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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.06.13 09:20:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
*snip*
Allow me to answer these questions for you.
1) There's a graphical option specifically for CQ. Lower it if you have issues.
2) No. You're wrong. The UI is still there. No need to walk around. No extra clicks. No wasted time.
3) CCP wrote the lore and they can damned well change it if they want to.

1) I know. So far you get a never ending loading screen at worst. Would had been nice if CCP could iterate and explain what their thoughts on that are.
2) Take a ship from the ship inventory and drop it in the hangar view to change it on TQ and then on Sisi. Try to open the ship cargo bay by double-clicking in the hangar view on TQ and then on Sisi.
3) Incarna is about immersion into the lore of Eve, not throwing exactly this lore out for walking in stations. There are solutions to this particular problem that wouldn't hurt anyone, like different states of being docked.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.06.13 09:39:00 - [32]
 

If only one CQ at start... why the ugliest race possible? You want every new player to be introduced to eve with a bag of trash?

I mean the bag of trash is brilliant, but only if you're minmatar, it sets the mood. But now ammar players start off eve seeing the inside of a minmatar can in the wall? wtf?


by the wya I only fly minmatar I love the rust. but come on, why not all caldari. it would still suck, but caldari is so... generic. So players wouldn't think it was weird. There is like 0 reasons to push this expansion out so fast if it's not done.

Hannibal Ord
Minmatar
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2011.06.13 14:21:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: CCP Manifest



Can we have separate graphics settings for the two totally different environments CQ/Incarna and Hanger/space?
Why would this matter to you? You were prefer higher graphics in station and lower ones outside I am guessing? Not a bad idea, but I don't know what goes into programming that sort of thing.




Appreciate the feedback and response. But you mostly have it wrong. Most people want MUCH higher graphical settings outside of CQ in space, because the space engine doesn't reduce our computers to wrecks. In CQ a lot of people want the graphics turned down automatically.... because it basically doesn't run very well. And if we can't have the old hanger view, then basically we are shafted unless this is actually implemented.

Jada Maroo
Posted - 2011.06.13 16:18:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Andreus Ixiris

So you're not even releasing all four racial CQs on the 21st?

Manifest, what the hell? What the hell is the point of releasing a half-finished product?


Half? It's only a quarter. Laughing

I knew something was wrong when they hadn't released the other CQs for testing yet.

Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2011.06.13 16:26:00 - [35]
 

I'm currently making this point to CCP Manifest on EVE General Discussion.

Arya Greywolf
Posted - 2011.06.13 17:03:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Sunji Togenada
Originally by: CCP Manifest

Can we have separate graphics settings for the two totally different environments CQ/Incarna and Hanger/space?
Why would this matter to you? You were prefer higher graphics in station and lower ones outside I am guessing? Not a bad idea, but I don't know what goes into programming that sort of thing.


The fact is, on a vocal minority/large group of users machines, Captains Quarters is much much much more intensive on the graphics card than flying in space is. I have a pretty high end graphics card and I can tell it's getting strained by captains quarters because of how loud the fan gets.

The space part of eve is much gentler on the graphics card, owing to it being space, which is empty aside from a few ships and stations.

What we want is to be able to have HIGH settings for space, which will run just fine and look pretty too, while also being able to have SEPERATE LOW or MEDIUM settings for CQ, which may not run well at all on some people's machines despite the fact that they can run FiS just fine on high settings.

The way it is now, to be able to run captains quarters at a playable frame rate, some people will have to put up with ugly out-of-station graphics even though they were perfectly well capable of running EVE on high before, that or switch graphics settings every time they dock or undock.

Please, poke someone on the design team about this! I beg you!
I don't know how hard it is to add separate graphics settings but I assure you it will make a LOT of players very happy!


