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Jaigar
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2011.06.12 18:48:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: mkint
Edited by: mkint on 11/06/2011 20:15:06
Regarding logi buff: the warp speed buff is alright I guess, but kinda meh unless you are in a very specific kind of fleet.

The biggest disparity between the guardian and the oneiros, the oneiros is limited by the fitting choices it must make that the Guardian does not need to make. An oneiros must choose between it's buffer (a 1600mm plate), it's RR bonus, and it's tracking link bonus. Oneiros can only run 2 of the 3 things it needs to be competitive with a Guardian, and the pilot even needs implants to even do that. A guardian can run all 3, it's 1600mm buffer, it's RR's and it's energy transfers, and it still ends up with a better speed and agility than the oneiros. The only advantage to the oneiros is that it has a higher potential RR, but it must sacrifice both tank and it's link bonus to get it. Increasing onei's power grid would make up for the differences. (I also wouldn't complain if it got a buff to it's tracking link bonus, but I don't see that being it's biggest weakness.)

Even with major Oneiros buffs, the oneiros would add to the weapons performance of a couple ships, but guardians can essentially make an entire fleet immune to capacitor warfare. Making onei tracking links into friendly AOE would make up for that difference, but would probably end up overpowered.

-onei needs 200 added to it's base PG to bring it more in line with the guardian. A 300 powergrid buff would do even more to bring it into line.

note: I don't fly shield tanks, but I'd imagine a scimitar could be looked at in the same way.

edit: just taking a look at basi vs scimi loadouts, a basi can take advantage of all it's bonuses and still have 60% more buffer than a scimi that is only taking advantage of 1 bonus. Looks like the scimi needs more midslots and more powergrid.


Theres several assumptions you make that are dangerous. First of is assuming that ships should be able to perform the same in the same scenarios. For example: when you compare the scimitar and bassy, you are looking at eHP. What you aren't looking at is how the scimi's speed and sig tank make is incredibly nice (one of the reasons they are so popular in the tourney). Now this same arguement doesnt hold with the oneiros because its slots and sig radius don't hold as well as the scimitar. HOWEVER, there are some pretty interesting things you can do with 2 guardian+oneiros with oneiros loaded with tracking links and receiving cap-transfers from the guardians. Be careful with EFT. Theres several factors you eliminate when you reduce a ship to only those numbers.
I think the oneiros needs some small buff, perhaps only a sig radius change down to 75 (and perhaps additional sensor strength). But thats it.

Also I would love a trimark change. Right now its definately way too strong. 1 trimark= 115%, 2 trimarks=132.25%, 3 trimarks= 152.0875%. The gain of using trimarks is just so signficant that any buffer armor ship has to use them. If you want to use any other type of rig your tank loss is just too significant.

And d

Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.12 19:08:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Raimo
self sufficient


Anyway, I don't disagree that the Oneiros couldn't use some form of love.

But the only direct ship changes asked about in the OP (for now, I hope) are for the Dramiel anyway... ;)

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.06.12 19:52:00 - [93]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 12/06/2011 19:52:28
It is perfectly valid to compare the Oneiros to the Guardian, because they both rep armor. The only even theoretical time you should be using an Oneiros over a Guardian is when you are the ONLY logistics on the field or you're doing the semi impractical 3 guardian/1 ony Incursion lolPVE thing. Again, I'd really like to see those tracking link bonuses get traded away for something that emphasizes the "solo logi" nature of the ships - which IMO points towards active tank bonuses.

And before anyone says anything, yes I have almost exclusively flown logistics for the last couple years. I've been in literally hundreds of fights - maybe a thousand or more - as the solo logi (under sentry fire, no less!). Fights that are small enough for a solo logi (even armor repping) exist, and are common. But I wouldn't use an Ony at this point... it just massively lacks survivability.

Suitonia
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.12 20:31:00 - [94]
 

The Onieros is just inherently badly designed. The first point is that the Onieros works much, much better fit like a Scimitar in a shield buffer tanked configuration, due to PG and mobility. This means that a pair of Onieros cannot really rep each-other like a pair of Scimitars could. Secondly Since 'roaming' Armor tanked ships don't really exist, at least they usually aren't worth using in small enough numbers where you'd just take Guardians.

