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blankseplocked [Respec] Skills unlearning, dual queue and more...
 
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Tekashi Kovacs
Posted - 2011.06.12 16:31:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Tekashi Kovacs on 12/06/2011 22:05:46
.
As we all know an instant "WOW style" respec is bad and generally unwated here in EVE. Heres where I come with much more balanced idea.

An skills unlearning queue, similar to normal train over time feature but working... backwards.

How it works:

You set the skill you dont want to see anymore and then it goes, from max to the zero, over time, lvl5->lvl4->lvl3, giving all unlearned SP to your "SP redistribution pool" (the same SP pool as from missing Learning skills).

Whats the point then?

-It would have to be able to work along with normal skills training. Dual queue, one skill learning and one unlearning at time.
-Skillbooks wouldnt be given back, they are all lost, risk:reward ~.~
-SP unlearning speed would be the same as learning rate, dependant of related attributes (there could be some penalty eventually)

***after reading an suggestions below I've changed my mind***

-SP unlearning speed would need to be based on 17/17/17/17/17 attributes or your lowest attribute to prevent cheating.

PROS:

-We would be able to correct out mistakes, but over (long) time, which is fair imo
-We wouldnt be able to instantly respec our alts then flood character market with them

CONS:

-See below >.>


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.06.12 16:42:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Tekashi Kovacs
-- It would have to be able to work along with normal skills training. Dual queue, one skill learning and one unlearning at time.
- SP unlearning speed would be the same as learning rate, dependant of related attributes (there could be some penalty eventually)
An obvious con is that these two points combined still means that you remove the point of having attributes: respec to Per/Will, train only those skills (at max speed) and then put the same skill into the unlearn queue and gain those SP back (at full speed).

Unless you introduce a significant slow-down factor for the unlearning (as in, you unlearn at 50% the speed you learn) not eventually, but immediately you will be able to abuse this system to get more SP than you would if you actually planned your skills properly.

Commander IceQ
Caldari
Spit and Ductape Maintenance
Trade Wind Commodities
Posted - 2011.06.12 18:15:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Tekashi Kovacs
-- It would have to be able to work along with normal skills training. Dual queue, one skill learning and one unlearning at time.
- SP unlearning speed would be the same as learning rate, dependant of related attributes (there could be some penalty eventually)
An obvious con is that these two points combined still means that you remove the point of having attributes: respec to Per/Will, train only those skills (at max speed) and then put the same skill into the unlearn queue and gain those SP back (at full speed).

Unless you introduce a significant slow-down factor for the unlearning (as in, you unlearn at 50% the speed you learn) not eventually, but immediately you will be able to abuse this system to get more SP than you would if you actually planned your skills properly.


Tekashi Kovacs; not a bad idea, but I agree with Tippia on the penalty. How about you can only train or unlearn. Should satisfy Tippia's idea about the slow-down in training and you get your unlearning. :)

Vargo Breen
Blue Republic
Posted - 2011.06.12 18:44:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Tekashi Kovacs
-- It would have to be able to work along with normal skills training. Dual queue, one skill learning and one unlearning at time.
- SP unlearning speed would be the same as learning rate, dependant of related attributes (there could be some penalty eventually)
An obvious con is that these two points combined still means that you remove the point of having attributes: respec to Per/Will, train only those skills (at max speed) and then put the same skill into the unlearn queue and gain those SP back (at full speed).

Unless you introduce a significant slow-down factor for the unlearning (as in, you unlearn at 50% the speed you learn) not eventually, but immediately you will be able to abuse this system to get more SP than you would if you actually planned your skills properly.


This is a good idea as far as unlearning goes. Tippia in response to your con, how about instead of a 50% reduction in speed, make it so that your skills all unlearn at the base attribute point that way it wont matter if you respec or if you have implants. That way your not going to spend 100d unlearning carriers 5. Just a thought other than that I support your idea Tekashi.

Tekashi Kovacs
Posted - 2011.06.12 21:23:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Tippia
An obvious con is that these two points combined still means that you remove the point of having attributes: respec to Per/Will, train only those skills (at max speed) and then put the same skill into the unlearn queue and gain those SP back (at full speed).


You are right. Unlearning at the same speed would indeed allow cheating. How I could miss that.

