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Nin Kimrov
Minmatar
Kenzi Arms and Munitions
Posted - 2011.07.06 00:52:00 - [241]
 

Can we get this fixed asap, there lots of thing on the list to be fixed, specially Hybrids guns and faction warfare...

Salpun
Gallente
Paramount Commerce
Posted - 2011.07.06 03:39:00 - [242]
 

Looks like the still changing foundation code for CQ will have to be deployed first and be stable before team BFF can test their next patch which includes balance changes. It looks like the new foundation has come a long way though its live on Sisi and now they are in the fix operations bugs phase once fixed we can move onto team BFF's patch and Sisi can be used to test more small changes again.

Commandante Caldari
Dark-Rising
Posted - 2011.07.06 13:21:00 - [243]
 

Originally by: MrCaptAwsm
Dramiels are fine as they are.


So were Falcons Very Happy

Karii Ildarian
Caldari
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.07.06 14:00:00 - [244]
 

I only have one small request, if you please.

Double missile speed and reduce max flight time by 50%.

Thanks,

Your friendly neighborhood Caldari (stop laughing at my pvp ship) pilot.

kyrieee
Bite me inc.
Narwhals Ate My Duck
Posted - 2011.07.06 17:37:00 - [245]
 

Edited by: kyrieee on 06/07/2011 17:47:42
Edited by: kyrieee on 06/07/2011 17:41:12
Edited by: kyrieee on 06/07/2011 17:38:39
The fitting on the Oneiros is fine. If you have a problem with it it's on your end. It's however worse than the Guardian in areas where it shouldn't be, like sig radius. Give it 65m sig radius like the Scimitar and increase it's base speed by ~20-25 m/s.

Also, rep drones are worthless nobody uses them seriously. They're used in the AT where there's a limit on logis but that's irrelevant on TQ.

Someone suggested a Remote ECCM bonus and I think that would be an improvement over the current bonus.


Originally by: Suitonia
Current Agility/Base Speed/Afterburner Speed/Microwarpdrive Speed/Signature Radius. Assuming all 5 and no other modules.

Guardian: 7.2/261ms/651ms/1704ms/70m
Onieros: 7.9/268ms/640ms/1648ms/80m
Scimitar: 6.5/316ms/785ms/2051ms/90m
Basilisk:: 6.5/240ms/575ms/1481ms/65m




Those are not their base speeds, those are their speeds with skills applied

Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2011.07.07 14:11:00 - [246]
 

Paging CCP Tallest. Paging CCP Tallest...

Zsur1aM
Pink Bunnies
Posted - 2011.07.07 14:23:00 - [247]
 

Originally by: Blackhorizon
Edited by: Blackhorizon on 10/06/2011 14:07:16
Dear CCP Tallest, you are approaching this the wrong way. Frigates, as a class in general, are underused and underpowered in serious PvP.

Rather than nerfing the Dramiel, you should look to bring other frigates on par with the Dramiel, or better. This includes non-faction frigates like condors and executioners that right now are more or less just glorified shuttles.

I'd suggest keeping the Dramiel the way it is, but bringing other frigates in line with it in terms of capability and speed. Nerfing the Dramiel just hides the fact that many other frigates are wholly inadequate or useless.


+1

Gothart de'Bellem
Posted - 2011.07.07 18:46:00 - [248]
 

Originally by: Zsur1aM
Originally by: Blackhorizon
Edited by: Blackhorizon on 10/06/2011 14:07:16
Dear CCP Tallest, you are approaching this the wrong way. Frigates, as a class in general, are underused and underpowered in serious PvP.

Rather than nerfing the Dramiel, you should look to bring other frigates on par with the Dramiel, or better. This includes non-faction frigates like condors and executioners that right now are more or less just glorified shuttles.

I'd suggest keeping the Dramiel the way it is, but bringing other frigates in line with it in terms of capability and speed. Nerfing the Dramiel just hides the fact that many other frigates are wholly inadequate or useless.


+1


+1

Big'Black'Snake
Posted - 2011.07.07 19:41:00 - [249]
 

Originally by: Gothart de'Bellem
Originally by: Zsur1aM
Originally by: Blackhorizon
Edited by: Blackhorizon on 10/06/2011 14:07:16
Dear CCP Tallest, you are approaching this the wrong way. Frigates, as a class in general, are underused and underpowered in serious PvP.

