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fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2011.06.10 21:32:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: fukier on 10/06/2011 21:39:49
i guess the got ccp tallest cuss balancing is a pretty "tall" order LaughingLaughingLaughing

also is this just ship balancing or you doing mod balancing too? like hybrids need love...

plus from the dram nerf it looks like you want angel ships (minnie) ships to remain the fastest and serp (gallente) to be the most agile... is this going to carry over to non faction ships i.e minnie regular ships being the fastest and make gallente ships the most agile?

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.06.10 22:58:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: CCP Tallest

Lostistics
The thing that really stands out is the warp speed. It's lower than all the other tech 2 cruisers and that's just not cool.

Ship Warp Speed: from 3 AU/S to 3.75 AU/s


Thank you so much. I put up a suggestion about this about 4 months ago, and I'm glad to see it was noticed. Would you consider adding T3s to the warp speed list, too?

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.06.10 23:10:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Aamrr
Originally by: CCP Tallest

Lostistics
The thing that really stands out is the warp speed. It's lower than all the other tech 2 cruisers and that's just not cool.

Ship Warp Speed: from 3 AU/S to 3.75 AU/s


Thank you so much. I put up a suggestion about this about 4 months ago, and I'm glad to see it was noticed. Would you consider adding T3s to the warp speed list, too?


I have a question about warp speed actually...

Say I am trying to outrun some people chasing me in my fast frigate... or any other reason I might want to move as fast as possible...

And I come off a gate align to the next and enter warp...
But at the moment I enter warp a Big slow ship also enters warp and we end up on the same 'warp' grid as each other....
Do I get held up and only warp at the speed of the big slow ship, does the big slow ship get sped up to my speed, or do we go at some average of the two?

If accidentally warping at the same time as a slow ship while in a fast one lands you up going at the slower speed, would it be possible to change the code to make it so that you only 'lock step' in warp with fleet mates?

Also are you planning to have a look at warp speed acceleration at any point?
atm its sooo slow you have to make a really long jump to actually notice being in a faster to warp ship.

Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.10 23:16:00 - [34]
 

Soden, if you accidently end up in the same warp tunnel as a slower ship, you will fly past him.

The warp acceleration and deceleration speed and time are the same for every ship in the game, but once you reach your top speed (you will reach it as fast as the slower ship), he won't be able to keep up with you.

The only exception is fleet warping. In that case, the entire fleet warps at the speed of the slowest ship.

The warp acceleration/deceleration problem has been acknowledged by CCP a long time ago, but it's apparently very hard to fix because it involves some very low level (underlying) code that can mess up a lot of things.

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.06.10 23:18:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Don Pellegrino
Soden, if you accidently end up in the same warp tunnel as a slower ship, you will fly past him.

The warp acceleration and deceleration speed and time are the same for every ship in the game, but once you reach your top speed (you will reach it as fast as the slower ship), he won't be able to keep up with you.

The only exception is fleet warping. In that case, the entire fleet warps at the speed of the slowest ship.

The warp acceleration/deceleration problem has been acknowledged by CCP a long time ago, but it's apparently very hard to fix because it involves some very low level (underlying) code that can mess up a lot of things.


Ah cool thanks for the response....

Wish I hadn't asked in gerneral now....Embarassed

NM, give something for the trolls to pick over...

Natalia Kovac
Minmatar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2011.06.10 23:24:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Veshta Yoshida
Originally by: Louis deGuerre
...Next, assault frigates ? They are looking very feeble now compared to the faction frigs...very sad.

Never mention AFs!

Think some of the devs still have nervous ticks from the last time when they thought they had the answer only to have it torn apart on SiSi Very Happy
It's a bridge class, crammed in between frigates and cruisers with prey/predators in either category .. "fixing" them will require more than a tweak or two I fear.


I never got why the AFs with the boosted oversized ABs was such a big deal. Yeah they'd go fast, but they wouldn't have any agility to turn or kite or do, you know, frigate things.

Kabaal S'sylistha
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.11 00:07:00 - [37]
 

I think acceleration is a key statistic, especially in the frigate class, that is ignored where it could obviously help balancing issues such as blasters.