This. Please CCP, implement the option to do this!

mkint
Posted - 2011.06.13 17:17:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: CCP Manifest

Can we have separate graphics settings for the two totally different environments CQ/Incarna and Hanger/space?
Why would this matter to you? You were prefer higher graphics in station and lower ones outside I am guessing? Not a bad idea, but I don't know what goes into programming that sort of thing.


Holy crap, that's upsetting. Yes, it's true, devs have no freakin' idea what their players want or think. This entire feature is really really gonna suck.

Players. Prefer. To. Opt. Out.

If players don't want to run the damned thing at all, why would ANYONE want to run it at computer-melting settings?

Now I'm depressed. Incarna is going to destroy EVE.

Kronir
Posted - 2011.06.13 18:51:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: CCP Manifest


Will the New 3d UI be made so that the new screens and features like fitting and such can be done in the environment rather than in the old UI windows?
We've had many many suggestions of people wanting us to keep the old UI windows with CQ in the future though we plan on overhauling a bunch, so maybe.



A lot of effort has gone into the new graphics system and the new Incarna setting. Does anyone else find it really odd to have those wonderful in-environment interfaces which merely open windows in the old UI?


Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.06.13 19:14:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Soden Rah on 13/06/2011 19:14:20
Originally by: Kronir
Originally by: CCP Manifest


Will the New 3d UI be made so that the new screens and features like fitting and such can be done in the environment rather than in the old UI windows?
We've had many many suggestions of people wanting us to keep the old UI windows with CQ in the future though we plan on overhauling a bunch, so maybe.



A lot of effort has gone into the new graphics system and the new Incarna setting. Does anyone else find it really odd to have those wonderful in-environment interfaces which merely open windows in the old UI?





Well I have almost written a book on the subject by this point... so no, you're not the only one... by a long shot.

Kronir
Posted - 2011.06.13 19:22:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Soden Rah

Well I have almost written a book on the subject by this point... so no, you're not the only one... by a long shot.


To be honest, I find this a real disapointment. After all Incarna is all about immersion, and the idea of in-environment interfaces is great for immersion. I found the current version on the test-server to be really weird when it just brings up the old UI.

Surely CCP realise this!?

Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente
United Mining And Distribution
Posted - 2011.06.13 20:24:00 - [41]
 

Incarna's been a slow-motion trainwreck since they started working on it. I think this is my favorite bit so far though:
Originally by: CCP Manifest
Why would this matter to you? You were prefer higher graphics in station and lower ones outside I am guessing? Not a bad idea, but I don't know what goes into programming that sort of thing.

Great example of somebody involved with Incarna being so out of touch with the player base that it doesn't even occur to him that people are just trying to get their clients to run at acceptable frame rates without turning their computers into melted slag. Despite pages and pages of people complaining of performance (and heat) problems going back for months.

The rage over what is actually going to be delivered on the 21st is going to be epic when the average eve player (non-forumgoer) learns why the system requirements have skyrocketed ... for a single room that offers no gameplay.

Hahahahahaha


Mirabi Tiane
Posted - 2011.06.13 21:59:00 - [42]
 

ITT: CCP faceplants, hard.

Madcow
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.06.13 22:45:00 - [43]
 

Really dont get why people are raging they only releasing a small part its better more stable less bugs and everything else can then be added to it.

Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2011.06.13 23:01:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Madcow
Really dont get why people are raging they only releasing a small part its better more stable less bugs and everything else can then be added to it.


The content removes functionality from the game, and we don't even get all of it at once. This... is just not acceptable.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.06.14 03:38:00 - [45]
 

They should release at least 2 CQs. One for minmatar, one for ammar. They are after all, the rolepayers that put a lot more importance into the looks of their ships/ environments.

They are opposite worlds for heavens sake.

BugraT WarheaD
Astromechanica Federatis
Posted - 2011.06.14 07:17:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Soden Rah
A lot of effort has gone into the new graphics system and the new Incarna setting. Does anyone else find it really odd to have those wonderful in-environment interfaces which merely open windows in the old UI?