Rather than nerfing the Dramiel, you should look to bring other frigates on par with the Dramiel, or better. This includes non-faction frigates like condors and executioners that right now are more or less just glorified shuttles.

I'd suggest keeping the Dramiel the way it is, but bringing other frigates in line with it in terms of capability and speed. Nerfing the Dramiel just hides the fact that many other frigates are wholly inadequate or useless.


+1


+ 1

+1

BearCare
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.08 14:09:00 - [250]
 

Originally by: Zsur1aM
Originally by: Blackhorizon
Edited by: Blackhorizon on 10/06/2011 14:07:16
Dear CCP Tallest, you are approaching this the wrong way. Frigates, as a class in general, are underused and underpowered in serious PvP.

Rather than nerfing the Dramiel, you should look to bring other frigates on par with the Dramiel, or better. This includes non-faction frigates like condors and executioners that right now are more or less just glorified shuttles.

I'd suggest keeping the Dramiel the way it is, but bringing other frigates in line with it in terms of capability and speed. Nerfing the Dramiel just hides the fact that many other frigates are wholly inadequate or useless.


+1
This.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.07.09 12:12:00 - [251]
 

Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 09/07/2011 12:49:18
Regarding the Oneiros, you want it to be similar, but not identical to the Guardian - each should have their own flavor.

The Oneiros should:
- Drop a mid in favor of a low slot so it can fit sensible resist mods
- Be able to fit an 800mm RT plate, 4 LRAR and perma-run them if it fits an AB (not with MWD)
- Be able to fit a 1600mm RT plate in the above if it puts in some kind of faction gear somewhere, or downgrades one RR to medium

The above makes it roughly equivalent to the Guardian in utility. It is more susceptible to cap warfare and can not support other fleet members with cap, but does not require a second Oneiros to work. Tank should be similar, with slightly worse EHP and similar resists. (Think about rebalancing Guardians so they require two large energy transfers to perma-run 4 LRAR even at logi 5, which reduces their extreme utility at providing 4 LRAR *and* cap bonus to fleet members; it should be able to run 3 LRAR + 1 LETA with only 1 LETA incoming and outgoing, not 4 LRAR + 1 LETA)

Next, give the Oneiros some unique flavor.

- Do not increase base armor
- Give it a lower signature, higher speed and higher agility than the Guardian (I would actually argue for increasing the sig of the Guardian, not decreasing the sig of the Oneiros)

This makes the Oneiros distinctly more desirable for AHAC fleets, while the Guardian remains more useful for huge fleet fights in combination with Abaddons.


Unrelated question: Is the Abaddon on your list of ships to be rebalanced as well?

Currently, the Abaddon is distinctly the most useful battleship for pretty much all fleet types except the somewhat marginal nano BS (Machariel, Tempest). It has the best resists and best EHP as well as an incredibly good combination of range and dps compared to other BS. The supposed drawbacks of the pulse lasers (tracking, cap use) are pretty much not noticable on the Abaddon, especially as it can fit 1-2 tracking computers and a cap injector or simply rely on Guardians to provide the cap. Additionally, it can fit artillery and can be almost as useful with that (same range, same alpha, lower RoF) while having much higher tank values than the specialized Minmatar projectile ships.

It does seem to me as if the Abaddon is a bit too versatile.

Tekashi Kovacs
Posted - 2011.07.09 14:43:00 - [252]
 

Edited by: Tekashi Kovacs on 09/07/2011 14:44:12

You guys should keep in mind that the thing that makes SCIMITAR better than ONEIROS doesnt make its "tracking link" bonus any more usefull.

Imo both, Oneiros and Scimitars bonuses needs to be replaced by something more usefull.

The problem is - what would be usefull second bonus for them? - remote sensor booster, ECCM bonus?

BABARR
PARABELUM-Project
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2011.07.10 01:33:00 - [253]
 

Edited by: BABARR on 10/07/2011 01:35:27
Originally by: Arkady Sadik

Unrelated question: Is the Abaddon on your list of ships to be rebalanced as well?