Ships like the merlin with a split of 2 turret highs and 2 missile highs, but only a bonus for one of those weapon systems need looking at.

Aside from the nitpicky things, I think what should be strived for is more engaging roles for pilots to take in fights. Space is open terrain, and in war terrain is what causes for maneuvering and all the drama aside from the planet or station you want to blow up. I would look at adding some terrain effect ships or equipment. If what I mean by that isn't clear I can iterate further later but it should be fairly obvious how to extrapolate from "I have a big playground of emptyness and thousands of years in advanced technology to take advantage of it".

Something along these lines could also further draw lines between high/low/nullsec by having different area effects cause for destruction in high sec yet not in null sec, but with consequences to the system when it is used anywhere.


trademeyourmoneys
Posted - 2011.06.11 01:46:00 - [38]
 

I really hope supers are added to this list soon :)

zxsteel
Gallente
Darkness Of Absolution
Posted - 2011.06.11 03:11:00 - [39]
 

A+ for next step of changes, on your behalf. But I do think, we need to do more changes in future too. Darn shame we can get vote count on ideas of changes, or ideas. Threw up pages, and threw it on log on pages to be voted on.

Sannikoff
Posted - 2011.06.11 04:12:00 - [40]
 

I suggest to start Hybrid weapon

Green Shift
The Cake Collective.
Veni Vidi Vici Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.11 05:01:00 - [41]
 

Please fix omen

Syndic Thrass
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.11 07:00:00 - [42]
 

who cares about the dramiel, I'm going to be able to walk in stations!

Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
DarkSide.
Posted - 2011.06.11 08:11:00 - [43]
 

I hope you're a sane dev and cyno mechanics revision will follow soon. I hope that this particular area is within your range of duties, too. Otherwise even the most brill decisions won't remedy EVE completely.

GL with it.
Viam supervadet vadens.

Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
Posted - 2011.06.11 08:55:00 - [44]
 

I hope there's more than just team BFF who's working on balance. To me latest CCP balancing efforts look like novice's steps - like 'rocket boost' or these changes to dram.

From my perspective, nerfing speed was essential, but not enough: it should've been accompanied by nerfing ship resources in some way (cpu and/or pg) or ship bonuses (falloff or tracking).

Also, take a look at other angel ships - they're also incredibly fast and agile, but everybody whined about dram because it had numerous other advantages besides just speed/agi (and possibly mach because of 1400mm fotming).

Even better to start from introducing some concept/changing something at global level (remember quantum rise?), then rebalancing ships to make them competitive in these new conditions.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.06.11 10:09:00 - [45]
 

Yeah, the other Angel ships need looking at too. They're not as clearly overpowered as the Dramiel, but, let's face it, the pirate faction ships most seen in PVP are all Angel ships, with a side helping of Bhaalgorn. That's basically all the proof that you need.

The problem is the same problem as the Dramiel has - the combination of good speed, good agility and good, easily applied DPS. The combination of great speed and great agility is expecially powerful and a sensible starting point would be to just significantly reduce their agilities to "normal" levels. I'm not keen on the falloff bonuses though - again, the combination of great speed and good damage projection is very powerful.

Eclampsia
Posted - 2011.06.11 10:32:00 - [46]
 

Look at this topic pls:

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1415482

This discussion going about half of year already...

I supprised that you are asking us only now...

Count'Dus
LIGHTS 0UT
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2011.06.11 11:34:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: MrCaptAwsm
Dramiels are fine as they are.

Agree.

Don't touch Dramiel's aligning speed. This is the feature of all Angel Cartel ships.

Captain Nares
Posted - 2011.06.11 11:58:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Captain Nares on 11/06/2011 12:35:23
Originally by: CCP Tallest

Dramiel
It's too fast. Obvious dev is obvious. Specifically, the mass is far too low when compared to other frigates. The scan resolution is also very high for a non-interceptor and I want to lower that as well.

