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CCP Zymurgist


Gallente
C C P
Posted - 2011.06.10 17:12:00 - [1]
 

See what CCP t0rfifrans and CCP Flying Scotsman have to say about Incarna in their latest Video Dev Blog.

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.10 17:18:00 - [2]
 

Goood stuff. More video Dev Blogs please!

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2011.06.10 17:20:00 - [3]
 

Awesome!

/c

CCP Fallout

Posted - 2011.06.10 17:42:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: J Kunjeh
Goood stuff. More video Dev Blogs please!


we have a lot more planned :)

Myxx
Atropos Group
Posted - 2011.06.10 17:48:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Myxx on 10/06/2011 18:14:22

i want to customise what shows on the screen for me. i want to be able to display mails or conversations im having with people on it. i want to be able to interface with the market via the screens, etc.

right now, its a large advert. let me do useful crap with it.

ie: i very much don't care for guristas epic arcs, or whatnot. let me show specific parts of the market that i want to see. let me switch the corp or PI screen out for a mail interface or something.

another example: let me switch the pi screen out for a galactic/onstellation/regional/system map. let me use it to plan routes, ie dotlan type interface.

integrate my contract interface with it. let me manage my contracts alongside the market.

let me switch what shows where on what screen, preferably as easily as possible.

edit: let me interface with a station's repair array/fitting array/S&I interface through it.

edit: i know, huge amount of work for you all, or not maybe. But seriously, its this type of useful stuff that would make it quite a bit more welcome to many more people.

Another eidt: the bounty system is horrible, displaying it on the main screen really doesn't amount to more than, 'OH HEY LOOK AT HOW MANY PEOPLE THIS PERSON HAS ****ED OFF AND HOW MUCH THEY WILL GAIN WHEN THEY POD THEMSELVES!'. I don't really see a reason that its displayed other than :shiny:

edit: before any of you say 'NO'... consider you already do it through the neocom anyway, so what im really asking for is redundant but still useful.

Kasidis
Gallente
Nexus.6
Posted - 2011.06.10 18:17:00 - [6]
 

Yes a little 3D floating map of the galaxy would be very cool. You could plans routes look over sov and sec status. The current map isn't the most user friendly thing. Regardless, I am looking forward to Incarna Very Happy

Raid'En
Posted - 2011.06.10 18:21:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Raid''En on 10/06/2011 18:22:01
they added something new from what we already know ?
cause when both speaking and listener are not on their first language it's not really easy to understand oral...
they said that incarna is the biggest new thing they added to eve this the launch
they want to put only CQ cause they need to be cautious
... it was alreay said tons of times...

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.10 18:22:00 - [8]
 

I'm curious as to the statements regarding QA, not being able to predict what will happen, and being incremental. This seems rather contradictory. Removing the docked view, and having CQ or a black loading screen with the neocon is anything other than incremental.

Is the legacy of the docked view really such a big branch that it can not be included for at least one iteration?

Sino Sarn
THORN Syndicate
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.06.10 18:44:00 - [9]
 

Nerf supers, already.

Shiganaru
C0NVICTED
Posted - 2011.06.10 18:45:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Shiganaru on 10/06/2011 18:53:31
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
I'm curious as to the statements regarding QA, not being able to predict what will happen, and being incremental. This seems rather contradictory. Removing the docked view, and having CQ or a black loading screen with the neocon is anything other than incremental.

Is the legacy of the docked view really such a big branch that it can not be included for at least one iteration?


It probably has to do with the way the old docked view was rendered. In order to render CQ in the same space, they had to change the type of surface it was being rendered to.

The point they are making with QA is that although the server is stable with 1k people working with CQ, they don't know how it is going to behave with 50k.

(CCP feel free to correct me, but...)

The big problem with that is the exponential increase in the amount of data the servers are going to need to handle with a first-person view.

While in space, the client-server only exchange information when the state of the current "grid" changes, such as someone entering grid, or setting their ship to orbit an object. The simulation engine running on both the client and the server keeps everything else looking pretty and synchronized.

While in-station, information such as the exact position of the player, which direction their head is turned (camera), their animation state, etc. will all have to be exchanged with the client/server and every other client that can see your avatar.

