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Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.11 21:37:00 - [61]
 

@ the op, great news!

I think the Dram change suggested is one decent way of looking at it, but could do well combined with some additional slight nerfs - capacitor and lockrange could easily be toned down in addition to the changes in the OP without it going too far, maybe powergrid or drone bay as well. IMHO the agility nerf could be less than suggested though, having the agility to me is "personality" like someone suggested ;)

Logistics warp speed change is ofc welcome as well.

Next up some Hybrid love maybe?

Suitonia
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.11 22:11:00 - [62]
 

As mentioned, the problem with the Dramiel is that it does too many things at the same time.

1. It has Dual Propulsion, while fielding a Medium Shield Extender.
2. It is the fastest ship in the game, while having fantastic "edge of scram range" DPS. Due to 3x Light Drones as well as falloff and tracking bonused autocannons.
3. The Dramiel does a lot of DPS without even fitting damage mods. Due to Drones, Double bonused turrets with falloff/tracking bonuses. Although a lot of Dramiels often fit a Gyrostabiliser, they can easily forgo it for more speed/PG or other advantages.

Overall, the combination of near-AF EHP, Better than interceptor speed, while featuring dual propulsion makes it the best kiting ship in the game, It has fantastic tracking, as well as drones so even if the majority of competitive t2 fit PvP interceptors/AFs/Frigates start the fight at 0 meters with it, it still wins since it can highten traversal easily without minimising it's own DPS. It also is one the most damaging frigates, almost on par with the Taranis while being faster, having twice the EHP, triple the range and a utility neut.

I would like to see a Midslot Swapped for a lowslot. Leave the speed alone, although the agility should be brought back in line to around 3.1s base. Remove the tracking bonus and swap it for a turret damage bonus 7.5/10% per level, and remove the drone bay.

What this does is the following;
- The Dramiel now has to choose between Dual Propulsion, or a Medium shield extender. Meaning that if it wants to be good at escaping and kiting in scram range, it has to sacrifice effective hit points making it more vulnerable. If the Dramiel wants to fit a Plate it has to sacrifice more PG and Speed for the EHP advantage. If it chooses to go with Ab/Scram/MSE it is more vulnerable running gate camps and to MWD/point kiting ships like Crow/Slicer etc. and more vulnerable to LR tacklers.
- The Dramiel's DPS is now all turret based. And with a 10% damage bonus per level it should be on par, slightly better than when it had to rely on drones. It now gets more benefit when fitting damage modules, but it also finds itself having more issues with tracking when facing ships at 0m, its not as good at killing drones meaning it's more vulnerable to bigger ships in scram range, and isn't as good at sitting at 20km with LR point zooming around at 6km/s doing 100dps+ with artys/drones.

TL;DR the Dramiel will still be fast, a very effective tackler and a high dps, high speed frigate. It will no-longer be able to kill everything or run from everything that it cannot. Making it take more risks when it engages and forcing it to come in closer to do more damage, as opposed to sitting at 7km the entire fight.

As an added bonus, the Minmatar Firetail now brings something unique to the Dramiel (4 mids) and isn't completely obsoleted by it. The Dramiel still boosts being the fastest ship in the game, and still has a unique high speed high damage feel.

Sassy B
Kenssy Fried Chicken Kru
Posted - 2011.06.11 22:18:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Captain Nares
Don't like dramiel changes.

Why it is too fast and agile? It is Angel ship, it must be fast. But you gonna nerf its speed for some reason.

Why it is so fat? My Dramiel has 7.5k HP (almost as an AF!). No answer.

Why it has so high DPS (270 overloaded, more than most AF). No answer.

I expected you to make it weaker in terms of dps and tank, not slower. Try to appoach the problem from another side.

I dont need to post cos this guy did it for me.

Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2011.06.11 22:36:00 - [64]
 

Came up on a related thread. Outside the scope of simple balancing but might be a good thing to look at long term:

Originally by: Alekseyev Karrde
Originally by: MeBiatch
hmm... i would rather see capital nuets put on dreads......

as for sub cap anti cap ship... make a techII tier II bc called heavy bombers... let them fire citadel torps and give them a covert ops cloak and cyno and a bomb luancher...

presto you now have a sub cap anti cap ship... plus you have a sub cap that can effectivly shoot at towers and structures.... (ths would be awesome for wh space)


Yes to capital grade neuts

Infinite yes to a T2 BC that can use the BOPS portal. I think a Heavy Bomber would be an excellent use of it, though I'd swap the bomb launcher for a bomb launcher that hurls interdiction spheres (or something similar). A Black Ops anti capital/supercapital ship would spice things up for sure

mkint
Posted - 2011.06.11 22:42:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: mkint
Looks like the scimi needs more midslots and more powergrid.


Nonsense logic leads to nonsense conclusions. There's nothing the matter with the Scimitar. Also, your comparison fo Oneiros with Guardian is absurd - you should be comparing the Oneiros with the Scimitar.




Okay, now that's all kinds of stupid. The choice is never ever ever "should I bring an oneiros or a scimi to this armor fleet" the choice is "should I bring an oneiros or a guardian." Right now the guardian has the better buffer and makes your fleet nearly immune to capacitor warfare, oneiros dies easier and has a wasted bonus.

Between basi and scimi, I don't know why anyone would fly a scimi as it appears to have the same problems the onei has but worse. I don't fly either shield logi though, so I couldn't say exactly how to bring it into balance.

However, by your ignorant trolling, I'm guessing you've never had to make the decision of what logi to have along in a fleet.

Soon Shin
Posted - 2011.06.11 23:02:00 - [66]
 

Scimitars are used because of their small sig, cap stability solo, and fast speed.

They excel in roaming and shield nano gangs. A scimitar with an AB can easily reach past 800m/s Though I admit their tracking link bonus is useless.

Podcat
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.12 00:04:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Podcat on 12/06/2011 00:13:20
Edited by: Podcat on 12/06/2011 00:10:19
Speed nerf looks ok but isnt enough to balance the frigate class. It needs powergrid nerf to make it harder to fit mse+200mm guns and the falloff bonus needs to be removed because it makes the ship much too strong at scram edge without any weakness up close because of tracking bonus. I dont mind the slot layout though.

Also instead of scan res lower lockrange to that of taranis to make interceptors better as gang tackle

Tracking link bonus is useful its just that few people bother to try it

Sino Sarn
THORN Syndicate
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.06.12 00:49:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: CCP Tallest
Hello EVE players. I'm CCP Tallest and I'll be doing some much needed ship balancing in the coming months. Being on Team BFF, aka "the little things" team, I wanted to start with some low-hanging fruit and work my way up to the bigger balancing issues. These changes are not set in stone and I would very much like to hear what you think of them. Without further ado, here is what I'm thinking so far:

Lostistics
The thing that really stands out is the warp speed. It's lower than all the other tech 2 cruisers and that's just not cool.

Ship Warp Speed: from 3 AU/S to 3.75 AU/s


Dramiel
It's too fast. Obvious dev is obvious. Specifically, the mass is far too low when compared to other frigates. The scan resolution is also very high for a non-interceptor and I want to lower that as well.

Mass: from 740,700 kg to 950,000 kg
Max Velocity: from 473m/s to 460m/s
Scan Resolution: from 990mm to 750mm

Non-modified MWDII speed would go from 5,058m/s to 4,292m/s
Non-modified ABII speed would go from 1,797m/s to 1,578m/s
Aligning speed will go from 3.2s to 4.1s
Dramiel will still be the fastest frigate, but will go from 1. to 2. place in align-speed (after Daredevil)

Disclaimer: I know that there are many other things that are in need of balancing. I've started with these two because I had to start somewhere and the solutions to these seemed relatively simple compared to other ships/classes. Other ships/classes will also be rebalanced in the coming months.

Disclaimer II: We do not have a release date for any ship balancing changes at this point, but it will definitely not be released in the upcoming Incarna patch.



Are you seriously talking about ~balance~ and NOT supers????????

Kalia Masaer
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Posted - 2011.06.12 01:48:00 - [69]
 

CCP Tallest did say he was starting out with the easy changes first, supers are certainly not easy as they first need a concept for a role they are supposed to fill.