I am ... as you know ...

All the answers we've seen (mostly because of you, thanks for that mate Wink) here makes me sad for the 21st but confident if CCP keeps its promises (hu ... what ?). As far as we've seen and heard for now, CQ is not an option, isn't a feature that you can use to do things an other way, so it's completely useless ... I know that it will become something bigger in several months, but it's really akward to see this new environement coming without its full potential.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.06.14 07:58:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/06/2011 07:58:33
whoops

Lamiamoto Serrotta
Posted - 2011.06.14 11:54:00 - [48]
 

I loved that "Why do lasers have recoil" LOL

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.06.14 15:35:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Soden Rah on 14/06/2011 15:40:33
adding in the answers I received in the other thread.
followed by my responses.

Edited by: CCP Manifest on 12/06/2011 13:13:03

Originally by: Soden Rah SOME MORE QUESTIONS, BOLDED BELOW



*I came to this thread being directed from another one by Soden here.

If it is going to be so buggy, why....?
You know we aren't planning on releasing anything buggy, right? Just because it's complicated doesn't mean that it will be bug-riddled. So far our internal tests point towards it as being fine and having no appreciable technical difference from the current way of doing things--with the exception of multiple accounts on the same machine. More on that later..

Also if as in the backstory our characters are deeply paranoid about leaving the pod, due to fear of assassination, do they leave their pods on the end of a gantry in full view of the rest of the hanger, with no shower, towel soft furnishing or privacy...

My understanding of the backstory (I haven't read ALL the chronicles) is that capsuleers are for the most part, existent in a more exclusive part of the station from the regular Joe. Stations are also relatively safe, being as they have "airport-like" security, so fear of assassination should be at a minimal.

Instead of the nice sealed private room with creature comforts as seen in the excellent fanfest trailer from last year?

One step at a time!

That's ok, but you could have, like the rest of the station, just put it behind a door that wont open yet till you get it done...

That's where it is right now...


I understand that this might not be possible in the first build, but you have to understand that Incarna and CQ is almost useless and unusable until the UI does work like this...

I would actually disagree with you here. You know that if your statement was true, the current UI wouldn't work at all and nobody would be able to surf the market. There's a reason why the old UI is in with the new.


I kinda got where you were going with the last part of your post, but really, it wasn't as clear as I'd need to respond. You were saying that we should have separated Incarna from doing anything else in station? That path is WAY unoptimal at the current time for many reasons.

CCP Manifest
Public Relations and Social Media|| Iniquitous Brute

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.06.14 15:40:00 - [50]
 

next response

Originally by: Soden Rah SOME MORE STUFF.




I/we have no idea whether you have read any of our feedback...

Everyone's feedback has been read either by someone on the team itself OR distilled and passed along by our wonderful community team. Responding to everyone would be counterproductive to actually producing.


Basically I was asking that when testing features on the test server more of a dialogue exist between you [CCP] and us [the testers] for our mutual benefit.
You are right, we need more dialogue there and our testing team has realized that.

However we have yet to see any improvement...

Improvement is in the eye of the beholder. There are obviously many conflicting feedbacks and wishes expressed during testing.

Also upfront info, possibly in devblog form detailing what isn't YET in the build but will be later to reduce the 'why is this not in yet' posts

While that would be nice, I don't think it's necessary. Our company shows you guys a LOT more than pretty much any other company. This peek behind the curtain isn't for everyone though, so I always try to suggest that anyone prone to dissatisfaction with designs should avoid test servers entirely and just wait till deployment.

Some stuff about organizing feedback and feature development changes.
We can probably do a better job at this in efforts towards the things you mentioned, you are right.



CCP Manifest
Public Relations and Social Media|| Iniquitous Brute

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.06.14 15:42:00 - [51]
 

and my responses.

Originally by: CCP Manifest
That's ok, but you could have, like the rest of the station, just put it behind a door that wont open yet till you get it done...
That's where it is right now...


