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blankseplocked Ship Balancing: Dramiel! (and Logistics)
 
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Rikki Retardo
Posted - 2011.06.16 23:19:00 - [121]
 

Good area to concentrate on :)

I believe there are a quite a few tech 1 frigates that need some ballancing. i try to pvp in every ship available but there are some frigates that are just not up to the job. I realize that there are purpose built frigates like scanners and miners which in my opinion can be ignored. That being said every combat frigate should be up to the job of combat but unfortunatly there are quite a few which are not. a ballancing of tech 1 frigates would have a broad appeal and we may see less pilots in rifters.

Preestar
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
Posted - 2011.06.17 00:05:00 - [122]
 

says goodbye to his 13.5km/s dramiel :(

Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.17 05:43:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Rikki ******o
Good area to concentrate on :)

I believe there are a quite a few tech 1 frigates that need some ballancing. i try to pvp in every ship available but there are some frigates that are just not up to the job. I realize that there are purpose built frigates like scanners and miners which in my opinion can be ignored. That being said every combat frigate should be up to the job of combat but unfortunatly there are quite a few which are not. a ballancing of tech 1 frigates would have a broad appeal and we may see less pilots in rifters.


It's all about the ship tier system that's really holding the game back. It's relevant for the first few days of gaming and after that it just means that over half of the T1 ships available ingame are totally useless for PVP, especially in frigate and cruiser hulls. And yes, I do agree that a slight general T1 frigate boost wouldn't hurt. (Maybe starting with the overall frigate & cruiser 5-15% speed boost I suggested)

cBOLTSON
Star Frontiers
Posted - 2011.06.18 11:38:00 - [124]
 

Leave the Dram as it is. Stop making everything about this game boring and tedious. You guys hate fun dont you?
Ok so you are going to nerf the dram, are you going to buff any of the countless **** frigs? Are you ****.

Yea I am somewhat mad bro.

LilH8rBoi
Posted - 2011.06.18 12:02:00 - [125]
 

****! if they make the dram slow i am ****ing quitting eve! love to fly drams. Evil or Very Mad

ballanemine svir
Posted - 2011.06.18 12:04:00 - [126]
 

They are pricy compared to ceptors. So u cant compare it to an ares for instanse. OMG OMG! LEAVE IT ALONE!

Lin-Young Borovskova
Posted - 2011.06.18 12:07:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: LilH8rBoi
****! if they make the dram slow i am ****ing quitting eve! love to fly drams. Evil or Very Mad


Contract me ya stuff, I'll make good use.

Ho and please close the door behind you.

Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2011.06.18 14:42:00 - [128]
 

I don't know how anyone can be surprised that the dram is getting needed. Really?!? CCP's fault for letting it go on and on and on....

Azurialli
Posted - 2011.06.18 19:01:00 - [129]
 


Well I think that the basilisk also needs some love.

Please give it a low sig radius and/or a shield resistance bonus.

Thus lacking the additional speed tank of the Scimitar, but having a powerful local shield tank.

Van Derka
Posted - 2011.06.19 07:25:00 - [130]
 

logi ships are a joke, even with the extra warp speed.
They way fragile and without maxed skills, other ships can do the same job and be more cap stable and have more tank.
Basically you have to get into a carrier to do any real/significant logi work.
Pairing up so the bonus can can be ampd, the fleet getting whats left...
I was disspointed, I expect a carrier wont be so...






guibio
Caldari
AdAstra.
Not Found.
Posted - 2011.06.19 13:13:00 - [131]
 

NERF DRAKE FFS.

Princess Cellestia
Posted - 2011.06.19 16:50:00 - [132]
 

Whine Whine Whine, NERF SUPERS. 20% damage reduction to fighter bombers would work, or 100%, and a 100% nerf to tank. That would be great. These guys want to kill supers with their negligibly nerfed Dramiels.