The changes are probably not enough but I would much rather incremental changes that get a good balance than simply creating a flavor of the patch like it was with nano's then lasers then AC's. I can say each time those massive changes came into effect it meant everyone had suddenly wasted all their training time before.

Slight tweaks until you get things right is the way to go CCP Tallest, its a lot harder to go wrong then.

Dram changes seem sound and could easily be tweaked further in the future if it is nescessary and I'll enjoy warping a little faster as a logi when it is time to run for my life.

Phoebus ApolloX
Posted - 2011.06.12 02:09:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Phoebus ApolloX on 12/06/2011 02:10:29
I've always felt the more evasive a ship is the less offensive power it should have, the game's biggest issue with combat is that evasionary tactics make most fighting very non-committal (too easy to get out for many popular engagement styles). The dramiel should not be a solo pvp ship at the speeds it can reach, I have no issue having a ship that can go that fast, it just should have next to no actual ability to deal dps if it can (it should be well below the average interceptor or assault frig's dps). Something that fast should only be practically a scout and a point for a gang and be unable to fight unsupported (as should most frigs). However slowing the ship down to put it more in-line with other frigs is also an acceptable option imho.

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.12 02:27:00 - [71]
 

Edited by: Marlona Sky on 12/06/2011 05:46:24
1. You need to nerf the Dramiels power grid a bit. The ability to fit dual propulsion, medium shield extender, damage control and tackle is just over the top.

2. This game has become all about remote reps. Ships that receive a personal repair bonus are instantly passed up in favor of ships with a resistant bonus or HP increase bonus. It was suggested in a thread that the personal rep amount bonus should also include repairs incoming as well. This might help a bit to add more ships as an option to todays fleet fights.

3. When comparing the Oneiros to the Guardian the Guardian wins on all aspects of an armor logistics. More armor, better resists, better fitting, at max skills you even have a spare remote every transfer to help out. The Oneiros does not rely on a cap buddy but fitting a tank is next to impossible. Buff its power grid a lot!

4. How tall is CCP Tallest.

5. EAS - They are too paper thin.

6. Sensor strength on Marauders needs to be unnerfed. One of the reasons no one likes to fly them for PvP is because one light ecm drone makes the ship irrelevant for as long as it likes.

7. EW drones - ECM drones need a nerf. Introduce small and medium web drones. Buff the other EW drones to bring them in line with the hopefully nerfed ECM drones.

8. All Gallente non-drone bonus ships should get a larger drone bay. When a tier 1 battleship from another race can carry and field just as many drones as a tier 2 Gallente battleship, something is wrong. Yes there is a crap ton of other stuff wrong with Gallente but I don't want this to be over looked either. The drone bay buff should also include Serpentis ships as well.

9. ECM - Total redesign. Locking a target is such a critical thing in almost every aspect of combat. Not being able to lock anything for 20 seconds is game breaking. Change it to not being able to activate highslot modules or something. Maybe make gang links and drone control units immune. Bottom line is it needs to be completely replaced.

10. Helios - Take away a mid slot and move it to the high slots. It is the only covert ops that can't cloak, probe and open a cyno at the same time. :(

Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.12 02:58:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Marlona Sky
Edited by: Marlona Sky on 12/06/2011 02:52:14
1. You need to nerf the Dramiels power grid a bit. The ability to fit dual propulsion, medium shield extender, damage control and tackle is just over the top.

2. This game has become all about remote reps. Ships that receive a personal repair bonus are instantly passed up in favor of ships with a resistant bonus or HP increase bonus. It was suggested in a thread that the personal rep amount bonus should also include repairs incoming as well. This might help a bit to add more ships as an option to todays fleet fights.



This, so much.

Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.12 05:10:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Raimo on 12/06/2011 06:13:10

Originally by: Don Pellegrino
Originally by: Marlona Sky

2. This game has become all about remote reps. Ships that receive a personal repair bonus are instantly passed up in favor of ships with a resistant bonus or HP increase bonus. It was suggested in a thread that the personal rep amount bonus should also include repairs incoming as well. This might help a bit to add more ships as an option to todays fleet fights.



This, so much.