So, they'll do this one step at a time, starting with just you in the Captains Quarters, ending with a full blown concourse with bars, shop, etc.

Illadelph Justice
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.10 18:52:00 - [11]
 

I agree with the above sperg poster. Put in a map with a dotlan style interface or something as easy to read and plan with and I might actually use it. That said it should be available all the time so you know what to do

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.06.10 19:31:00 - [12]
 

Ok,
Having watched your VDB (video dev blog), I have a few comments, and a few questions...

First up, I would like to say that I have been looking forward to Incarna for some time and am very excited about the prospect of being able to get out of my pod and walk around stations...
This is very cool.

However I am not thrilled (to put it mildly) about being forced to do so, every time I dock.
This is massively immersion breaking, in a feature that is, as you say, all about immersion.

You talk about how hard a technical challenge adding Incarna (CQ) is, and how its almost guaranteed to go wrong in some way on hitting TQ...

I understand this, and I will not be joining in the inevitable emoquitragearg threads that will pop up after release to tell you you should have done more QA before releasing, blah blah blah....

However I will be continuing to ask,
Why it is that, on a feature that is so hard to implement, that has such a big chance of going wrong...
Why you had to make it compulsory on docking?

'If' it is likely to be buggy and such after release, why not implement it as you have always previously demonstrated it, as an option you have from the old/current hanger view after undocking?

That way if it doesn't work, it shouldn't (or be much less likely to) break people's ability to play the rest of the game as normal, while also at the same time being much more backstory friendly and immersion compliant.

Also if as in the backstory our characters are deeply paranoid about leaving the pod, due to fear of assassination, do they leave their pods on the end of a gantry in full view of the rest of the hanger, with no shower, towel soft furnishing or privacy...

Instead of the nice sealed private room with creature comforts as seen in the excellent fanfest trailer from last year?

If the answer is the room would have taken too long to get right for this launch...
That's ok, but you could have, like the rest of the station, just put it behind a door that wont open yet till you get it done...

Those of us that understand the challenge you're facing are prepared to wait...
And those that aren't wont be placated by anything so don't worry.

The screens are a nice idea...
But are unlikely be considered even slightly useful by vets until they have a lot more features AND most importantly the UI works in the environment so that rather than the screen being a big shiny button that opens windows that cover up all the shiny buttons forcing you to close/minimise the window to press any more shiny buttons, it just works like a screen should and actually shows you the information there on the wall.

I understand that this might not be possible in the first build, but you have to understand that Incarna and CQ is almost useless and unusable until the UI does work like this...
(same applies for ship fitting and such)

I also believe that by tying incarna to the hanger, (in that CQ now doubles as new shiny Incarna AND replacement for old hanger) you have limited your design/feature options in a detrimental manner.
First because in CQ/Incarna you have both the old UI and the NEW 3d UI (which use up more resources together than either separately) if at any time you break either both get affected.

Second and more fundamentally, as expressed in this thread...

By forcing the new incarna to have the same functionality as the old hanger you are restricting what can be done in incarna so it does not affect the performance of those just trying to use it like the old hanger...

Which is much more work than actually keeping the old hanger which is 100% successful at being the old hanger...

And making incarna separate...

So you can really make us feel the separation from our Pods, like we are supposed to according to the backstory.


If you have read all these arguments before, from me and others, then I apologise but ....

See next Post ;-)

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.06.10 20:14:00 - [13]
 

From previous post...

If you have read all these arguments before, from me and others, then I apologise but ....

I/we have no idea whether you have read any of our feedback...
Because we have hardly any, and no substantive response from you at all, for getting on for a week (if not more) on a feature coming out in less than a fortnight, and which many have serious concerns about... and unlike dust affects all of us now not some of us in 12 months time.

In the 'Devs Answer Your Every Question' thread, I have thus far had one of my questions answered.
The question was about feedback, specifically relating to the test server...

Here is the question [post 356 on P12], and here is the answer [Post 42 on P2]....

Basically I was asking that when testing features on the test server more of a dialogue exist between you [CCP] and us [the testers] for our mutual benefit.
The idea being that if we had a better idea of what changes were on the test server and what issues you already knew about we could give you better and more targeted feedback...
And we don't get angry and frustrated giving feedback to a brick wall...