I understand that this might not be possible in the first build, but you have to understand that Incarna and CQ is almost useless and unusable until the UI does work like this...
I would actually disagree with you here. You know that if your statement was true, the current UI wouldn't work at all and nobody would be able to surf the market. There's a reason why the old UI is in with the new.


I kinda got where you were going with the last part of your post, but really, it wasn't as clear as I'd need to respond. You were saying that we should have separated Incarna from doing anything else in station? That path is WAY unoptimal at the current time for many reasons.




the other thread is here btw ;-)


ok for the first bit, sorry I should have been clearer, the rest of the station is behind a door that wont open, the pod is down some stairs under the balcony.. what I meant was if you didn't have time to make a pod room, you didn't have to tack the pod onto the balcony, you could have made another door that didn't open that would eventually lead to the pod room.

Second part, The unusablity is with the 'new' UI, in that you have to minimise/close all/most of your open windows to be able to walk to the new UI buttons which then open up more windows that cover it up again. If your doing things that involve moving things between windows it makes it very awkward trying to open them up with the new UI... so you just end up using the old one.
This makes the New UI almost totally pointless, as having both together does impinge on performance, and one of them is made totally redundant by the other. I understand you are planning to work on the new UI, but my point is until that work is done, its just a curiosity, not a functioning tool.


Ok for the third point I obviously need to explain better what I am talking about... so here goes.

At the moment CQ is performing as our old hanger, and as the first step into Incarna.

To do this, and keep everyone just trying to refit their ships 'happy'.
CQ has to have exactly the same functionality as the hanger.
In fact you have been stressing the point that you believe it does achieve this (barring ship spinning).
It also, needs to function as Incarna with whatever new features and functionality that has as well.
My premise is that those two things are not always if at all mutually compatible.
If you let us keep the old hanger view and then make CQ happen separately and after docking.
then it doesn't have to function exactly like the old hanger, because the old hanger is already doing it.
Which leaves you free to choose exactly how much of the old hanger functionality, and whatever other things we can access is available and in what way in CQ/Incarna.
At the moment you are committed to making it exactly the same as we can't not enter CQ on docking.
This means you are limited in your choices as to what functionality we have in CQ...
you are committed to all of it.
Now you could chose too give us all the exact same functionality, but I think that's a mistake...

From an RP perspective, we are supposed to dislike leaving our pods, where we achieve everything we want with mear thoughts, but sometimes there are some things that just can't be done from in our pods, sometimes because its a deal so shady that no electronic trace can be allowed to exist... So we are forced to leave our pods and venture out into the messy, cold, smelly and SLOW station interiors, to perform our dirty deeds.

Continued next post....

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.06.14 15:44:00 - [52]
 

From an RP perspective, we are supposed to dislike leaving our pods, where we achieve everything we want with mear thoughts, but sometimes there are some things that just can't be done from in our pods, sometimes because its a deal so shady that no electronic trace can be allowed to exist... So we are forced to leave our pods and venture out into the messy, cold, smelly and SLOW station interiors, to perform our dirty deeds.



To reflect this, I would like to see you actually having to walk places to achieve stuff, so I can't be sitting at a bar say, get a call to join in defending the corp pos, and just vanish into thin air teleporting to my pod. I have to walk/run all the way back... so when I leave my pod I really feel the separation, every step away from it is a step I will have to take back.

Also to do things like access the market I might have to go to my market terminal, or remember to have with my my portable tablet computer...
The idea being that there are things that you can only do in stations, that tempt me to leaving my pod... but it comes at a price.

This only works if CQ and the Hanger are not one thing.

This is what I mean when I say that linking the two reduces your options and limits your design. (there are also aesthetic concerns that people want different functionality depending on if they are looking at it as a station interior or as Incarna.)