Yes. it's a great idea.

Originally by: Podcat

Speed nerf looks ok but isnt enough to balance the frigate class. It needs powergrid nerf to make it harder to fit mse+200mm guns and the falloff bonus needs to be removed because it makes the ship much too strong at scram edge without any weakness up close because of tracking bonus. I dont mind the slot layout though.

Also instead of scan res lower lockrange to that of taranis to make interceptors better as gang tackle



And this! Slight PG nerf would be ok I guess, as well as maybe removing falloff but greatly reducing lockrange *in addition* to scan res would be very good IMO.

BTW Blackhorizon is wrong, most frigates will be fine (especially against larger stuff) after a Dram tone-down, but I'd still definitely look at *slightly* boosting the "weakest" frigates too (some AFs, most EAFs and maybe even some T1 and faction, oh and destroyer hulls) Heh, that being said I wouldn't mind a 5-10% overall frigate speed boost ;)

...But in any case I'm of the opinion that you should do smaller tweaks more often instead of one hit/miss balancing and then leaving things hanging for years. Also, the game really *needs* small ship/ module balance changes every year and large overall PVP gameplay changes (or sweeping balance changes) every few years IMHO, to keep things fresh. It has now been a few years, a big change like the "speed nerf" would be long overdue to keep veteran players interested in PVP and subbed. (Decent suggestions for the next slightly larger changes are to be found in the hybrid/ gallente department IMHO, maybe tier 1/2 BCs as a whole too)

At this stage there are not many new fits or tactics to be discovered (at least solo/small gang) and most people use the "standard" or "optimal" fits so the game has gotten stale. (+ doublestale because most frigates soloing or tackling for gangs are Dramiels)

Scar O'ltala
Posted - 2011.06.12 06:31:00 - [74]
 

Reduce dramiel's power-grid, plz.Twisted Evil

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.06.12 09:14:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: mkint


Okay, now that's all kinds of stupid. The choice is never ever ever "should I bring an oneiros or a scimi to this armor fleet" the choice is "should I bring an oneiros or a guardian." Right now the guardian has the better buffer and makes your fleet nearly immune to capacitor warfare, oneiros dies easier and has a wasted bonus.

Between basi and scimi, I don't know why anyone would fly a scimi as it appears to have the same problems the onei has but worse. I don't fly either shield logi though, so I couldn't say exactly how to bring it into balance.

However, by your ignorant trolling, I'm guessing you've never had to make the decision of what logi to have along in a fleet.


Generally, when questioning someone else's credibility, it's not a good idea to completely demolish your own in the same breath.

The problem with the Oneiros is that the fast armour gangs that it would be best employed in support of - analogous to the way that Scimitars are better than Basilisks for supporting fast shield gangs - don't exist, because "armour" and "speed" are difficult to reconcile. You won't solve that problem by changing the Oneiros.

Laevateinn
Elanus Risk Control
Cognitive Distortion
Posted - 2011.06.12 09:15:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Marlona Sky
2. This game has become all about remote reps. Ships that receive a personal repair bonus are instantly passed up in favor of ships with a resistant bonus or HP increase bonus. It was suggested in a thread that the personal rep amount bonus should also include repairs incoming as well. This might help a bit to add more ships as an option to todays fleet fights.

It would add more ships into fights that are, but it still wouldn't fix the overriding issue that fleets these days have large logistics backbones, and that even a single logistics ship can tank a ship against 3-4, even 5 other ships depending on what the enemy brings. So when there are 15+ logistics, the numbers needed to fight on par with it escalate rapidly, commeth the blob. I'm not saying that Logistics should be penalized, but in such numbers, it's like a force multiplier without a limit.