Currently, the Abaddon is distinctly the most useful battleship for pretty much all fleet types except the somewhat marginal nano BS (Machariel, Tempest). It has the best resists and best EHP as well as an incredibly good combination of range and dps compared to other BS. The supposed drawbacks of the pulse lasers (tracking, cap use) are pretty much not noticable on the Abaddon, especially as it can fit 1-2 tracking computers and a cap injector or simply rely on Guardians to provide the cap. Additionally, it can fit artillery and can be almost as useful with that (same range, same alpha, lower RoF) while having much higher tank values than the specialized Minmatar projectile ships.

It does seem to me as if the Abaddon is a bit too versatile.


Yes... but no. It's the other tier 3 BS who are broken (exept the maelstrom). The hyperion... just suck, supposed to be versatile blasterboat, but really got a too big ass to be efficient, small drone bay, and no tracking (and the epic lol broken active tank broken compared to passive). And rokh.. well, who seriously pvp in a rokh? Laughingyou can have a nice tank in a remote fleet, but DPS.....

Abaddon are great, yes, but they have a big ass, they are easy to catch, they don't like close ranged HAC/cruiser size, they are good only in fleet,ect. They are not good cause the stats/fit, abaddon are good because actual gamemech/strat (remote, agro timer broken, ect)

Rostin
Posted - 2011.07.12 17:23:00 - [254]
 

Leave the dramiels alone - if you think its overpowered just start fly it! Easy.

That ship is one of most expensive frigates and I see lot of killed dramiels on KB. I suppose its superior to other frigates, but the price is adequately higher. Its fair.

Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
Posted - 2011.07.12 23:51:00 - [255]
 

Edited by: Aloe Cloveris on 12/07/2011 23:55:51
Originally by: Tekashi Kovacs
Edited by: Tekashi Kovacs on 09/07/2011 14:44:12

You guys should keep in mind that the thing that makes SCIMITAR better than ONEIROS doesnt make its "tracking link" bonus any more usefull.

Imo both, Oneiros and Scimitars bonuses needs to be replaced by something more usefull.

The problem is - what would be usefull second bonus for them? - remote sensor booster, ECCM bonus?


An inherent Projected ECCM bonus would be kind of interesting. They already provide more sensor strength than local ECCM and with an additional bonus from the hull would make an Oneiros chain much harder to falc0wn than a Guardian chain. It would also give you the option of giving meaningful protection from an important not-logi friendly from jams as well.

An Oneiros chain would be something to consider when weighing the options between armor & endless cap from Guardian vs. armor & nigh-unjammable from Oneiros.

At any rate it's considerably more useful and less niche than Tracking Link bonuses so there's that.

Scimitars aren't as broken. Maybe give them a different bonus. idk.

Flynn Fetladral
Royal Order of Security Specialists
Posted - 2011.07.13 12:32:00 - [256]
 

Originally by: Aloe Cloveris
Edited by: Aloe Cloveris on 12/07/2011 23:55:51
Originally by: Tekashi Kovacs
Edited by: Tekashi Kovacs on 09/07/2011 14:44:12

You guys should keep in mind that the thing that makes SCIMITAR better than ONEIROS doesnt make its "tracking link" bonus any more usefull.

Imo both, Oneiros and Scimitars bonuses needs to be replaced by something more usefull.

The problem is - what would be usefull second bonus for them? - remote sensor booster, ECCM bonus?


An inherent Projected ECCM bonus would be kind of interesting. They already provide more sensor strength than local ECCM and with an additional bonus from the hull would make an Oneiros chain much harder to falc0wn than a Guardian chain. It would also give you the option of giving meaningful protection from an important not-logi friendly from jams as well.

An Oneiros chain would be something to consider when weighing the options between armor & endless cap from Guardian vs. armor & nigh-unjammable from Oneiros.

At any rate it's considerably more useful and less niche than Tracking Link bonuses so there's that.

Scimitars aren't as broken. Maybe give them a different bonus. idk.


I do like the idea of a Projected ECCM Bonus, could shake things up against ECM boats in general.

Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2011.07.13 14:59:00 - [257]
 

Edited by: Zarnak Wulf on 13/07/2011 14:59:37
Originally by: Rostin
Leave the dramiels alone - if you think its overpowered just start fly it! Easy.

That ship is one of most expensive frigates and I see lot of killed dramiels on KB. I suppose its superior to other frigates, but the price is adequately higher. Its fair.


