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blankseplocked [Proposal] Advanced skills balancing
 
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Echo Gemini
Minmatar
Intergalactic Sunrise
Posted - 2011.06.11 22:22:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Echo Gemini on 12/06/2011 19:00:47
Edited by: Echo Gemini on 11/06/2011 22:22:56
Currently all skills for t2 weapons and drones have a bonus of 2% per skill-level, but it could take as long as bsV to complete!..

My proposal is to change the bonus to 2%^n, where n is the level - 1, like so:
current_level = 2 * 1 = 2 | new_level 1: 2^0 = 1
current_level = 2 * 2 = 4 | new_level 2: 2^1 = 2
current_level = 2 * 3 = 6 | new_level 3: 2^2 = 4
current_level = 2 * 4 = 8 | new_level 4: 2^3 = 8 (currently the same bonus, many people just stop here! For a reason, level 5 is not practical!)
current_level = 2 * 5 = 10 | new_level 5: 2^4 = 16% bonus which is more attractive!

Advantages:
- easy to implement ... is bitwise friendly;
- it rewards skill/race-focused players;
- is sweet for bitter-old players;
- with the removal of training skills, this could be a nifty way of making players focusing on a specific race!
- it doesn't create a big gap between new and old players!.. Gangs, fleets and blobs is what matters in a multiplayer game!
- [to follow]

Disadvantages:
- [to follow]

Testing:
- possibly creates an imbalance to defense bonuses!

Mars Theran
Caldari
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.11 23:52:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Mars Theran on 11/06/2011 23:52:19
Yeah, I'm good with this. Currently the only reason to train most skills to level 5 is boredom or it being a required skill for something else. 2%/level bonuses do not scale well with current training times, and level 5's tend to severely impact player progression. Also, when you have a Character trained up to that level, it really should mean something, and an advanced player should pwn players who are only partially trained, making 2-to-1 odds viable for that advanced player.

edit: + support

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.06.12 00:04:00 - [3]
 

I support this in theory.

However, the 2% per level already means T2 weapons are 10% more effective at lvl 5.

Also, your formula table is starting with a level 0 and finishing with level 4.



2% at Level 1 = 2%
2% at Level 2 = 4%
2% at Level 3 = 8%
2% at Level 4 = 16%
2% at Level 5 = 32%



Basically the bonus would double every level.

Mars Theran
Caldari
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.12 00:12:00 - [4]
 

Where n is current level -1, is more practical and realistic. Where n is current level leads to somewhat unrealistic results that would throw game balance for a serious loop.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.06.12 00:22:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Val''Dore on 12/06/2011 00:22:40
Originally by: Mars Theran
Where n is current level -1, is more practical and realistic. Where n is current level leads to somewhat unrealistic results that would throw game balance for a serious loop.


Well, it would be more practical to lower the bonus itself:



1.5^1=1.5
1.5^2=3.0
1.5^3=6.0
1.5^4=12.0
1.5^5=24.0





1.2^1=1.2
1.2^2=2.4
1.2^3=4.8
1.2^4=9.6
1.2^5=19.2



Another possible method is to create an elite skillset that is trainable after level 5, sort of like adv learning worked.

Torpedo Specialization V = 10%
Elite Torpedo Specialization V = 10%+10%

Mars Theran
Caldari
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.12 01:06:00 - [6]
 

I can see a cap of 20% working fairly well. I've thought of Elite skills before too, but the training times would be aweful. I'd rather they just made each level worth the extra time investment, than that.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.06.12 03:47:00 - [7]
 

Well, Elite skills don't necessarily have to be a higher rank than the skill they require. They could also give a different bonus. For example, Large Pulse Laser Specialization is a rank 8 skill (same as Battleship) and gives 2% Damage to Tech 2 Large Pulse Lasers per level. Elite Large Pulse Laser Specialization might give an entirely different bonus, such as 2% RoF (an 11.11% DPS increase at lvl 5), or even an unprecedented double bonus of 2% RoF and 10% reduced Heat Damage. The Elite skill doesn't need to be rank 12 as the CCP Skill tree tends to go with, but instead either a 25 or 50% decrease in sp need, rank 6 or even 4. The vast bulk of the sp is still in the Tech 2 Spec skill at a month to train for normally. Adding another two or three weeks to train Elite skill to V and you still have a credible time sink for a very specialized weapon system.