That's probably the way it should be since damage isn't capped purely by numbers, but I'd probably reduce the amount repaired by RR modules by about 20-30%, or impose a stacking penalty. One designed in such a way that it wouldn't affect the small gang with a few logistics, but one that would scale up against larger blobs. The Oneiros also needs some adjustments to be easier cap stable in line with the Scimitar, it's shield counterpart, either through increased fitting and capacitor possibilities, or make it a better repairer to compensate for its lower speed and cap instability. Remote repairing someone in combat should also give an aggression status, something to start breaking up the neutral RR problem. (But this is it's own dead horse, flogged many a time and sadly no progress)

Amy Elteam
Posted - 2011.06.12 10:01:00 - [77]
 

Some easy balance changes

* Mining barges & exhumers warp at 6AU/Sec - reduce this to 3AU/Sec like every other medium sized ship, except in the case of the Skiff which is supposed to be more agile.
* Mining Barges are all 3750m^3 packaged, they should be bigger - 5k for a Procurer/Skiff, 10k for Retriever/Mack, 15k for Covetor/Hulk
* Orcas should have their warp speed dropped maybe to 2AU/Sec to be more consistent with their size.
* Give the Ibis missile launcher hardpoints so caldari noobs can use missles on their noobship.
* Switch the laser Cap use bonus on the Impairor to be a laser damage bonus, it's practically impossible to tax the capacitor on this ship using the lasers that fit (given the tiny power grid).
* Supercarriers should have their primary skill requirement of Capital Ships 1 raised to Capital Ships 4, since Capital ships 3 is a pre-req for the secondary skill requirement

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.12 10:55:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: mkint


Okay, now that's all kinds of stupid. The choice is never ever ever "should I bring an oneiros or a scimi to this armor fleet" the choice is "should I bring an oneiros or a guardian." Right now the guardian has the better buffer and makes your fleet nearly immune to capacitor warfare, oneiros dies easier and has a wasted bonus.

Between basi and scimi, I don't know why anyone would fly a scimi as it appears to have the same problems the onei has but worse. I don't fly either shield logi though, so I couldn't say exactly how to bring it into balance.

However, by your ignorant trolling, I'm guessing you've never had to make the decision of what logi to have along in a fleet.


Generally, when questioning someone else's credibility, it's not a good idea to completely demolish your own in the same breath.

The problem with the Oneiros is that the fast armour gangs that it would be best employed in support of - analogous to the way that Scimitars are better than Basilisks for supporting fast shield gangs - don't exist, because "armour" and "speed" are difficult to reconcile. You won't solve that problem by changing the Oneiros.


Well... a radical idea that would change the face of fleet combat forever would be to have every ship take longer and longer to lock a target as more and more people start locking the same target.

First it would mean in a large scale fight, one FC calling primary and secondary targets would be impossible as it would take forever and a day for a couple hundred ships to try and lock the same target. Think of it like simulated line of sight combat. Squad leaders leading their own squad of ships going after separate targets than the other squads would become more practical. No longer would the fleet that has the most combined EHP and logistical backbone determine the outcome of the fight. Personal repair ships would be a viable option. Mixed fleets. The list goes on and on.

It would be a glorious ball of chaos, flashes of lights as ships explode at the same time. A real space battle. Not this bull**** we have now where the whole fleet align to a celestial object and with little to no brain powered presses F1, F2, F3 and broadcasts for reps if he is called primary. Maybe even blasters would be usefully because you don't have to worry about being alpha'd in three seconds so you have time to get in face **** range.

Anyways, I'm getting carried away with dreaming how much more dynamic and fun large fleet fights could be. Am I the only one who would like combat to change into something like that?

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.06.12 11:19:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 12/06/2011 11:21:16
Quote:
I personally don't mind the dramiel being so fast and so agile, what bothers me is that it can do all the things on that list at the same time.


This is also what bothers me. There should be some kind of tradeoff for that kind of speed, and Angel ships just don't have it.

One of the most common counter-whines from Dramiel pilots is "oh it's ok, because a Daredevil will still kill it" - well if anything, needing an even more expensive and far more nich pirate frigate to kill the first one is a bad sign in and of itself.

Speed nerf is an excellent start, and it should remain a fast frigate, but the vesatility of that ship does border on ridiculous and there should be some drawback to flying it. (And no, cost is not a drawback. ISK is not a balancing factor. Don't believe me? Look at supercarriers.)

Quote:
- I expected a bigger dram nerf, tbh. But, baby steps are good steps as long as you guys are willing to iterate on them in a reasonable timeframe.