Mass: from 740,700 kg to 950,000 kg
Max Velocity: from 473m/s to 460m/s
Scan Resolution: from 990mm to 750mm

Non-modified MWDII speed would go from 5,058m/s to 4,292m/s
Non-modified ABII speed would go from 1,797m/s to 1,578m/s
Aligning speed will go from 3.2s to 4.1s
Dramiel will still be the fastest frigate, but will go from 1. to 2. place in align-speed (after Daredevil)

Disclaimer: I know that there are many other things that are in need of balancing. I've started with these two because I had to start somewhere and the solutions to these seemed relatively simple compared to other ships/classes. Other ships/classes will also be rebalanced in the coming months.



Don't like dramiel changes.


Why it is too fast and agile? It is Angel ship, it must be fast. But you gonna nerf its speed for some reason.

Why it is so fat? My Dramiel has 7.5k HP (almost as an AF!). No answer.

Why it has so high DPS (270 overloaded, more than most AF). No answer.


I expected you to make it weaker in terms of dps and tank, not slower. Try to appoach the problem from another side.


My fit:
http://pastie.org/2051794 + 3% imps and Zor.

And standard cheap cookie-cutter fit just to be sure you know what are you fixing:
http://pastie.org/2051814 + 3% imps and Zor.

Slower than fleet ceptors, btw. Rolling Eyes
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And Yes,
Originally by: Kadesh Priestess
I hope there's more than just team BFF who's working on balance. To me latest CCP balancing efforts look like novice's steps - like 'rocket boost' or these changes to dram.
... ...
Even better to start from introducing some concept/changing something at global level (remember quantum rise?), then rebalancing ships to make them competitive in these new conditions.

+100500 ugh

Veshta Yoshida
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.11 12:31:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Veshta Yoshida on 11/06/2011 12:36:31
Originally by: Natalia Kovac
I never got why the AFs with the boosted oversized ABs was such a big deal. Yeah they'd go fast, but they wouldn't have any agility to turn or kite or do, you know, frigate things.

It wasn't so much the oversized hilarity but more the fact that it made the difference between good AFs and bad AFs a lot more pronounced.

Think about how bad for balance the Dramiel is due to being able to go 2k/s on AB .. now apply that same game breaking speed to Jags/Wolves/Ishkurs/et al.
AF boost will have to be a thorough revision of the individual ships as any bulk-fix will inevitably make half of them worthless and the other half broken Smile
Originally by: Captain Nares
...Slower than fleet ceptors, btw. Rolling Eyes..

If you want to compare speeds to "fleet interceptors" then you have to use comparable fits. An interceptor has to use two speed mods just to match the drams speed with mwd .. two slots on a frigate is a massive sacrifice.

Quindaster
Posted - 2011.06.11 12:44:00 - [50]
 

I hate dramiels, it's impossible to lock them on the gate jump, because they warp away like shuttles.

I hope it will be possible to lock them after this small nerf.

And who cry about drami...I saw how drami fly in WH with +85% bonus on speed. Absolutely impossible to do something agains it, so, nerf is correct.

And about logistics...I don't see here happy logistics pilots, so this boost, like nothing, but, thanks for this.

Arxa Atram
Posted - 2011.06.11 13:12:00 - [51]
 

NNNooo, why can't u leave Dramiel alone??!!!1

Gunnery Skills
Posted - 2011.06.11 15:56:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Quindaster
I hate dramiels, it's impossible to lock them on the gate jump, because they warp away like shuttles.

I hope it will be possible to lock them after this small nerf.

And who cry about drami...I saw how drami fly in WH with +85% bonus on speed. Absolutely impossible to do something agains it, so, nerf is correct.

And about logistics...I don't see here happy logistics pilots, so this boost, like nothing, but, thanks for this.


http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Interdiction_bubble
Solution

Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.11 16:12:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Gunnery Skills

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Interdiction_bubble
Solution

No. Dramiels can escape bubbles. It's a well known fact that Drams AB at 50km/s and MWD at 20AU/s.

Falcus Aurelius
Posted - 2011.06.11 17:27:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Blackhorizon
Edited by: Blackhorizon on 10/06/2011 14:07:16
Dear CCP Tallest, you are approaching this the wrong way. Frigates, as a class in general, are underused and underpowered in serious PvP.