Elite skills could also be used for other things, such as Elite Energy Management with another 2% cap capacity per level, Elite EM Shield Compensation with 2% more passive resist per level, etc.

Imagine Elite Gallente Battleship adding 5% Railgun Optimal and 10% Blaster Falloff. Or Elite Caldari Battleship offering 5% Missile Velocity and 5% Hybrid Damage. At rank 4, but requiring BS 5.

Mars Theran
Caldari
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.12 04:26:00 - [8]
 

The best part of this idea: Suddenly ship balance will be so much less important Very Happy But seriously, I'd love to be able to get a stable fit without needed two level 5 implants, and nerfed DPS/tank.

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous

Posted - 2011.06.12 13:14:00 - [9]
 

I'm inclined to agree with this. As it stands, large pulse laser 5 just isn't something I'd even consider training. Seriously, 45 days or whatever for an extra 20 dps on a 1000 turret dps BS just isn't a good use of skill training. I'd rather train t2 torps and give the raven a whirl for example. And I'm one of those who spent the 20d or whatever training surgical strikes to 5 for that extra 3% damage. In fact, that right there is the problem. If it only took 10-15 days to train large specs to 5, I'd probably do it. But between the small increase and the huge training investment, it just isn't worth it.

Echo Gemini
Minmatar
Intergalactic Sunrise
Posted - 2011.06.12 19:00:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Mars Theran
Where n is current level -1, is more practical and realistic. Where n is current level leads to somewhat unrealistic results that would throw game balance for a serious loop.


Yup, my bad, sorry!
n = current_level - 1;

I will update the post!

Tiny Mongo
Posted - 2011.06.13 20:06:00 - [11]
 

Not supported - it gives too big of an advantage to older players. You get diminishing return for your investment the farther up you go. This makes it so that you don't get the huge dichotomy between older players and newer players. You spend 1/5th of the time for 80% of the benefit - tbh this is part of why I like EVE as opposed to games like WoW where abilities go up exponentially the longer you play.

steave435
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.13 20:16:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Mars Theran
Edited by: Mars Theran on 11/06/2011 23:52:19
Yeah, I'm good with this. Currently the only reason to train most skills to level 5 is boredom or it being a required skill for something else. 2%/level bonuses do not scale well with current training times, and level 5's tend to severely impact player progression. Also, when you have a Character trained up to that level, it really should mean something, and an advanced player should pwn players who are only partially trained, making 2-to-1 odds viable for that advanced player.

edit: + support

That's the whole point of this system. As you advance trough the game, every extra sp is much less significant then it used to be, which is what allows new players to catch up, or close enough to it anyway since at that point the really old vets are spending a month on 2% for a single weapon type.

Mars Theran
Caldari
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.13 22:53:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Mars Theran on 13/06/2011 22:56:15
You may be right, but I still think Vet's should have a leg up, without needing an Officer fit Nightmare to get it. Plain fact: Skills should mean something. A 5 year old toon properly trained should outstrip a newb, rather than die to 3 vs. 1 odds against 2 week old charaters.

edit: Likely this would also make a difference in how many Supercaps and Caps were fielded vs. Subcaps in Nullsec. If having a very well trainined Battleship actually meant something, more people would continue flying them, instead of needing a Supercap to make 1 vs 1 odds seem good.

steave435
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.13 23:53:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Mars Theran
Edited by: Mars Theran on 13/06/2011 22:56:15
You may be right, but I still think Vet's should have a leg up, without needing an Officer fit Nightmare to get it. Plain fact: Skills should mean something. A 5 year old toon properly trained should outstrip a newb, rather than die to 3 vs. 1 odds against 2 week old charaters.