Unless you say something, we have no idea if our feedback is helpful, well received (or not), If any of our suggestions are being considered, if they are not technically possible, if they are possible but you don't like them from an aesthetic stand point... ect...

In you're response you agreed that as you create threads specifically asking for feedback on particular topics and for us to help find bugs on the test servers, you probably could do better in communicating with us, (for exact question/response see links above)

However we have yet to see any improvement...

Now while more blogs and VDB's are great, they are by necessity too far apart to be of use here...
So I propose this...

You should aim to post feedback on our feedback at least once a week and on every new build on SiSi/Duality as applicable...
This should include what is being changed in the latest build,

what you most want testing data on, and what form it would most usefully take,

some response to any major areas of feedback/commonly asked questions
[e.g. when testing the NCC the list of people requesting the chars don't move when being sculpted, an issue that still irritates to this day, got too large to count... we have yet to have feedback on this],

and an UP-TO-DATE known bugs list....

Also upfront info, possibly in devblog form detailing what isn't YET in the build but will be later to reduce the 'why is this not in yet' posts


In addition I would recommend that new features under test/new builds should get new stickied threads for posting feedback in the test server feedback area.
Both dev response thread (locked for devs only) and our feedback thread

These threads will superceed old threads which will get locked and unstickied as new ones open.

This will mean that as people get familiar with how the system works they will know exactly where to find the latest info on the current build, and no thread should get sooo long its impossible to find stuff in them, making looking through them easier for us and you.

And most of all we get a nice warm fuzzy feeling of being talked to, and listened to, which hopefully reduces the name calling and general animosity that seems to erupt so often.
While making us more eager testers and guinea pigs, thus making eve better for everyone.

The forums in general might get a little nice place to live as some of the thread spam disappears as people learn where the best place to post on these issues is (I know it will only be slight but worthwhile I think)

For this coming patch the most urgent feedback I would like (and I hope here to pick uncontroversial subjects for feedback ;-) )

But in a new post ;-)

Vegeta
Minmatar
Guiding Hand Social Club
Dystopia Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.10 20:15:00 - [14]
 

Very impressed by the soundstage of the recording. Feels scarily binaural.

As for what they said... also cool.

mkint
Posted - 2011.06.10 20:28:00 - [15]
 

Yeah, watched it but 5 minutes later I couldn't remember actually hearing any information, so tried again. 3 seconds in I realize I was hearing the sound of CCP lies, propaganda, and marketing drivel. *yawn*

CCP, if you really had respect for your players, you'd respond to their legitimate concerns and not put your fingers in your ears going "la la la give us all your money la la la." A business that does not respect their customers, does not deserve their customers.

As a side note, CCP, if you really want to appeal to your players, never ever EVER use or allow an employee to use the word "iteration" ever again. Everyone knows that in the CCP's Dictionary of Terms "iteration" means "permanently abandon a feature and throw in a rude gesture at the players just for giggles."

Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
Posted - 2011.06.10 20:31:00 - [16]
 

Any insight if they are going to be the other 3 races of captains quarters, or they coming later?

Lisandra Riraille
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2011.06.10 20:36:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Patient 2428190
Any insight if they are going to be the other 3 races of captains quarters, or they coming later?


Yes, they said every station will have CQ.

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.06.10 20:37:00 - [18]
 

Following from previous post...

For this coming patch this the most urgent feedback I (and hopefully we) would like (and I hope here to pick uncontroversial subjects for feedback ;-) )

The old Hanger view, or the will CQ/Incarna be optional upon docking?
If not... why not? baring in mind that most people think this is how you promised to implement it, and given all the strong arguments about immersion and design/stability issues and such?

Can we have the pod in a room like the one in the trailer?

Can we have separate graphics settings for the two totally different environments CQ/Incarna and Hanger/space?

Will the New 3d UI be made so that the new screens and features like fitting and such can be done in the environment rather than in the old UI windows?
If so when?

Are you planning to add 3d UI buttons for ship maintenance bays, fuel bays and such for cap ships in CQ?

Will you add functionality to click on your ship in incarna to be able to do things like drag and drop a ship into your hanger, or modules/cargo into cargo bay?