Rather than nerfing the Dramiel, you should look to bring other frigates on par with the Dramiel, or better. This includes non-faction frigates like condors and executioners that right now are more or less just glorified shuttles.

I'd suggest keeping the Dramiel the way it is, but bringing other frigates in line with it in terms of capability and speed. Nerfing the Dramiel just hides the fact that many other frigates are wholly inadequate or useless.


This.

Naomi Wildfire
Amarr
Spricer
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.06.11 17:41:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Naomi Wildfire on 11/06/2011 17:41:03
Theres nothing wrong with the Dramiel tbh, its so easy to take down.
People even make sports out of it.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.06.11 18:52:00 - [56]
 

Overall, these changes look good. Comments:
- I expected a bigger dram nerf, tbh. But, baby steps are good steps as long as you guys are willing to iterate on them in a reasonable timeframe.
- The logi warp speed changes are long overdue. Thanks. :)
- On the subject of logis, I've always dreamed about trading the tracking link bonuses on the Ony/Scim for an active tank bonus. It leaves Scim/Ony better at small gangs, very cap vulnerable, and doesn't provide any real extra utility in large gangs that the Guardian/Basilisk dominate in.
- Please don't forget about Supercaps, EAFs, AFs, hybrids, caldari missile ship grid (Nighthawk, Cerb, etc), etc.

Fly safe!

-Liang

Walextheone
The Red Circle Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.11 18:56:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Walextheone on 12/06/2011 11:26:44
Extremely nice to see ship balancing getting attention.

Dramiel and warp speed of logistic buff looks good IMO, but the Dramiel probably need a weak point too.
The Oneiros really comes off short compared to other three logisitcs, compared to the scimi is so slow and can't have a decent tank.

Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2011.06.11 19:05:00 - [58]
 

The dramiel's DPS is exagerated. The real reason people hate it is it's GTFO ability. I like the proposed change because it doesn't hit the ship with a nerf hammer. Hopefully CCP has the mental fortitude to ignore the "Kill It with a Nerf Bat!" crowd.

mkint
Posted - 2011.06.11 19:58:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: mkint on 11/06/2011 20:15:06
Regarding logi buff: the warp speed buff is alright I guess, but kinda meh unless you are in a very specific kind of fleet.

The biggest disparity between the guardian and the oneiros, the oneiros is limited by the fitting choices it must make that the Guardian does not need to make. An oneiros must choose between it's buffer (a 1600mm plate), it's RR bonus, and it's tracking link bonus. Oneiros can only run 2 of the 3 things it needs to be competitive with a Guardian, and the pilot even needs implants to even do that. A guardian can run all 3, it's 1600mm buffer, it's RR's and it's energy transfers, and it still ends up with a better speed and agility than the oneiros. The only advantage to the oneiros is that it has a higher potential RR, but it must sacrifice both tank and it's link bonus to get it. Increasing onei's power grid would make up for the differences. (I also wouldn't complain if it got a buff to it's tracking link bonus, but I don't see that being it's biggest weakness.)

Even with major Oneiros buffs, the oneiros would add to the weapons performance of a couple ships, but guardians can essentially make an entire fleet immune to capacitor warfare. Making onei tracking links into friendly AOE would make up for that difference, but would probably end up overpowered.

-onei needs 200 added to it's base PG to bring it more in line with the guardian. A 300 powergrid buff would do even more to bring it into line.

note: I don't fly shield tanks, but I'd imagine a scimitar could be looked at in the same way.

edit: just taking a look at basi vs scimi loadouts, a basi can take advantage of all it's bonuses and still have 60% more buffer than a scimi that is only taking advantage of 1 bonus. Looks like the scimi needs more midslots and more powergrid.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.06.11 21:13:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: mkint
Looks like the scimi needs more midslots and more powergrid.


Nonsense logic leads to nonsense conclusions. There's nothing the matter with the Scimitar. Also, your comparison fo Oneiros with Guardian is absurd - you should be comparing the Oneiros with the Scimitar.



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