Why?
The vets advantage lies in having a very big arsenal of ships to choose from so he can pick the best ship for the job, his experience and skill and the wealth he has accumulated during the years.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Posted - 2011.06.14 00:48:00 - [15]
 


Why is your proposal limited to damage?

There are lots of science and industry skills that only give a small linear bonus for the exponentially longer training time. Imagine if this method was applied to manufacturing material efficiencies and time efficiencies. I'm sure this wouldn't give an overwhelmingly large advantages to highly skilled manufactures, rather than the small advantage they currently get for such long training ques.

What about EWAR effectiveness.... Training the last level of Turret Destabilization or Signal Suppression takes several weeks. But it would suddenly be worthwhile if they got exponential increases in the effectiveness of TD's and Sensor dampeners. Wouldn't it be neat if a celestis could damp a recon to 10 km's lock range, and if an arbitrator could make a Hurricane unable to hit an orbiting Supercarrier!

What about leadership skills: Why should someone who trained all those long fleet boosting skills to level 5 only get a small extra bonus... Wouldn't the game be better if having a fleet boosting command ship gave exponentially increased bonuses.... Think how much 200km web and point ranges would boost game strategies. Imagine RR on dramiel-sized BS's sporting 90+ resists.

/sarcasm

Diminishing returns is an extremely important feature of this game. Its necessary to EVERY ASPECT of game balance. I can understand your desire to increase the bonus that a level 5 skill provides, but the level of boosts your suggesting are WAY overboard.

Basically, skill training time increases at an exponential rate for a linear increase in bonus. Stick to this formula!!

Not supported!

LordElfa
Gallente
Golden Lyon Warriors

Posted - 2011.06.14 00:49:00 - [16]
 

CCP designed the skill system so that vets would have more versatility over newer players, not more power.

While I don't mind the idea, CCP would also say that the purpose of the skills as they are is so to get that extra 2% requires dedication. Most stop a 4 because there are more beneficial skills to train than wasting a month of an L5 skill that only gives you 2%.

Your way would see less versatility as to be able to compete you would have to train to 5 nearly every time, especially with weapons.

Also, to intact this system would cause complete chaos among any players that weren't vets due to the bonus that currently exist at the levels they exist at are all that allows them to use certain ships and modules they currently use.

Still, I'll support this because I like chaos and something more worthy to work for.

Mamba Lev
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.06.21 13:40:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Mamba Lev on 21/06/2011 13:40:20
Marvelous idea. Training level V is the ban of my EVE existence.

Goose99
Posted - 2011.06.21 15:46:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Goose99 on 21/06/2011 15:47:07
Originally by: steave435
Originally by: Mars Theran
Edited by: Mars Theran on 13/06/2011 22:56:15
You may be right, but I still think Vet's should have a leg up, without needing an Officer fit Nightmare to get it. Plain fact: Skills should mean something. A 5 year old toon properly trained should outstrip a newb, rather than die to 3 vs. 1 odds against 2 week old charaters.

Why?
The vets advantage lies in having a very big arsenal of ships to choose from so he can pick the best ship for the job, his experience and skill and the wealth he has accumulated during the years.


This^

Entitlements for vets drives noobs away. The current specialization skills are already OP as is, since they allow cheap t2 guns to outdps vastly more expensive faction guns. T2 guns do not need even more unbalancing. When you unbalance stuff that are cheap, it creates problems, as everyone and their mother go for it.

Everyone will train lvl5 specialization for this insane bonus curve. There's a reason CCP don't use "^" anywhere, and use only flat values in formulas.

Originally by: Mamba Lev
Edited by: Mamba Lev on 21/06/2011 13:40:20
Marvelous idea. Training level V is the ban of my EVE existence.


In that case, remove specialization skills. Problem solved.Cool


 

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