE Inc.

Posted - 2011.06.29 09:54:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Veshta Yoshida on 29/06/2011 10:03:04
Proposal changed to reflect differences in hull "power", and thus my support as promised Very Happy
Originally by: Omara Otawan
...Some of the regular faction frigates are at least as powerful, if not superior to many of the t2 counterparts.

Which one in particular, because I sure as hell don't see it.
Firetail < Both AFs + Claw.
Hookbill < Both AFs + Crow.
Comet < Ishkur + Taranis.
Slicer stands out though, but only because Amarr frigs are generally poo. Difficult to compare it either way as there is no 'equivalent' in T2 really (its a mix of Punisher/Coercer)

Won't matter much as it will degenerate into a Thrasher spam contest for the most part when (Hope!) pirate frigs are kicked out Very Happy

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2011.06.29 14:18:00 - [18]
 

Perfectly reasonable.

FW being their favorite feature, CCP surely is running to get this implemented Rolling Eyes

Princess Nexxala
Gallente
Quantum Cats Syndicate

Posted - 2011.06.29 18:36:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Princess Nexxala on 29/06/2011 18:37:49
I like raping noobs in my faction/pirate shipsEvil or Very Mad




But in all honestly this is probably a good idea, but it would need to be all faction ships not just pirate. In the case of the Cynabal people will just downgrade to a SFI, DD I would switch to a comet...better yes but still unbalanced

Portmanteau
Gallente
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:45:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Portmanteau on 29/06/2011 18:45:19
Originally by: Veshta Yoshida
I know what you are trying to do and agree with it on some level, but it will have unintended consequences (at least for me and mine (Amarr only)).

No minor would ever see a frigate, it will be all destroyers all the time.
All mediums would be flooded with Caracals, Ruptures and BBs .. simply because nothing comes close in efficiency.

"Faction" would also include the Navy hulls which were made for FW so it becomes a 'one step forward, two back' type of thing (hint: exclude Navy and you got my support Smile)





Destroyers are easily accessible to noobs... so what is your problem exactly ?

Chris Fierce
Caldari
NoD Imperium

Posted - 2011.07.14 23:01:00 - [21]
 

Up

Tiina Turmiola
Minmatar
draketrain

Posted - 2011.07.14 23:50:00 - [22]
 

this requires more oomph

pirate faction ships are more like faction tech 2 ships and thus should be treated as tech 2

this is a real problem. please fix.


Lakuma
Posted - 2011.07.15 02:29:00 - [23]
 

This would certainly give navy ships some love - which I'm all for!

More importantly it would keep pirate ships out which in turn makes the plexes more fun for t1's (which have a much better chance against navy ships) as well as force veteran players to fight on more level ground.

+1

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.07.15 07:12:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Portmanteau
Destroyers are easily accessible to noobs... so what is your problem exactly ?

Problem? No problem, already supported this most noble endeavour.

Destroyers are awesome when done right, but I eat them in T1 frigs if they are ****-fit or low-skilled and walk all over them in navy frigs so can only imagine that pirate frigs will barely notice they are there.

If on the other hand it is T2 fit and flown by a skilled pilot you are no longer in noob territory as price is quite high and they take more than XX SP to fly properly .. gives my Slicers a run for the money though.

Same "issue" with all ship hulls really, they are accessible quite fast but you'll end up dead in a hurry if you jump the gun and board it.

PS: Won't support with this secondary main because it is dishonest, so 'hah'!

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous

Posted - 2011.07.15 16:53:00 - [25]
 

I support making pirate faction counted as t2, I do not support making navy faction count as t2. No excuse for not using navy anyways tbh, that **** is basically free to everyone in FW.

Karl Planck
Labyrinth Obtaining Chaotic Kangaroos
Posted - 2011.07.15 19:35:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Omara Otawan
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 29/06/2011 00:10:29

Supported as long as it is ALL faction ships.

Some of the regular faction frigates are at least as powerful, if not superior to many of the t2 counterparts.

Originally by: Tsubutai
I'd far rather have the minors broken out into two tiers - one that admits only plain T1 frigate hulls and one that will admit *any* frigate or destroyer hull, T1, T2, or (pirate) faction.


This actually makes most sense.


Yup, this does make the most sense (as long as we still get a god damn fix on the spawning)

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.07.16 05:55:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 16/07/2011 05:57:04

Originally by: Veshta Yoshida

Originally by: Omara Otawan
...Some of the regular faction frigates are at least as powerful, if not superior to many of the t2 counterparts.

Which one in particular, because I sure as hell don't see it.
Firetail < Both AFs + Claw.
Hookbill < Both AFs + Crow.
Comet < Ishkur + Taranis.
Slicer stands out though, but only because Amarr frigs are generally poo. Difficult to compare it either way as there is no 'equivalent' in T2 really (its a mix of Punisher/Coercer)



Navy faction frigs fill the role of combat interceptors, so comparing them to AFs is kinda moot. Even though they can give some AFs a good run for the money.

Firetail vs Claw is up for debate, I'd say Firetail is superior in general due to slot layout. Or rather more flexible.

Taranis vs Comet, mostly on par but Comet does come out slightly ahead. That is, before we consider it has a full flight of replacement drones. Easily makes Comet the better choice.

Crow vs Hookbill, honestly the Hookbill outclasses the Crow to such a ridiculous extend its not even funny. How you'd chose a Crow over the Hookbill unless its simply a price consideration is beyond me.


Anyway, back to the top.

Flynn Fetladral
Royal Order of Security Specialists
Posted - 2011.07.16 11:56:00 - [28]
 

Yeah, lets do it.

Greg6
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.25 19:24:00 - [29]
 

It's a no brainer. Fully supported.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.07.26 13:48:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Cearain on 26/07/2011 13:48:21
Originally by: Portmanteau
Destroyers are easily accessible to noobs... so what is your problem exactly ?



Personally I think destroyers are pretty boring ships. Just get allot more guns and tank than a frigate. No real tactics or planning.

Even if you like them there are only 4, and really only 1 that works well. Minors would just be thrashers online if you excluded all faction ships. There are very few t1 frigate fits that have a chance against a decent destroyer.

But yes I do support this change since its just pirates ships excluded.

The problem is allot of this is theory crafting since very little pvp goes on in plexes anyway.


 

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