Obvious troll. Price has never been an acceptable balancing argument. During the nano age pimped out crows would come in around 200 million isk. I could still kill them in my 15 million isk Thrasher. Those nano crows still got nerfed. And so will the dramiel. Have a nice day. Very Happy

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.07.13 17:31:00 - [258]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 13/07/2011 17:32:27
Quote:
if you think its overpowered just start fly it! Easy.


This is just so mind blowingly stupid it doesn't deserve a reply.

Quote:
That ship is one of most expensive frigates


Price is not a balancing factor.

Quote:
Rather than nerfing the Dramiel, you should look to bring other frigates on par with the Dramiel, or better.


Nerfing the Dramiel is much easier than mass buffing. Having said that:

Quote:
This includes non-faction frigates like condors and executioners that right now are more or less just glorified shuttles.


This. Ditch the tier system, add more variety to the game.

s0lar pulse
Posted - 2011.07.16 13:12:00 - [259]
 

The notion Dramiels are somehow alot better than other frigates. In terms of fleet combat, is just stupid. All frigates explode very easily in fleet combat ("real engagements") and that wont change by making everything like a Dramiel (the ship explodes alot). Unless you're able to get, an insane bonus to afterbuners. Something like 3000m/sec, with a interceptor signature bonus. I dont see that changing in the near future or want it too.

Either way! Frigates are fine and one of the most useful classes of ships.

Also,I find it very ammusing so many always reference Minmatar ships and bonuses, when trying to boost another factions ship. The Oneiros is a armor tanking ship, but many people who speak to me ingame. Want the Oneiros to be EXACTLY like the Scimitar. Indeed, no one seems to notice the Scimitar has the same useless bonus as the Oneiros (omg its the only logi with that useless bonus). There is no intrest in real diversity in this game, at all (atleast consciously). There are pilots in this thread, who have argued for diversity and in the next breath; Suggested, making one ship (Oneiros) exactly like another (Scimitar).

(Yes! Lets all fly around in our nano-armor-tanked battlecruisers) = /

Oneiros: If this ship cant tank better than its counter part. It should be able to repair other ships better.

-Focus on increasing Remote armore repair or Drone armor repair amount,
-lowering signature radius
-capacitor
-and possibly increasing the ships resistence.

Daramiel: Good luck figuring out how to nerf this thing, without making it useless. Compared to a firetail atleast, which it will be as fast as lol.

Honestly even if you gimp the speed it will still be a very good frigate. Mainly, because of its tank and damage. Few frigates ingame are able to dual prop and maintain good damage and tank: Taranis, Comet, Dramiel, Firetail, Rifter, Ishkur (tracking Issue), and Jaguar (tracking issue). The Dramiels afterbuner velocity was always its advantage. Changing it would make dissengageing more difficult, but still very viable. However, if you realy want to hurt the Dramiel. Nerf damage or remove a midslot, which would hurt tank. Either way, I'm fine with the ship as is.


-proxyyyy

Varrent
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.16 17:49:00 - [260]
 

Originally by: Big'Black'Snake
Originally by: Gothart de'Bellem
Originally by: Zsur1aM
Originally by: Blackhorizon
Edited by: Blackhorizon on 10/06/2011 14:07:16
Dear CCP Tallest, you are approaching this the wrong way. Frigates, as a class in general, are underused and underpowered in serious PvP.

Rather than nerfing the Dramiel, you should look to bring other frigates on par with the Dramiel, or better. This includes non-faction frigates like condors and executioners that right now are more or less just glorified shuttles.

I'd suggest keeping the Dramiel the way it is, but bringing other frigates in line with it in terms of capability and speed. Nerfing the Dramiel just hides the fact that many other frigates are wholly inadequate or useless.


+1


+ 1



+1



+1

Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.07.17 09:48:00 - [261]
 

Originally by: s0lar pulse
Also,I find it very ammusing so many always reference Minmatar ships and bonuses, when trying to boost another factions ship. The Oneiros is a armor tanking ship, but many people who speak to me ingame. Want the Oneiros to be EXACTLY like the Scimitar. Indeed, no one seems to notice the Scimitar has the same useless bonus as the Oneiros (omg its the only logi with that useless bonus). There is no intrest in real diversity in this game, at all (atleast consciously). There are pilots in this thread, who have argued for diversity and in the next breath; Suggested, making one ship (Oneiros) exactly like another (Scimitar).