Will we get all 4 races CQ's on launch?

What features are coming out when in the Incarna launch cycle?

Are you adding new turrets and CQ at the same time and if so is that wise?

Will you create a new 'in station' chat channel to replace local while ambulating in station (obviously not an option if we can't use the old hanger and have to decant on every dock)?

Why do lasers have recoil? (Sorry I had to put that one in, I recommend my suggestions from the threadnought but then I would, you did promise to reply to that thread Wink)

Long Gallente male hair... ?

Can we have unlimited fittings back, either local or server, just as long as they are unlimited?

Can the NCC have an option to alter your chars make-up/clothes/hair without creating a new char portrait?

The level of the film graininess... is it how you want and can we have an option to disable/alter it?

Will we have a better waiting message than 'loading' on the Incarna/CQ loading screen... It is kinda immersion breaking... Could we get optional animations here instead?

Can you Actually commit to better communications with those testing/giving feedback on the test server?

Do you now dread my posts and hate my living guts? SadShocked


There are loads more questions around but you can see those on the forums...

Hoping for a response...

Soden Rah

Silence 133
Posted - 2011.06.10 20:41:00 - [19]
 

Any chance of a subtitled version?

Adrie Atticus
Mining and Industrial Services
The Irukandji
Posted - 2011.06.10 20:53:00 - [20]
 

Fire your sound engineer!

I actually had to listen to the clip twice because for the first run I only concentrated on how someone actually managed to plug in 2 mics to separate channels. It makes the pronounciation actually worse than it is because you have to listen with only one ear and distortion kicks in more easily.

Horrid performance.

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.06.10 20:59:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Soden Rah


Why it is that, on a feature that is so hard to implement, that has such a big chance of going wrong...
Why you had to make it compulsory on docking?




The answer is very simple: CQ is designed to promote the sale of virtual goods. Think of it as a 'shop window'. Now why would CCP not want you to view that shop window at every available opportunity?

C.

Xurr
Posted - 2011.06.10 21:02:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Adrie Atticus
Fire your sound engineer!

I actually had to listen to the clip twice because for the first run I only concentrated on how someone actually managed to plug in 2 mics to separate channels. It makes the pronounciation actually worse than it is because you have to listen with only one ear and distortion kicks in more easily.

Horrid performance.


I dunno the tech behind the sound but holy crap that was irritating.

S'qarpium D'igil
Posted - 2011.06.10 21:07:00 - [23]
 

I'm cross-posting this from a thread in General Discussion. Remove it if you want CCP, but I figured you might actually see it here. Granted, you probably saw it in GD, but you'd rather respond to trolls complaining about Dust than people who have serious concerns about an expansion being released in less than two weeks.

---

Keep the old hanger view (ok maybe improve the graphics for it at some point, but keep the concept the same) where you have full functionality of all services as they exist today.

If you choose to unplug from your pod, then you enter the CQ and you're "off the grid." Chat channels still work, but local chat will become an in-station proximity chat (you only see text written by those near your physical location). You can't access ship fittings, ship hanger, inventory, market, medical, etc unless you use the new UI that is built-in to your CQ. For market and medical facilities, I would recommend adding a new section to the station (for example, a medical wing). Players would go to the medical wing, talk to an NPC or a computer interface, and update their clone.

If you want to undock, you have to walk to your pod and enter it physically (the pod should have its own room so you don't have to get naked at the end of the exposed ramp). None of this magical "Hey, I can cast a spell and magically teleport to the undock screen" bullsh!t.

If you don't want to deal with having to physically manipulate the world around you, and you don't want to have to go to your pod in order to undock, then simply don't leave your ship.

1) It adds immersion for those who want Incarna: having to actually touch the world around you to interact with it is nice. If we have a bunch of shortcuts, then there is no incentive to actually use any of the new UI that you've designed... at all.

2) This would also prevent a lot of frustration for people who don't want to deal with an ambulation simulation: they can stay and ship spin for as long as they please.

3) It makes sense.

CCP, if you want Incarna to be well-received and fun, then man up and give the players what they want; above all, STOP CUTTING CORNERS AND TAKING SHORTCUTS. Make this happen and Incarna will be amazing.