Also wanted to mention how much I agree with this. It's fantastic to see CCP taking an interest in the smaller aspects of balancing this game, and I look forward to seeing what else is on the cards for later patches Very Happy

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.06.12 12:51:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: mkint
Looks like the scimi needs more midslots and more powergrid.


Nonsense logic leads to nonsense conclusions. There's nothing the matter with the Scimitar. Also, your comparison fo Oneiros with Guardian is absurd - you should be comparing the Oneiros with the Scimitar.




Don't look at the base stats but what you can do with, I don't like that much some scimi remoting my triple plated vindi, or an oneiros remoting my tengu.
So compare the guardian with the oneiros and the scimi with the basilisk seems apropriate. Now if you whant to discuss about ship's stats and bringing them at the same level then we must put them all together.

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.06.12 14:13:00 - [81]
 

Quote:
Don't look at the base stats but what you can do with, I don't like that much some scimi remoting my triple plated vindi, or an oneiros remoting my tengu. So compare the guardian with the oneiros and the scimi with the basilisk seems apropriate. Now if you whant to discuss about ship's stats and bringing them at the same level then we must put them all together.


You're missing the point in a pretty epic way here. You're looking at it as:
Armour - Shield

When it's actually more like
Used in big groups - more mobile/independant.

Both the Basilisk and Scimitar rep shields, but the way they actually work in a gang is rather different. Same principle with the Oneiros and Guardian.

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.06.12 14:37:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote:
Don't look at the base stats but what you can do with, I don't like that much some scimi remoting my triple plated vindi, or an oneiros remoting my tengu. So compare the guardian with the oneiros and the scimi with the basilisk seems apropriate. Now if you whant to discuss about ship's stats and bringing them at the same level then we must put them all together.


You're missing the point in a pretty epic way here. You're looking at it as:
Armour - Shield

When it's actually more like
Used in big groups - more mobile/independant.

Both the Basilisk and Scimitar rep shields, but the way they actually work in a gang is rather different. Same principle with the Oneiros and Guardian.


Pretty sure I'm totally missing the point in a very Epic way, but the fact is the Guardian cover all the fields better than the Oneiros. I see Guardians in low, scimis and basilisks, I never see an Oneiros een if OC I'm not everywhere in the game.
Hell even in SISI I haven't seen a single one while Guardians yes.

Is it really interesting to start EFT'ing when it's pretty obvious one is over used and the other don't or rarely?
Scimis I see them often in low/null and hell even in high sec, Basilisks they're every where, Guardians you don't need to go far way from jita 4-4, rens, dodixie and the chock gates to see plenty of them has neutral reps for griefers of all kinds.

Now when you cross one Oneiros at those points please send me an IG e-mail so I can screen shot it. Are you still sure I'm missing the point?

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.06.12 14:38:00 - [83]
 

Way out-of-box thought (read: smelly brain-fart)

New bonus for Oneiros and Scimitar in place of the tracking link one:
X%/level of incoming damage is converted into capacitor energy through transducers installed in the shield generators.

Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.12 15:04:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Swynet
Are you still sure I'm missing the point?


Yep, the Oneiros is p much fine for an agile self sufficient small gang repper, only problem is that in current eve agile and armor tanking don't usually mix - like someone pointed out. So rebalance the drawbacks of armor and shield tanking so that armor tanks are viable for fast skirmish gangs as well, then see how many Oneiroses are about.

Anyway, I'm hoping the devs are reading the Dram discussion here and elsewhere, hopefully we will see some added changes as well as those in the OP like lock range nerf in addition OR INSTEAD of scan resolution (17km base lockrange would be lovely) and slight fitting or DPS nerfs etc... As well as a culture of re-visiting and re-evaluating changes periodically!

Mekhana
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2011.06.12 17:21:00 - [85]
 

CCP Tallest you are quickly becoming my favorite dev.

I'm looking forward to hearing from you news from hybrids and Gallente ship changes.