Also by linking them in this way, by using the in space UI while walking around, you mean that any change to the in space UI affects the In Incarna UI, and vica verca. as they have contradictory design needs and imperatives this creates conflict that need not exist.


I hope that has made my position clearer. Wink

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.06.14 15:49:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: CCP Manifest
If it is going to be so buggy, why....?
You know we aren't planning on releasing anything buggy, right? Just because it's complicated doesn't mean that it will be bug-riddled. So far our internal tests point towards it as being fine and having no appreciable technical difference from the current way of doing things--with the exception of multiple accounts on the same machine. More on that later..



heh, yes I do appreciate, that. However as acknowledged in the VDB trying to hunt down all the bugs that will occur when 60k people simultaneously try to use it on different machines...
plus experience... I can't remember a patch with no bugs in it. This isn't a criticism just a fact of life, you can't QA everything. My point was, that given so many excellent arguments for making CQ separate from the Hanger, and given that if you make the hanger and CQ the same and it does have bugs, (which it will). Anyone with those bugs will likely have trouble every time they dock, rather than just if they tried to use the new Incarna feature. And this will apply to Every UI/Incarna patch from now on, as the two are tied together so what effects one effects the other.
Anyhow looking forward to the dev blog :-)


Originally by: CCP Manifest
Also if as in the backstory our characters are deeply paranoid about leaving the pod, due to fear of assassination, do they leave their pods on the end of a gantry in full view of the rest of the hanger, with no shower, towel soft furnishing or privacy...

My understanding of the backstory (I haven't read ALL the chronicles) is that capsuleers are for the most part, existent in a more exclusive part of the station from the regular Joe. Stations are also relatively safe, being as they have "airport-like" security, so fear of assassination should be at a minimal.



Well i did say paranoid ;-) anyhow, the hangers are many miles across, giving many tens of miles of interior surface, trying to spot someone with a super advanced telescopic riffle somewhere in all that would be very hard. Plus slimy bare feet/knees on hard metal grate?


Originally by: CCP Manifest
Instead of the nice sealed private room with creature comforts as seen in the excellent fanfest trailer from last year?
One step at a time!



Bad WIS pun detected Razz







I would like to thank CCP Manifest again for taking the time and trouble to try to answer these questions, But we need game designers to weigh in who actually know the answers to these questions to join in.
And the latest dev blog , doesn't tell us anything we don't already know, and ignores all of our questions/worries about CQ.

Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
Posted - 2011.06.14 16:24:00 - [54]
 

I've recently tested CQ on singularity, and am grateful that my poor machine could allow the game to still function. I have to disable 'load station environments', though, in order to squeak past.

I had a min spec machine not long ago, but one of the Incursions patches which allowed for customization of the characters in stations changed that. With CQ, I'm well below minimum specs.

With all that said, I am fairly happy with what Incarna adds for me. It's nothing spicy like CQ, but the various other changes (recruitment, agent finder, maller reskin, turret reworks, etc) are good, solid additions.

So here's my question:

Why not allow for the current 'ship spinning' station environment (or even the 'ship frozen in place' environment) for those who cannot, or wish not to, run CQ?

Plain and simple, in the one hand I'm happy to still be able to play the game at all, but on the other hand I would prefer not to have an old rusty door sitting on my desktop every time I docked. It strikes me as a point of confusion, on why something that works fine now and has for years, would be striken out for lower-than-mininum end machines and replaced with a picture of a walkway.


Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2011.06.15 03:13:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Why not allow for the current 'ship spinning' station environment (or even the 'ship frozen in place' environment) for those who cannot, or wish not to, run CQ?


This is what pretty much everyone on this forum who's not a troll has been suggesting, and CCP have yet to provide an adequate response.

Rykuss
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.15 03:47:00 - [56]
 

Are all of the turrets going to look and sound properly at release? I have to ask because they still don't.