I'm not really sure how you would 'fix' that. PG boost + some sort of wacky Plate mass reduction bonus? Would keep it mobile, armor tanked and with enough grid to actually fit 3 large remote reps. Still wouldn't really help it too much since there isn't really a roaming-armor tank gang format that can make use of it.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2011.06.12 21:23:00 - [95]
 

CCP tallest, you are now officially on my good list, along with team BFF and team Gridlock (as opposed to all the monkeys who came up with Incarna and PI, who are on my sh*tlist).

CCP tallest, you guys really, REALLY need to have a permanent balancing team. This is really critical to the game working well.

When you get around to fixing Hybrids, I will send you a six pack of decent beer.

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.06.12 22:20:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Bomberlocks

When you get around to fixing Hybrids, I will send you a six pack of decent beer.


I would also like to contribute to the CCP alcohol fund if hybrids/hybrid ships get a look-at.

Juliette DuBois
Posted - 2011.06.12 22:35:00 - [97]
 

For oneiros to be really viable it would need to have max rep ability much superior to guardian which has cap transfer chain on top of its reps which renders neuting almost useless against them. Just being resistant to common amarr ecm and working in single units is not enough to make it worth using.

Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov
The Eleusinian Mystery Cult
Posted - 2011.06.13 01:35:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: Mekhana
CCP Tallest you are quickly becoming my favorite dev.

I'm looking forward to hearing from you news from hybrids and Gallente ship changes.


This.

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
I would also like to contribute to the CCP alcohol fund if hybrids/hybrid ships get a look-at.


I'd be happy to spare a few euros for beer money. See CCP? Fix hybrids, get beer.

Mars Theran
Caldari
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.13 02:04:00 - [99]
 

Logistics changes look good so far, though I'd like to see them maintain a more capable combat presence.

Dramiel changes are awesome! Very Happy

@everyone else:

I don't know about Tallest, but I'm pretty much ignoring every other post here regarding different ships. There's a huge number of ships in this game, and you're completely detracting from the work at hand.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.06.13 02:13:00 - [100]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 13/06/2011 02:15:25
Originally by: Juliette DuBois
For oneiros to be really viable it would need to have max rep ability much superior to guardian which has cap transfer chain on top of its reps which renders neuting almost useless against them. Just being resistant to common amarr ecm and working in single units is not enough to make it worth using.


Working (well) in single units is ABSOLUTELY enough to make it worth using. The problem is that it really doesn't, because a solo logistics needs an active tank - which the Ony can't field.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.06.13 07:45:00 - [101]
 

Re: Logistics.

In addition to tweaks to Oneiros, why not cut the range bonus on the slugger/stationary logistics (Basilisk/Guardian) by 33-50%?

Reinforces the idea of Scimitar/Oneiros being the roamers choice and makes them valuable in their own right simple due to range advantage.


Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2011.06.13 09:43:00 - [102]
 

Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/06/2011 09:43:50
I know it's generally not developer policy to respond in F&I threads to avoid creating some unnatural focal points, but this thread is an official game development sticky for which player feedback was requested; if there's one situation where it's completely appropriate for you guys to reply to F&I posts, it's in these kinds of threads. Communication is a two way street, and to be honest, CCP as a whole is notoriously horrible at dialogue.

If you would make a point of replying to our points as time permits, it could be very beneficial to these types of discussions. Focal points are exactly what this balance thread needs, and we would love to know what you guys are thinking and why. The more we know about your chain of thought, the better our input can be.

Ramadawn
Posted - 2011.06.13 10:55:00 - [103]
 

I don't mind the speed so much. I do mind the DPS. And why does it have drones? Bring down the the DPS ALOT and get rid of the drones.

Also no faction frig should every be better than a T2 frig in the the T2s area of speciality. IE, inty should be fastest, and AF should do the most damage/have the best tank. Otherwise WHY have them?

and T1 frigates need to be made better. Simply for the sake of making new players more PVP competative.


Ogogov
Gallente
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.06.13 15:56:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov
Originally by: Mekhana
CCP Tallest you are quickly becoming my favorite dev.

I'm looking forward to hearing from you news from hybrids and Gallente ship changes.