Edit: Another thing to mention to the devs:
I've been following threads on Incarna relatively closely, and I feel that someone should point this out to you: The majority of EVE's playerbase wants to see the continuation of the current hanger view as the default when docking. Yes, that of course means the players that don't want to use Incarna at all. However, that also includes the players who want to walk around in Incarna because it makes sense from a lore/common sense standpoint.

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.06.10 21:08:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Cailais
Originally by: Soden Rah


Why it is that, on a feature that is so hard to implement, that has such a big chance of going wrong...
Why you had to make it compulsory on docking?




The answer is very simple: CQ is designed to promote the sale of virtual goods. Think of it as a 'shop window'. Now why would CCP not want you to view that shop window at every available opportunity?

C.




Well I was kinda hoping CCP would answer ;-) but I have heard this before... and I don't buy it.

those that want to change their avatars outfit every 5 mins and are preprepared to pay cash/ISK for it will do so if forced or not...
Those that don't (Like me) will only be less likely to do it if CCP try to ram it down our throats...

Anyhow, I would like to have CCP actually answer the question... I am not holding out a lot of hope however.


PS: Being randomly logged out mid typing, having to go back to repost, then being told I can't because I am posting too fast, when the first attempt didn't succeed is Extremely annoying....
I am sure I can't be the only one frustrated by this...

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.06.10 21:53:00 - [25]
 

oh snap : D

Sarina Berghil
Minmatar
New Zion Judge Advocate
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2011.06.10 22:17:00 - [26]
 

Not much new.

I still wonder what kind of substance you plan to put into incarna. We have been fed a lot of information about stuff we can see, but very little about what we can do. Incarna can add a lot of submersion, but only if there are things to do. So far all the talk has been about an empty box, not much talk about what it is supposed to contain.

All these popular avatar based MMOs became popular because the avatars do stuff. They didn't become popular just because they had cool looking avatars.

I agree you can do all sorts of cool stuff with incarna, but it doesn't happen automatically.

Nasim Sunsorrow
Posted - 2011.06.10 22:21:00 - [27]
 

you guys have a funny accent. Laughing

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.06.10 22:24:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Adrie Atticus
Fire your sound engineer!

I actually had to listen to the clip twice because for the first run I only concentrated on how someone actually managed to plug in 2 mics to separate channels. It makes the pronounciation actually worse than it is because you have to listen with only one ear and distortion kicks in more easily.

Horrid performance.


it wasn't hard to understand at all.

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.06.10 22:31:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Adrie Atticus
Fire your sound engineer!

I actually had to listen to the clip twice because for the first run I only concentrated on how someone actually managed to plug in 2 mics to separate channels. It makes the pronounciation actually worse than it is because you have to listen with only one ear and distortion kicks in more easily.

Horrid performance.


While I wouldn't say it was that bad, having it that 'stereo' was distracting and unnecessary.
For stuff like that where there people are just talking I would definitely prefer/recommend outputting each voice equally on both channels...
Mono if you will ;-)

It sounds more professional apart from anything else.

And CCP T0rfifrans has a fantastic accent... leave him alone ;-)

boseo
Gallente
Azure Horizon
Posted - 2011.06.11 01:16:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Soden Rah
Originally by: Adrie Atticus
Fire your sound engineer!

I actually had to listen to the clip twice because for the first run I only concentrated on how someone actually managed to plug in 2 mics to separate channels. It makes the pronounciation actually worse than it is because you have to listen with only one ear and distortion kicks in more easily.

Horrid performance.


While I wouldn't say it was that bad, having it that 'stereo' was distracting and unnecessary.
For stuff like that where there people are just talking I would definitely prefer/recommend outputting each voice equally on both channels...
Mono if you will ;-)

It sounds more professional apart from anything else.

And CCP T0rfifrans has a fantastic accent... leave him alone ;-)


What they have obviously done is record the sound on 2 channels (left and right) and then forgot to double layer the sound in post-production (edit) thus meaning instead of sound in both speakers it is only in one.

luckily they have each persons voice coming out the same speaker as the side of the screen they are on (have seen this get messed up before).

oh and before anyone asks I study/work in film.

On topic:

Not really that much new information if I had to be honest. Would have been nice to have a few questions that have been floating around answered.


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