50% would probably be too harsh penalty, but Vargo Breen's idea about unlearning at base speed (all attributes at 17) sounds more resonable.

The other soulution that comes to my mind is only taking your lowest attribute into considerarion (which may be higher than 17 in some cases), but that would still prevent cheating successfully.


Lets say you are:

20 Int
20 Per
19 Char
20 Will
20 Mem

All you could cheat here is getting charisma (lowest attribute) at cost of something else (which has faster training speed). Limiting unlearning speed to that lowest attribute which is 19 in this case, would make such "cheaty" SP swaps pointless.

That would also reward those who doesnt gimp their certain attributes completely.

Aaron Barton
Posted - 2011.06.12 22:19:00 - [6]
 

I take some issue with the suggestion that the unlearning skill queue run simultaneously with the learning skill queue. Since those unlearned skill points would go into the skill points distribution pool - to be applied later - you're kinda essentially augmenting your sp/hour rate, earning more than you normally would. Even if the unlearning were to be penalized, you'd still have an augmented sp/hour. X is your normal sp/hour. Y is the unlearning sp/hour. X + Y, no matter how small Y, is still more than X.

I think the unlearning skill queue should not run simultaneously. You should have to choose between learning a skill and unlearning another. Both result in more skill points. This maintains the concept of choice and consequences, might be backed up with lore (skill learning and unlearning are so demanding that only one can be done at a time, I dunno), gives a chance for all those perfectionists to eventually have a skillboard full of only the skills they want.

Darth Helmat
Posted - 2011.06.12 23:22:00 - [7]
 

No. Its just horrible.

Only getting 50% of skill points back at 50% of learning rate would make it less horrible.



Digital Messiah
Gallente
N7 Corporation
PandaMonium.
Posted - 2011.06.13 02:42:00 - [8]
 

+1

This would actually be beneficial to a lot of players. Though I would be willing to bet people would buy industry characters with good support skills and go combat right quick. Adding on the industry sp to their combat skills as they unlearned. Making for a lot of new and quickly trained combat pilots YARRRR!!

Ruri Mizushisi
Posted - 2011.06.13 03:49:00 - [9]
 

I like this idea.

If you can only do one at a time, though, I would suggest that unlearning should go at full attributes-related rate, since I'm pretty sure you're still not going to have it add up faster to learn something with high attributes, unlearn it, and then reapply the skill points, since that essentially doubles training time.

What that *would* do is let people, with care and time, keep clone costs down, which *is* an issue for people in some situations. Not to mention, if someone didn't have any skills they wanted to train, including on an alt, they could, again *very slowly*, effectively "bank" some skill points against a future need for them, which I don't think would be a bad thing.

I would also support a mechanism being introduced whereby active accounts with no active skills in training accumulate unallocated skill points at a base 17/17/17/17/17 rate.

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.13 05:38:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 13/06/2011 05:43:45
I say NO. You don't need to correct "mistakes". You just need to start training something; if you have training in a different direction than you're headed - so what. You don't know that you might want to train those skills later anyway.

Learning in EVE doesn't allow mistakes in the sense that you are not locked out of any training just because you chose to train something you didn't need right away or that you didn't like.

I studied genetics in college.. in retrospec I didn't need that course of study. but the knowledge adds to who I am.

Again, I say NO to respeccing skills in anyway. Unless CCP remove some and decides to do a refund.. then it's their choice.


Tyme Xandr
Gallente
State Protectorate
Posted - 2011.06.13 05:59:00 - [11]
 

ive always been against the idea of moving, trading, deleting, etc SP ... but of all the ideas I have ever heard, this has to be one of the better ones. The idea I agree with is:
1) Unlearning and Learning go at same time.
2) Unlearning goes at lowest attribute point speed (if lowest att pt is 16 then ur a 16 across the board).

If I had to add something, I might suggest unlearning adds a percentage of time. Say 10% of time, just to keep a padding of time between skilling getting unlearned and then reapply.

Also, maybe a possibility of skillpoints being added to the skill over a 24 hour period. For example 240,000 SP freed up, you get 10,000 SP into the skill you choose an hour for the next day. Your also only allowed to 'inject' these skillpoints into one skill at a time and each takes 1 full day. This would slow the transition to a completely different 'character'.

I am also assuming that in order to retrieve the unallocated SP you would have to fully untrain a skill to a previous level? You cant just untrain a skill a few thousand SP and throw it somewhere else.