This.

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
I would also like to contribute to the CCP alcohol fund if hybrids/hybrid ships get a look-at.


I'd be happy to spare a few euros for beer money. See CCP? Fix hybrids, get beer.


A dev, dedicated to balance issues?

MY DREAMS, THEY HAVE COME TRUE!!

In order to fix the content-less-ness of my posting:

The Dramiel changes look good but I do have to ask why it's got two drones.

Logistics buff is very welcome and yes, I do feel the poor old Oneiros needs a look.

Hun Jakuza
We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming
Posted - 2011.06.13 17:42:00 - [105]
 

Dramiel
It's too fast. Obvious dev is obvious. Specifically, the mass is far too low when compared to other frigates. The scan resolution is also very high for a non-interceptor and I want to lower that as well.

Mass: from 740,700 kg to 950,000 kg
Max Velocity: from 473m/s to 460m/s
Scan Resolution: from 990mm to 750mm


Need more speed nerfing to 430 m/s (this ship just a frig not interceptor) and their FPS is too high, so need more drone bandwidth nerfing to 5m3.

Hun Jakuza
We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming
Posted - 2011.06.13 17:48:00 - [106]
 

Oh i forgot. Please revise the Supercaps too, because those ships is the most unbalanced and overpowered ships in game.

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.13 19:08:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Re: Logistics.

In addition to tweaks to Oneiros, why not cut the range bonus on the slugger/stationary logistics (Basilisk/Guardian) by 33-50%?

Reinforces the idea of Scimitar/Oneiros being the roamers choice and makes them valuable in their own right simple due to range advantage.




what's the lore reason for nerfing guardian range exactly? I have no problem with some love for oneros.. as long as you don't make it the guardian with a different skin..or worse the guardian replacement of the month.

Rastigan
Caldari
Ars ex Discordia
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.06.14 01:18:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Sannikoff
I suggest to start Hybrid weapon


THIS PLEASE...

Mars Theran
Caldari
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.14 07:11:00 - [109]
 

Edited by: Mars Theran on 14/06/2011 07:57:49
Originally by: Hun Jakuza
Dramiel
It's too fast. Obvious dev is obvious. Specifically, the mass is far too low when compared to other frigates. The scan resolution is also very high for a non-interceptor and I want to lower that as well.

Mass: from 740,700 kg to 950,000 kg
Max Velocity: from 473m/s to 460m/s
Scan Resolution: from 990mm to 750mm


Need more speed nerfing to 430 m/s (this ship just a frig not interceptor) and their FPS is too high, so need more drone bandwidth nerfing to 5m3.



If you're going to drop it to one small drone, get rid of them entirely. I hate ships that have a deranged drone capacity. Stabber = 5m3 & 5 Mb/s bandwidth? That's just absurd; move the DPS over to the weapons. One drone small isn't even worth releasing and controlling; I'm not entirely sure two is on anything but a Frigate.

Cruisers should have minimum 3 small or none, Battle Cruisers at least 3 Medium, and Battleships should always field at least 3 Large Drones. Alternative always being move Drone DPS to a Weapon bonus, or anything that calculates to better weapon DPS in some fashion, be it range, tracking, ROF, or Damage Multiplier. Just my opinion.

To iterate on this, I would actually change the Drone bandwidth requirements, (to balance what a ship can field vs. what it can carry), to the following:

Small Drones would remain at 5 Mb/s
Medium would Drop to 7.5 Mb/s.
Large would drop to 20 Mb/s.
Sentries would remain at 25 Mb/s.

Drone Capacities and Drone Bandwidths would be changed to suit this adjustment.

Example Incursus Modification:

10 m3 Drone Capacity; 10 Mb/s Drone Bandwidth

Can Field 2 Small, with Capacity for 2.
or Field 1 Medium, with Capacity for 1.

Example Stabber Modification:

20 m3 Drone Capacity; 15 Mb/s Drone Bandwidth

Can Field 3 Small, with Capacity for 4.
or Field 2 Medium with Capacity for 2.

Example Ferox Modification:

40 m3 Drone Capacity; 30 Mb/s Drone Bandwidth.