Si'Andregal Grungolash
Posted - 2011.06.15 08:31:00 - [57]
 

Why oh WHY CCP are you not giving us the hangar view?
As the days pass, I become more and more convinced with their lack of communcations that CCP is being extremely irrational in their approach.
Completely ignoring our arguments for immersion, and game design as well as performance issues, which is about the only thing CCP will quickly, and falsely claim is working absolutely perfectly.

I just can't fathom any answer beyond what CCP has pretty much shown us, that they're forcing us to appreciate their work because they just can't digest the idea that capsuleers don't want to spread themselves out onto the sofa so that the player can gawk at their every detail every single time you enter a station, when sitting in your ship can realistically accomplish a capsuleers everyday tasks.

Please come to your senses CCP, I love your work dearly, and incarna has been one of the most anticipated things of my last three years. It's gorgeous and (somewhat) immersive, and I would definitely be disembarking to rest in my CQ, and relax almost everytime I need to sit in a station for extended periods of time. But breaking PF lore and wasting a perfectly good ship viewing environment (EVE's beautiful ships need appreciating too) for such an, ugh, I hate to say this but what else will get to CCP at this point, immature reasons is really where CCP doesn't need to be right now.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.06.15 09:27:00 - [58]
 

Still would like an answer on those questions there CCP, please?

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.06.15 23:22:00 - [59]
 

link to me freaking out a little, posting link/copy here, cos while I properly got over-dramatic. I think the point is still valid... and its lost in a sea of rage where it is.


Edited by: Soden Rah on 15/06/2011 22:15:28
Will you please....


for the love of whatever gods you sacrifice too...




Post some dev blogs and answers to questions for the patch coming out in 5 days.

Instead of posting more stuff for people to get worked up about that's coming out some time After the patch happening in 5 days...

How is it that this thread gets monitored and has the devblog updated to reflect feedback... while the countless threads on Incarna...
which have I mentioned is coming out in 5 days.... get nothing .....

Please focus on one thing at a time....
Focus on the patch you are about to release...
And Answer our damn questions... PLEASE....



Incarna is one of the most... Longest anticipated features, to come to eve... You are treating it like some censured love child you want to get out of the way without anyone noticing...

Stop posting Pie eyed, idiotic ideas about the different ways you can screw us out of our money, until after you have sorted out what you are about to inject into TQ.

I am sorry, but much as I generally admire your work, Incarna is catastrophically badly designed, and your communication on the subject has been abysmal.

We desperately need that to change, and you have very little time left in which to do it.




EDIT: Also your dev blog need to be MUCH longer and MUCH more detailed and MUCH clearer.

If you want people to understand that things are work in progress and that their are a number of options on the table (plus the option for options you haven't thought off yet) you have to SAY so.

Saying, this isn't set in stone we want your feedback, shouldn't have to be an afterthought.

Also in cases like this some examples we can relate to would be a real help. For example, what would be the options for eve-mon or EFT?
what kind of licence do they need, what would they need to do to apply?
What benefit is in it for them to have this licence?

If you write a blog that is that vague people will naturally assume the worst.


Kronir
Posted - 2011.06.17 07:46:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Soden Rah

Second part, The unusablity is with the 'new' UI, in that you have to minimise/close all/most of your open windows to be able to walk to the new UI buttons which then open up more windows that cover it up again. If your doing things that involve moving things between windows it makes it very awkward trying to open them up with the new UI... so you just end up using the old one.
This makes the New UI almost totally pointless, as having both together does impinge on performance, and one of them is made totally redundant by the other. I understand you are planning to work on the new UI, but my point is until that work is done, its just a curiosity, not a functioning tool.


Ok for the third point I obviously need to explain better what I am talking about... so here goes.

At the moment CQ is performing as our old hanger, and as the first step into Incarna.





The crazy thing is - this would be so easy to fix. They simply have to make the old UI disappear once you leave the balcony.

(That doesn't fix the window issue - but it does fix the two seperate UI issues at the same time).


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