------------

A possible issue I see with this however: A person has a very high set of two attributes. This person has 3-4 skills which he always skills in, and uses his unskill tree to unskill them afterwards (despite at a lower rate) and uses these unallocated SP to put into skills that require attribute points hes not as high in.

He rinses and repeats for a while.

This results in him only needing two +5 implants. This also results in him getting maximum skill training time. This wouldnt last forever as X and Y would eventually drift too far apart, but then he could move on to something else while unskilling catches up (it would take weeks, maybe even months to get to that point though.).

Did that make sense? I just spent the last several hours doing a term paper.

Holland Galebi
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.13 07:58:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Holland Galebi on 13/06/2011 08:02:47
Edited by: Holland Galebi on 13/06/2011 08:01:32
Maybe you should add some biorythms to the skill training speed? It shouldn't matter, because your suggestion is already too complicated, but it would be fun.

Why, why the hell do you need to unlearn your skills? Are they an eyesore to you? are they useless to you? do you think you should have trained something else that time? Meet the consequences of your choices and shut up.

Unlearning... I wish I could forget things at will IRL.

Ruri Mizushisi
Posted - 2011.06.13 09:47:00 - [13]
 

I really don't think being able to do both at once is at all a good idea, on reflection, because at that point, it's potentially a net disadvantage if you *aren't* unlearning something.

To the people who can't see "the point": Seriously, clone costs rise with skill point totals, and it would be a substantial improvement for some people if they had a mechanism for reducing the number of skill points they had. I suspect there are people who would go for skill-unlearning as an option even if those skill points didn't get returned to your pool.

Holland Galebi
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.13 10:21:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Ruri Mizushisi
To the people who can't see "the point": Seriously, clone costs rise with skill point totals, and it would be a substantial improvement for some people if they had a mechanism for reducing the number of skill points they had. I suspect there are people who would go for skill-unlearning as an option even if those skill points didn't get returned to your pool.
People with OMG100MILSP are so poor and so silly they can't avoid being podded and can't affort 100 mil ISK for clones? If so, they will learn that buying characters without having brains is an expensive thing.
There is a way to reduce your skillpoint quantity. If you don't upgrade the clone because it's too expensive, your SP will automagically be lowered until you can affort the upgrade.

Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2011.06.13 11:33:00 - [15]
 

Not a bad idea; wouldn't benefit me very much seeing as I've wasted barely any SP. Wouldn't be against it if it was implemented (unlearning @50% of regular training speed; refund only after full unlearning of a skill level is completed)

Things that I'de "unlearn" if I could...

Corp Mangement III (8k SP)
Ethnic Relations III (16k SP)
Trade 0 (48 sp)
Amarr Industrial (9 sp)
Caldari Industrial I ( 1k sp)

That about covers it.

Tekashi Kovacs
Posted - 2011.06.13 16:24:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Tyme Xandr
A possible issue I see with this however: A person has a very high set of two attributes. This person has 3-4 skills which he always skills in, and uses his unskill tree to unskill them afterwards (despite at a lower rate) and uses these unallocated SP to put into skills that require attribute points hes not as high in.


That would be true if unlearning process was based on attributes related to the skill that is being unlearned (as Tippia noticed in 2nd post). By changing unlearning speed to be based on 17/17/17/17/17 (or your lowest attribute), such SP swaps becomes pointless, because you could train those, based on lowest attribute, skills in that slow speed a normal way, without using "Unlearn" feature.

Originally by: Tyme Xandr
I am also assuming that in order to retrieve the unallocated SP you would have to fully untrain a skill to a previous level? You cant just untrain a skill a few thousand SP and throw it somewhere else.


Yeah, full levels would make more sense I think.

Originally by: Aaron Barton
I take some issue with the suggestion that the unlearning skill queue run simultaneously with the learning skill queue. Since those unlearned skill points would go into the skill points distribution pool - to be applied later - you're kinda essentially augmenting your sp/hour rate, earning more than you normally would. Even if the unlearning were to be penalized, you'd still have an augmented sp/hour. X is your normal sp/hour. Y is the unlearning sp/hour. X + Y, no matter how small Y, is still more than X.