Can Field 5 Small, while carrying 8.
or Field 4 Medium, carrying 4.
or Field 1 Large or 1 Sentry Drones, with Capacity for 1 + 15 m3.

Example Raven Modification:

75 m3 Drone Capacity; 60 Mb/s Drone Bandwidth.

Can Field 5 Small, with Capacity for 15.
or Field 5 Medium, with Capacity for 7 + 5 m3.
or Field 3 Large or 2 Sentry Drones, with Capacity for 3.

Just a thought.

Hun Jakuza
We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming
Posted - 2011.06.14 08:13:00 - [110]
 

Another suggestions.

Please change the capital online. Increase supercaps and titan build times.
Super Capitals building times is too short and their costs is too low, now we seeing 300+ supcaps fleets. As the old drakes fleet. This is horrible for small alliances in 0.0 and this is make superblobs and superlags.

The SC numbers groving with +300 every single months.

When CCP changed 0.0 they told to us, they want more small entities in 0.0, but when they changed motherships, no chanches to survive for small corps or alliances there.
Need to slowing this supercapital trends.

Nikuno
Posted - 2011.06.14 08:32:00 - [111]
 

The change to warp speed for logistics might make it more consistent internally but will change nothing about the ships' performance or use. As such I see it as a cosmetic tweak tbh and nothing to do with balancing, leaving the important imbalances within the ship class that need to be addressed to be ignored for years to come. The only fix I can see for logistic ships to become balanced is for the tracking link bonus to be replaced by something more useful to the ship role. Cap transfer is an obvious aid to the primary repair role of these ships, enhancing the tracking of other ships is an altogether different function and doesn't sit comfortably with the primary role as a remote repair ship.

The dramiel needs to lose some of it's omnipotence in the frigate class. For me the removal of 1 or 2 drones on top of the changes mentioned would achieve that nicely.

Finally, as an extra balancing act if you're looking into it, how about addressing the Eris? Just swapping the (7?) high slots to be purely hybrid based would be a decent starting point (this would set it on a par with the sabre, purely from a weaponry balance point, though it would still be lacking in other regards given the 2mid /4 low slot layout). The missile slots make the ship third class and I really would like to see some reason to begin using these (leaving aside the general discussion about hybrid imbalance).

However it pans out, I'm at least encouraged that some of the niggly little imbalances are at least being looked at by CCP and our opinion sought - I just hope some of the players' vision makes it into the end changes.

Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.14 10:53:00 - [112]
 

FWIW, still regarding the Dram, what I'd most want to see - after these changes to it (though lockrange instead/ in addition to scan resolution+somehow additionally nerfing it's fitting/cap/damage output) - what I would most love to see would be a 5-15% speed increase across all of the frigate and cruiser classes, balanced accordingly.

Maybe even improving fitting for speed a tad? :D

Speed is fun and it would *definitely* improve the solo and small gang gameplay experience bringing back some of the fun that was lost in the nano nerf, please do consider this CCP! (and no I don't want old nanos back but ATM the game could definitely use some more mobile boats, and the game does need some balance changes to keep things fresh for all)

Oh and hybrids ofc

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.15 05:41:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Hun Jakuza
Another suggestions.

Please change the capital online. Increase supercaps and titan build times.
Super Capitals building times is too short and their costs is too low, now we seeing 300+ supcaps fleets. As the old drakes fleet. This is horrible for small alliances in 0.0 and this is make superblobs and superlags.

The SC numbers groving with +300 every single months.

When CCP changed 0.0 they told to us, they want more small entities in 0.0, but when they changed motherships, no chanches to survive for small corps or alliances there.
Need to slowing this supercapital trends.


The capital ship building array should not be a closed box. It should be open and anyone on grid with it should be able to see what is being built and how far along it is. Timer on ship completion. Just one of many things that could be done...

Hun Jakuza
We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming
Posted - 2011.06.15 06:47:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Marlona Sky
Originally by: Hun Jakuza
Another suggestions.

Please change the capital online. Increase supercaps and titan build times.
Super Capitals building times is too short and their costs is too low, now we seeing 300+ supcaps fleets. As the old drakes fleet. This is horrible for small alliances in 0.0 and this is make superblobs and superlags.

The SC numbers groving with +300 every single months.