NosubstanceHere
Posted - 2011.06.20 00:10:00 - [133]
 

Edited by: NosubstanceHere on 20/06/2011 00:15:16
Edited by: NosubstanceHere on 20/06/2011 00:10:53
How bout you fix sub-cap Gallente hulls? Minmatar have speed and an excellent weapons system for pvp, Caldari have ECM and an excellent pve weapons system, Amarr have armor resistance bonuses and excellent weapons system in general.

What do Gallente hulls have? Hybrid turret bonuses and large drone bays on a handful of ships. Getting in range (assuming u can) nerfs most of the blasters usefulness. How about you swap the hybrid damage bonuses for increased hybrid falloff and the drone damage/ehp bonuses for ship EHP increases. I mean if ur gonna be a brick, why not be a bit thick.

But seriously, bonuses to hybrid damage is a joke and every other race can use drones, nothing special about Gallente hulls in this regard. Sure some Galente hulls have large drone bays, but they are usually gimped when the ships drone bandwidth is a complete joke. 50 Mbit/sec for the Brutix/EOS!?! 75 Mbit/sec for the myrmidon!?! Hell maybe even a bonus to reduce powergird requirements for hybrids would be awesome for a ship like the brutix.

I shall not conform and cross train. I will stay the course and be the miserable butt hurt Gallente pilot I have always been...but I wont like it. Save me CCP_Tallest...I'm mad bro and only you can console me <3.

Anyways....gonna have too cut me rant short...the goats somehow found their way out of my cellar again...

fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2011.06.20 05:10:00 - [134]
 

Edited by: fukier on 20/06/2011 05:11:58
rr is op... increase the fitting for large armor shield and energy transfers... make it so only bs's can fit them...

logistics cruisers are just that cruisers they have no right fitting full large rr plus energy... make it so logi cruisers can only fit medium rr..

secondly increase the drone bay of the galente logi so it can use 5 heavy armor rr drones...

3rd. change the 7.5% bonus to internal reps to also include external incoming reps... (basically ammar/caldari have a bonus to resistance which make internal/external rr more efficient gallente/minnie only have an internal rep bonus... if you make the external incoming rr have the same bonus as internal reps this will balance minnie/gallente to ammar/caldari...


4. blasters got a$$ buggered when the last speed nerf came... due to the mwd bloom being turned off by the scram...
to fix this we need hybrid ammo to give a tracking bonus like on minnie ammo...

5. fix blasters by making them close range arties... increase the base damage decrease the rof... decrease the clip size...

6. fix railguns by making them the highest long range dps platform... to do this increase base damage and rof by 15%... change the caldari 10% to turrets optimal range to 5% to rof... now you have the rokh doing 1000dps at 100km.. also increase railguns clip size to compensate

7. change the falloff bonus on galente ships to a mass reduction bonus... (this will make gallente ships faster and the most agile... basically the way they should be)

8.boost sensor damps to include a reduction of max targets... a tech I sensor damp will now decrease max target by 1. tech II by 1.5... (note you will allways be able to target one target regardless of sensor damps on you)

9. decease dreads siege time to 5 min also half the activation cost

10. introduce capital nuets/nos make them exclusive to dreads and tech II dreads... (note capital nuets/nos only work on other capital ships siege mode increases cap usuage/drain amount and range)

11. nerf sc by introducing tech II dreads called juggernauts... they can use capital nuets... they can tank 1 ddd.. they have resist bonus for caldari/ammar and repper bonus for gallente/minnie... they can use capital webbers (which only work on capital ships and can only be used on a super cap when in siege mode siege mode increases cap usuage and range) and they can jump out with 60% cap plus they use an infinity point when in siege mode... note that juggers will have the sensor strength of bs's...

12. introduce tech II tier II bc's called heavy bombers... let them use citidel torps heavy bombs(think capital bomb that only hit capital ships has really really slow explosion velocity) it can also use coverts ops cloak/bridge

13. nerf fb by making it so they cant shoot at pos objects including ihubs (this should be the dreads/juggers job)

14. give assault frigs a 4th bonus

Ogogov
Gallente
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.06.20 13:48:00 - [135]
 

ITT: Alot of discussion that has nothing to do with Logistics or Dramiels.