Actually this is untrue, because unlearned SPs doesnt come from nowhere, you HAD to skill them in past, so you wasted time already and arent boosting your skilling rate in any way. Imagine if you had three hours of skilling and each skill takes 1h to get.

1st hour
skill *A* level0->1 (at normal speed)
[unlearning queue inactive]

2nd hour
skill *B* level0->1 (at normal speed)
[unlearning queue inactive]

3rd hour
skill *A* level1->2 (at normal speed)
[unlearning queue active]
skill *B* level1->0 (at slower speed)
skill *C* level0->1 (from SP pool)

After 3 hours you end up with one skill at lvl2 and one at lvl1. Actually it would take a little above an 3h because unlearning goes at slower/nerfed speed.

By learning it traditional way:

1st hour skill *A* 0->1
2nd hour skill *A* 1->2 (all at normal speed, no penalty)
3nd hour skill *C* 0->1

Tekashi Kovacs
Posted - 2011.06.14 16:02:00 - [17]
 

Guys do you see any more flaws in this idea?

Was thinking about reposting its fixed version in Assembly Hall up to vote, but at first wanted it to be free of all illogicalness. >.>

Tyme Xandr
Gallente
State Protectorate
Posted - 2011.06.15 00:56:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Tekashi Kovacs
Originally by: Tyme Xandr
A possible issue I see with this however: A person has a very high set of two attributes. This person has 3-4 skills which he always skills in, and uses his unskill tree to unskill them afterwards (despite at a lower rate) and uses these unallocated SP to put into skills that require attribute points hes not as high in.


That would be true if unlearning process was based on attributes related to the skill that is being unlearned (as Tippia noticed in 2nd post). By changing unlearning speed to be based on 17/17/17/17/17 (or your lowest attribute), such SP swaps becomes pointless, because you could train those, based on lowest attribute, skills in that slow speed a normal way, without using "Unlearn" feature.



What I am more getting at is that you could essentially stave off respecing attributes by training in skills you have max training time in and then unlearning them in a cycle and reapplying those points to a skill you would train at lowest speed to.

This could possibly be circumvented by having a 'cooldown' on a skill unlearning. A skill unlearned couldnt be unlearned for a set period of time.

---

Also, I am not sure how quickly ud want to put this into AH as many people are against skill point changing and with the current CSM i doubt any of them would back it.

Stelmine
Posted - 2011.09.08 21:03:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Stelmine on 08/09/2011 21:05:20
+1

This is what I need :)
I started playing in 2007 and did not know anything about this game.
Allso I'm pretty ficle so I have learned too much wrong skills that
I would like to respec and repurpose.

Edit: Sorry about bumping an "old" thread.

Joe Risalo
Posted - 2011.09.09 16:35:00 - [20]
 

So, I think this would work.

Here's why.

You only have so many skills you can take away, but plenty to add. At some point in time you'll be done removing skills cause the only skills left to remove are the ones you use, and it would be really dumb to train skills just to remove them.

Someone up wind suggested that remapping would make it unfair... Not really... You can only remap once a year. During the time you train those skills you're not remapped, so you're waisting time. Now, once you remap you start untraining those skills and training skills affected by your remapped stats.
This causes it's own headaches.
Reason why is cause you would basically have to train unwanted skills for a year, remap to untrain those skills faster, while training other skills effected by the remap which at some point in time you're gonna end up training skills that you really don't want.

Like if I trained a ton of missile skills over a year, then remapped and untrained them while I began training space ship command skills, well at some point in that year I'm gonna run out of ships I wanna train for and just start training for random crap. So now I have more waisted skills.

The other factor. I spent a year training all those missile skills so that I could remap and untrain them while I train ship skills.

Once I finish untraining all those missile skills then I will take them all and apply them to turrets.....WTF????

So Basically I just took a year's worth of points and over we'll say 1yr 10 months put them into turrets. SOOO DUMB!!!

You could have just remapped in the beginning to train turrets, taken 10 months to do that, the remapped for spaceship command skills.

What I'm saying is if you use that method you're waisting time cause the year's worth of points that you trained for so that you could remap and remove would have only taken 10 months to apply where you wanted them had you just remapped and trained them in the first place.


WHAT I JUST STATED IS EXACTLY WHY THIS IDEA WOULD WORK.... TRYING TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS WOULD BE DUMBER THAN NOT USING IT!!!!




 

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