When CCP changed 0.0 they told to us, they want more small entities in 0.0, but when they changed motherships, no chanches to survive for small corps or alliances there.
Need to slowing this supercapital trends.


The capital ship building array should not be a closed box. It should be open and anyone on grid with it should be able to see what is being built and how far along it is. Timer on ship completion. Just one of many things that could be done...


That's not solve the super caps problems, need to change their price to minimum 30-35 billions and build times to 2x or 3x times longer.

Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.15 08:05:00 - [115]
 

I think someone mentioned it already, but it could be interesting to swap the tracking link bonus on the Oneiros/Scimitar to a hefty active tanking bonus, along the lines where a medium T2 rep/booster would equal 2-3 large remote reps tanked. That would be great for small gangs (5-10 pilots) where you are the only logi.

It is a bigger change and would probably have to be balanced to avoid abuse with large/XL reps like we saw with the AB suggestion for assault frigs, but it adds to their flavour and is overall far more useful than the current one.

DeadDuck
Amarr
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.15 10:08:00 - [116]
 

Can you guys take a look on the sacrilege please and expand the bonuses to Heavy Missiles ? The Sacrilege is the only ship in is class that is not able to fire at more then 35km without loosing 1 of their bonuses... All the other Hacs can do it.

Thank you


Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:10:00 - [117]
 

Can we please try and get this back on topic to the Dramiel/logistics change?
Making the devs have to sift through posts on supercarriers and Gallente is not going to make this go any faster.

Hrug
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.16 13:46:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: Marlona Sky
Edited by: Marlona Sky on 12/06/2011 05:46:24
...

5. EAS - They are too paper thin.

...

7. EW drones - ECM drones need a nerf. Introduce small and medium web drones. Buff the other EW drones to bring them in line with the hopefully nerfed ECM drones.



+1

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:57:00 - [119]
 

As for the dramiel change, not really sure if it is enough to given that he still fields a lot of DPS with a very high range but I guess I leave this discussion to people that fly more frigs than I do.

I'm glad at the changes to the logis, Oneiros does need some help. As others pointed out there are hardly situations where it would be sensible to chose a oneiros over a guardian since the gang type he has to work with tends to be rather slow anyway.

Back in the day before QR, the oneiros was nearly ok, you could nano it reasonable well and the speed and range tank did give you a rather good defense against other sluggish targets. However a lot has changed since this time.

In general it would need more PG, a bit more base speed and a lot better cap to make better use of the meds with a armor tank than filling them with cap rechargers or to be more stable in a shield tank nano fit.

A extra 50m of dronebay wouldn't hurt to carry reserve drones for RR(what make a considerable amount of his repping power that is not preventable by ECM or damps) and giving it some room for spare light drones for self defense purpose against tacklers(since a single logi can't archive survivability by RR if he uses range as his defense, it should have other options preventing the enemy from taking it out of the fight quickly).

Also double his RR drone amount bonus would help it to get even with the Guardian on repping power(4 + 1.5 in drones vs 5 + 0.5 in drones as LRR count).

Active tanking bonuses are a rather bad idea on it, since they are useless as soon as you work with more than one logi(what will be most of the time) and it puts even more pressure on his limited cap. Resistance bonuses would have some merit as they also work well together with incoming rep and improve his EHP.

fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2011.06.16 20:09:00 - [120]
 

Edited by: fukier on 16/06/2011 20:11:16
this is just fluff... but what if they made the gallente logi have a cap recharge bonus? or how about higher sensor strength so it does not need eccm?

i am not sure about liangs idea about a repper bonus... maybe a hp bonus?

personally i think logis are way too op... its kinda bull that i can fit a full rack of large rr on my cruiser... i would much rather see all logis get nerfed so they can only use medium sized rr... but thats just me...

as for the dram fix... yeah get rid of its drone aswell and now you have a all round good ship... as it stands now its way to hard to kill them... but somepeople are pretty good at it... the problem is with balance when you nerf something you now have someother ship becomming the new fotm... but i guess we can address this when and if the next op ship becomes used too much...

edit: to the guys post above me... hells yeah i like the idea of the gal logi getting a bigger drone bay to use lets say 5 heavy rep bots? that could help with its short commings


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