Let's try to make this effective and focused so CCP will give CCP Tallest a few other folks to help tackle larger issues. Because right now there's a couple of pages of comments on the Dram/Logi thing, and the rest of it is off-topic hurf-blurf about things we all know need attention, but are beyond the scope of this thread...

CCP Tallest

Posted - 2011.06.20 14:20:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: DarkAegix
are hybrids acknowledged as being weak?

They are on my list of things that need balancing.

Originally by: NosubstanceHere
How bout you fix sub-cap Gallente hulls?

They are also on my list.

Based on your feedback, I will take better look at the powergrid, capacitor and drone bay on the Dramiel as well as looking into whether or not the Oneiros needs a boost when compared to the other logistics ships.

Ineka
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.06.20 14:25:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: CCP Tallest
Originally by: DarkAegix
are hybrids acknowledged as being weak?

They are on my list of things that need balancing.

Originally by: NosubstanceHere
How bout you fix sub-cap Gallente hulls?

They are also on my list.

Based on your feedback, I will take better look at the powergrid, capacitor and drone bay on the Dramiel as well as looking into whether or not the Oneiros needs a boost when compared to the other logistics ships.


/lick

Saile Litestrider
Posted - 2011.06.20 15:46:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: CCP Tallest
Originally by: DarkAegix
are hybrids acknowledged as being weak?

They are on my list of things that need balancing.

Originally by: NosubstanceHere
How bout you fix sub-cap Gallente hulls?

They are also on my list.

Based on your feedback, I will take better look at the powergrid, capacitor and drone bay on the Dramiel as well as looking into whether or not the Oneiros needs a boost when compared to the other logistics ships.


I know you probably already have this under control, but please don't forget about the other hybrid ships, it's not just Gallente, and a lot of people seem to forget this. In particular, I'd love the rokh to finally be useful. It's such a cool ship, and it's so hard to do much with it.

Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.20 18:13:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: CCP Tallest
<snip>
as well as looking into whether or not the Oneiros needs a boost when compared to the other logistics ships.

The main problem is that it has the slot layout of a shield tanker trying to fit into an armour tanking setting. Swapping a mid slot to a low would go a long way, making it essentially a mirror image of the Scimitar.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.06.20 18:16:00 - [140]
 

I would test first how a dram with a nerfed dronebay would perform.
same stats as today but an axed dronebay. either cut down to 1/3 of it or total removal.

then if things are still not "quite enough", I would start with agility, test some more and then speed.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.06.20 19:08:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Lucas Quaan
Originally by: CCP Tallest
<snip>
as well as looking into whether or not the Oneiros needs a boost when compared to the other logistics ships.

The main problem is that it has the slot layout of a shield tanker trying to fit into an armour tanking setting. Swapping a mid slot to a low would go a long way, making it essentially a mirror image of the Scimitar.


I think the Oneiros would benefit from a smaller sig and greater mobility too - and maybe a larger sig and less mobility for the Guardian.

The reason to fly an Oneiros over a Guardian should be to do with mobility and damage evasion, in the same way that Scimitars can be favoured over Basilisks for their greater speed and smaller sig. While the Scimitar is faster and has a smaller sig than a Basilisk (90 m vs. 65 m), the Oneiros bizarrely has a larger sig and a greater base align time than the Guardian - 80 m vs. 70 m sig, and align times of 7.9 s and 7.2 s! That's just crazy.

At least the Oneiros has a speed advantage, but it's only 7 m/s base, relative to the Guardian - 268 m/s vs. 261 m/s. It should be closer to the speed advantage that the Scimitar has over the Basilisk - 316 m/s vs. 240 m/s.

Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.20 19:56:00 - [142]
 

Edited by: Raimo on 20/06/2011 19:57:03

Originally by: CCP Tallest
Originally by: DarkAegix
are hybrids acknowledged as being weak?

They are on my list of things that need balancing.

Originally by: NosubstanceHere
How bout you fix sub-cap Gallente hulls?

They are also on my list.