Dragons revenge
Posted - 2011.06.12 17:28:00 - [86]
 

hello CCP Tallest, I think that if we incorporate EFT with EVE somehow would really be a big deal. For example, adding it to when your sitting in station. Testing your fits and seeing in station how it looks. Based on upcoming Incaria, maybe in pilots quarters. Now of course, it would not have to be EFT just a program like it. I use EFT so that im not spending all my cold hard isk on modules that will not help me. Best Regards, Dragons RevengeRolling Eyes

Marketeerer
Posted - 2011.06.12 17:35:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Raimo

in current eve agile and armor tanking don't usually mix - like someone pointed out. So rebalance the drawbacks of armor and shield tanking so that armor tanks are viable for fast skirmish gangs as well, then see how many Oneiroses are about.



While thats somewhat correct, I feel the need to dwell on that statement. Buffer armor tanking slows you down and isnt great for skirmish. Shield buffer tanking raises your sig and isnt great for skirmish. Active tanking either way does not affect your speed/sig.

The trade off is having free lowslots or midslots - more damage/speed for a quicker hit and run for sheild vs more midslots for ewar/tackle to prevent damage for armor.

And when you start doing large buffer tanks with logi support to have a 40v40 fight I stop calling you a skirmish gang. Shield buffer tanks are quite common however because they arnt bad for skirmish, and scale up well to larger fleets. Go back a few years and shield tanks were quite rare, and scimi's were virtually unheard of. The game hasnt really changed, just the current player trend favors the universally decent shield buffer tank for both skirmish and larger fleets.

There's a reason that shield favors skirmish ships, and thats why a large amount of minmatar ships (you know, the guys with the skirmish warfare racial bonus's?) are shield tankers. and that they have ACTIVE REP shield bonus's. Caldari have resistance bonus's for their racial Siege bonus's.

On the whole, I feel that its working as intended - bring the right ship for the right job, and dont complain that the wrong ship is the wrong ship.

Now, that all said, I agree the Oneiros needs a buff.



Zanes Shoubje
Posted - 2011.06.12 17:44:00 - [88]
 

Changes look alright to me.

Small changes, put it on TQ and see what happens. Rinse and repeat if needed.


Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2011.06.12 17:51:00 - [89]
 

Can max skills warrior 2s from a non-bonused ship for example a carrier take out a dramiel now or do they just mwd into dram gun range and slowly die to the dram?

Isnt there a balancing decision that maxed warrior 2s **** all small frigs?

As for logistics; they are fine more or less warp speed stuff needs a big overhaul for like all ships. oneiros is the only one which is slightly lesser then the other 3. It's mainly an ehp factor i think the buff might be better placed in buffing tracking links themselves because they are utterly useless as it is and need a buff. Though at the same time you would need to buff damps else you risk leaving those behind.

Or take the 2nd tracking link bonus and replace it with the usual gallente 25-50% drone dps/durability bonus.

mkint
Posted - 2011.06.12 18:00:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Raimo
Originally by: Swynet
Are you still sure I'm missing the point?


Yep, the Oneiros is p much fine for an agile self sufficient small gang repper, only problem is that in current eve agile and armor tanking don't usually mix - like someone pointed out. So rebalance the drawbacks of armor and shield tanking so that armor tanks are viable for fast skirmish gangs as well, then see how many Oneiroses are about.

Anyway, I'm hoping the devs are reading the Dram discussion here and elsewhere, hopefully we will see some added changes as well as those in the OP like lock range nerf in addition OR INSTEAD of scan resolution (17km base lockrange would be lovely) and slight fitting or DPS nerfs etc... As well as a culture of re-visiting and re-evaluating changes periodically!


Except the guardian has a higher agility. And the oneiros needs more armor rigs to even be functional thus losing out on speed. Plus the guardian has a smaller sig radius. Comparing the onei to the scimi might be okay in theory, but even if the onei was given speed and agility buffs and sig buffs, and any other buffs you want to give it without a 200 PG buff, when the choice is between a pair (or trio) of guardians and oneis, the better buffer and a bonus that practically negates capacitor warfare makes the guardian a clear better choice. A 200 PG buff will at least make the onei somewhat attractive, and maybe beefing up the tracking link bonus from 10% to 15% would make it actually desirable.

Still not a shield pilot myself, but should something be done for the scimi so it can take advantage of it's tracking link bonus?


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