This is not at all what we are getting at. The main issue is not whether the bonus to tracking links is useless (not entirely, btw) or that they are not "like the Scimitar", but more fundamental to the ship role itself. If you look at the logistics ships, you find two groups: remote cap transfer supported and independent. Nothing is wrong with the former, both the Basilisk and the Guardian work well in their intended roles.

For the second pair, you immediately notice something something odd. Despite them supposedly belonging to separate tanking doctrines, they share the same 4/5/4 slot layout. This means that the Oneiros with its armour transfer bonus is in fact inclined towards shield tanking. This is made even more apparent when you see the armour tank you are able to fit.

The obvious change would then be to swap a midslot for another low, allowing for more resist mods and a sturdier tank. You would still lack the grid to fit a 1600mm plate like you do on the Guardian, but that's fine. The same relation exists for the Basilisk/Scimitar pair, with the former sporting the heavier tank.

This would actually make it less like the Scimitar, because you now run into a slight cap stability issue by losing the third cap recharger you would normally fit. The solution to this could lie in the Oneiros surprisingly large cargohold. The 600m3 space is perfectly suited for cap boosters, while at the same time freeing up another mid for a utility mod like, say, a tracking link (assuming MWD/ECCM/booster in the other three slots).

IMHO, this is just as obvious a change as the warp speed boost, but one could still argue that the utility bonus needs looking at. Personally I have nothing against the tracking links and have used them on occasion with the Scimitar, supporting long range Machariels, and I know titan pilots will love you long time if you touch that special spot. A bonus to local tank could also be very interesting and make them viable for solo supporting small (<10) gangs. Remote ECCM has been mentioned in the thread, although my opinion is that would make them less independent and more like their Basilisk/Guardian counterparts. Still, this is not a necessary inclusion in the first step of balancing and they do work fine with the current bonus.


So CCP Tallest, are we there yet? Wink

Scandal Caulker
Posted - 2011.07.17 15:09:00 - [262]
 

I know that the Tracking Link bonus can be quite helpful in some very specific situations where it would probably have been a better idea to bring a Guardian over the Oneiros due to constant repping capability from cap chaining however dropping it for a remote ECCM Bonus is perfect. I've been thinking about it for a while now. Long before this thread started and I'm glad I'm not alone.
The R-ECCM bonus gives fleets the option of either choosing the Guardian to be highly resistant to Neuts or the Oneiros to be highly resistant to ECM.
However switching slots around might not be a good idea for the Oneiros. Especially considering it looks like its going to get a base armour buff anyway. Plus a velocity buff too which all help towards tanking. The Scimitar however could probably drop a low or two for more mids so that it can actually fit a tank and still use its utility bonus.

Flynn Fetladral
Royal Order of Security Specialists
Posted - 2011.07.17 19:23:00 - [263]
 

Originally by: Scandal Caulker
I know that the Tracking Link bonus can be quite helpful in some very specific situations where it would probably have been a better idea to bring a Guardian over the Oneiros due to constant repping capability from cap chaining however dropping it for a remote ECCM Bonus is perfect. I've been thinking about it for a while now. Long before this thread started and I'm glad I'm not alone.
The R-ECCM bonus gives fleets the option of either choosing the Guardian to be highly resistant to Neuts or the Oneiros to be highly resistant to ECM.
However switching slots around might not be a good idea for the Oneiros. Especially considering it looks like its going to get a base armour buff anyway. Plus a velocity buff too which all help towards tanking. The Scimitar however could probably drop a low or two for more mids so that it can actually fit a tank and still use its utility bonus.


Yeah, I've thought more and more about how powerful a Remote ECCM bonus could be for roaming gangs to help off-set the ECM menace. That, or introduce an actual dedicated anti e-war ship.

Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.07.18 02:09:00 - [264]
 

Edited by: Alice Katsuko on 18/07/2011 02:18:49
Edited by: Alice Katsuko on 18/07/2011 02:18:24
Agree that the Oneiros slot layout may need some rethinking, since it currently is unable to maintain cap stability and fit a good tank, unlike all the other logistics ships. However, the other logistics are rather well-balanced. The Scimitar and the Basilisk both have their roles, and both see quite a bit of use, although the Scimitar is nominally superior since it has greater freedom of movement and does not rely on a cap chain which is susceptible to fail cascades, even if it usually cannot permarun four large shield transfers.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
(Think about rebalancing Guardians so they require two large energy transfers to perma-run 4 LRAR even at logi 5, which reduces their extreme utility at providing 4 LRAR *and* cap bonus to fleet members; it should be able to run 3 LRAR + 1 LETA with only 1 LETA incoming and outgoing, not 4 LRAR + 1 LETA)


I'm not sure how such a change would be possible, and it would in any case be rather undesirable. The Guardian can indeed theoretically run four large remote armor reppers and two energy transfers from a single incoming energy transfer, if the pilot has trained Logistics V. In my experience many logistics pilots do not have Logistics V, for various reasons. Even with Logistics V, the Guardian in practical terms is very tight on CPU and to a lesser extent on powergrid and thus, like the Oneiros, cannot actually fit four large remote armor reppers without sacrificing hit points (downgrading from a 1600 to an 800 plate) or sacrificing resistances (spending low slots and rig slots on powergrid-boosting modules), or spending quite a bit of ISK on faction modules (which is prohibitively expensive considering the average lifespan of a logistics ship in many sizable fleet engagement is measured in seconds). This is why most fleet Guardians fit 3.5 large remote armor reppers (3x LRAR and 1x MRAR).

The Guardian does attain slightly higher EHP and has higher resistances when fitting 3.5 LRARs, and does not have to sacrifice cap to fit an ECCM module. However, the Guardian energy spider is very vulnerable to hostile ECM and energy neutralizers. If not all Guardian pilots have Logistics V (and I have yet to see a cap chain where every pilot has Logistics V after several months of flying nothing but Logistics ships in fleets), then the entire cap chain can collapse once an inexperienced pilot with Logistics IV runs out of cap. Furthermore, while the loss of a single Oneiros has no effect on the other Oneiroses, except that the entire fleet's tank is reduced, the loss of multiple Guardians in quick succession can irreperably break the cap chain, rendering the remaining Guardians virtually useless until it is re-established.

As far as providing energy to fleet members, in practical terms even if all Guardian pilots have Logistics V, no sane logistics boss will ever order logistics pilots to give cap to fleet members unless he knows for a fact that the enemy has no ECM or other EWAR and no energy neutralizers. Else the entire cap chain can cascade in a matter of seconds.

So overall I'd say logistics ships are very nicely balanced, both between one another and in terms of their class role. The Oneiros could benefit from an additional low slot, which might increase its usefulness. It is the one logistics ship I have not flown thus far, but I do see it used in fleet engagements, and while it does appear to be more fragile, this may be due to poor setups rather than due to any failing in ship design.

Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.07.18 02:18:00 - [265]
 

Originally by: Flynn Fetladral
Originally by: Scandal Caulker
I know that the Tracking Link bonus can be quite helpful in some very specific situations where it would probably have been a better idea to bring a Guardian over the Oneiros due to constant repping capability from cap chaining however dropping it for a remote ECCM Bonus is perfect. I've been thinking about it for a while now. Long before this thread started and I'm glad I'm not alone.
The R-ECCM bonus gives fleets the option of either choosing the Guardian to be highly resistant to Neuts or the Oneiros to be highly resistant to ECM.
However switching slots around might not be a good idea for the Oneiros. Especially considering it looks like its going to get a base armour buff anyway. Plus a velocity buff too which all help towards tanking. The Scimitar however could probably drop a low or two for more mids so that it can actually fit a tank and still use its utility bonus.


Yeah, I've thought more and more about how powerful a Remote ECCM bonus could be for roaming gangs to help off-set the ECM menace. That, or introduce an actual dedicated anti e-war ship.


The problem with remote ECCM chains is that once a single logistics in that chain is jammed, it is more than twice as easy to jam his ECCM buddy. This is why most logistics fit local rather than remote ECCM, even though remote ECCM gives a greater paper bonus to sensor strength.

A dedicated support ship for projected support effects such as remote ECCM, perhaps cruiser or maybe even battlecruiser size may be a very good idea.