Based on your feedback, I will take better look at the powergrid, capacitor and drone bay on the Dramiel as well as looking into whether or not the Oneiros needs a boost when compared to the other logistics ships.


Good stuff!

Re: the Dram, I'd also suggest you reconsider nerfing locking range in addition to, or instead of scan resolution. I'd look into the stats of combat inties like the Claw and Taranis for inspiration here.

fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2011.06.20 20:41:00 - [143]
 

Edited by: fukier on 20/06/2011 20:47:29
does anyone else find it disturbing that a crusier can emote 334 dps tank out to 70km?
if you have lets say 10 of them you get 3340 tank out to 70km... and thats not even taking resists into the equation...
lets say you have 75% all round that means that 334 turns into 1336 tank per ship!!!!! multiply that by 10 and now you have 13360 dps tank out to 70km... thats crazy!!!

rr is way way way way way too op!

increase the fittings requirements for large rr mods... make it so only bs's can fit large rr!

a cruiser is a cruiser and its designed to use medium sized mods...
under the nerfed parameters we now have a logi cruiser doing 170 per ship that means 10 ships will now emote 1706 dps out to 51km... with the standard 75% resists this means each ship will emote 680 dps tank and 10 ships will emote 6800 dps tank...

this is the way it should be...

Alara IonStorm
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.20 21:00:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: CCP Tallest
Originally by: DarkAegix
are hybrids acknowledged as being weak?

They are on my list of things that need balancing.

Originally by: NosubstanceHere
How bout you fix sub-cap Gallente hulls?

They are also on my list.

Based on your feedback, I will take better look at the powergrid, capacitor and drone bay on the Dramiel as well as looking into whether or not the Oneiros needs a boost when compared to the other logistics ships.

My Hero.

ITTigerClawIK
Amarr
Galactic Rangers
Galactic-Rangers
Posted - 2011.06.20 21:17:00 - [145]
 

can we get a look into T1 Cruiser Hulls also , the omen needs some more grid and CPU room especuly for newer player getting into them, also the bellicouse needs a total rework

Cid Rush
Posted - 2011.06.20 21:41:00 - [146]
 

Hybrid weapons needs to be balance
If they are balance maybe Caldari ships wouldn't get laughed at for being used vs other race ship.

Besides from the drake for the ealier ships to be used Caldari ships seems to be under used vs all other races. I believe that is the cause of Hybrid weapons not being balance well with the projectile and laser weapons.


Alara IonStorm
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.20 21:44:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: ITTigerClawIK
can we get a look into T1 Cruiser Hulls also , the omen needs some more grid and CPU room especuly for newer player getting into them, also the bellicouse needs a total rework

^^ This ^^

Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.20 21:51:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: fukier
does anyone else find it disturbing that a crusier can emote 334 dps tank out to 70km?

No. Logistics is no more overpowered than any other type of specialised T2 cruiser ability. Furthermore they are vulnerable to neuts, ecm, damps and are generally a softer target than the ships they support.

Yes, a good logistics squad can swing a battle and let you fight at a numerical disadvantage. No, they are not invincible.

fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2011.06.20 22:13:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Lucas Quaan
Originally by: fukier
does anyone else find it disturbing that a crusier can emote 334 dps tank out to 70km?

No. Logistics is no more overpowered than any other type of specialised T2 cruiser ability. Furthermore they are vulnerable to neuts, ecm, damps and are generally a softer target than the ships they support.

Yes, a good logistics squad can swing a battle and let you fight at a numerical disadvantage. No, they are not invincible.


really 10 guardians can be hurt by nueting? how many baalagorns you need? so i can fit large guns on a crusier now? i can fit large armor reps on a crusier now? i can fit large propulsion on a crusiers now? the fact is logi ships are the only ones that can fit a full rack of large mods on it... and no i dont think it being vulnerable to ecm is enough of a counter to this... i did not say they were invincible i am saying that in thier current form they are op...

F1 F8
Posted - 2011.06.20 22:22:00 - [150]
 

Stop trolling this thread. You bring 10 logis, others will bring 10 dps ships, you diaf + cant kill anything, logis not op.


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