Ivor Reganold Biggen
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.18 08:56:00 - [266]
 

Edited by: Ivor Reganold Biggen on 18/07/2011 08:57:35
Originally by: Alice Katsuko
Originally by: Flynn Fetladral
Originally by: Scandal Caulker
I know that the Tracking Link bonus can be quite helpful in some very specific situations where it would probably have been a better idea to bring a Guardian over the Oneiros due to constant repping capability from cap chaining however dropping it for a remote ECCM Bonus is perfect. I've been thinking about it for a while now. Long before this thread started and I'm glad I'm not alone.
The R-ECCM bonus gives fleets the option of either choosing the Guardian to be highly resistant to Neuts or the Oneiros to be highly resistant to ECM.
However switching slots around might not be a good idea for the Oneiros. Especially considering it looks like its going to get a base armour buff anyway. Plus a velocity buff too which all help towards tanking. The Scimitar however could probably drop a low or two for more mids so that it can actually fit a tank and still use its utility bonus.


Yeah, I've thought more and more about how powerful a Remote ECCM bonus could be for roaming gangs to help off-set the ECM menace. That, or introduce an actual dedicated anti e-war ship.


The problem with remote ECCM chains is that once a single logistics in that chain is jammed, it is more than twice as easy to jam his ECCM buddy. This is why most logistics fit local rather than remote ECCM, even though remote ECCM gives a greater paper bonus to sensor strength.

A dedicated support ship for projected support effects such as remote ECCM, perhaps cruiser or maybe even battlecruiser size may be a very good idea.


I tend to think about the Scimatar and the Oneiros in the situation of being the lone logistics ship in a smaller gang, so in a situation like that it would become the logistics with added anti-ewar. But the idea of a dedicated anti-ewar ships is pretty cool I have to admit.

Roffle Roffle
Posted - 2011.07.18 17:11:00 - [267]
 

I was expecting CCP to be removing the infinite cap thing from guardian/oneiros and fixing the tiny sig radius they all have (also maybe making it so pirates can actually use between 0 and 2 of them at a time). Instead I see everyone just wants the oneiros to be better, and for the current state of logistics being ridiculous to continue.

Roffle Roffle
Posted - 2011.07.18 17:13:00 - [268]
 

Also making it so assisting a ship that cannot dock/jump makes you unable to dock/jump.

Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.07.18 23:19:00 - [269]
 

Originally by: Scandal Caulker
The R-ECCM bonus gives fleets the option of either choosing the Guardian to be highly resistant to Neuts or the Oneiros to be highly resistant to ECM.


The problem here is, as already noted, that you again become dependent on a logistics chain and unlike the redundant dual cap chain it cascades if you break a single link.

Quote:
However switching slots around might not be a good idea for the Oneiros. Especially considering it looks like its going to get a base armour buff anyway. Plus a velocity buff too which all help towards tanking.

It was tossed out as a suggestion by CCP Tallest, but it's imho not very well thought out from a flavour point of view to give it more armour tank than the Guardian, although speed and sig are more in line with the ship role. A fifth low is needed either way to fit more resists mods since just more raw armour is not all that helpful, tbh.

Quote:
The Scimitar however could probably drop a low or two for more mids so that it can actually fit a tank and still use its utility bonus.

Dropping low slots means you will run into grid issues fitting MWD, LSE and three large transfers. You need those to fit PDS/RCU and also CPRs to deal with the fact that you use the mids for tank rather than cap. It is really only the Oneiros that needs some loving right now.

Scandal Caulker
Posted - 2011.07.20 16:00:00 - [270]
 

Originally by: Lucas Quaan

[About a R-ECCM Bonus] The problem here is, as already noted, that you again become dependent on a logistics chain and unlike the redundant dual cap chain it cascades if you break a single link.


I don't see why this would be a problem. The Oneiros/Scimitar would be logi-chaining in a different way to the Guardian/Basilisk. You could even chain Oneiros' and Guardians together in a large fleet where one provides ECCM cover and the other helps with Cap stability.

Also, it is simply a choice to logi chain with a R-ECCM bonus. You can still fit a local ECCM and a R-ECCM with the high number of mid slots you have.

If you REALLY don't want the Oneiros to have a remote utility bonus then why not a Capacitor Booster boost amount bonus so it can get more out of a cap boosting setup.


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