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PhantomOf Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.18 04:23:00 - [331]
 

Edited by: PhantomOf Caldari on 18/08/2011 04:24:36



Dramiel is just fine.

Why this ship bother you devs some much now with no reason? Shouldnt you be sitting and design new features, ships for eve instead of wasting your time nerfing, boosting existing ships and create needless contraversy?


Ding Charvez
Posted - 2011.08.18 09:51:00 - [332]
 

Edited by: Ding Charvez on 18/08/2011 09:51:54
Originally by: PhantomOf Caldari

Dramiel is just fine.



How can you kill a dramiel with a friget-class or a destroyer-class ship?

Shasz
Angels of Anarchy
Posted - 2011.08.18 12:33:00 - [333]
 

I like the proposed changes to the Dramiel in the first post. Being far and away the fastest and most nimble ship, AND having great firepower, AND 3 drones, AND being pretty easy to shield buffer was a bit much.

I loved flying it when I was in lowsec, but it felt a bit like cheating it was such a good ship.

I'm also glad to hear you're looking into gallente hulls and blasters Soon™.

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:37:00 - [334]
 

Quote:
Why this ship bother you devs some much now with no reason?


Where have you been?
There have been calls for the Dramiel in particular and Angel ships in general to be nerfed almost immediately after the buff hit.

Quote:
Shouldnt you be sitting and design new features, ships for eve instead of wasting your time nerfing, boosting existing ships and create needless contraversy?


Fix existing broken stuff first, then add new ships. If you really think nerfing and buffing is a waste of time then you really are a tool.

Quote:
How can you kill a dramiel with a friget-class or a destroyer-class ship?


It's easy - if the Dramiel pilot is a complete idiot.

Fastest Dealer
Posted - 2011.08.19 09:18:00 - [335]
 

Edited by: Fastest Dealer on 19/08/2011 09:20:22
Edited by: Fastest Dealer on 19/08/2011 09:19:10
Why Oneiros and Guardian have equal role bonus to 'power need for Remote Armor Repair Systems' ? and in Guardian case they also have 'power need for Energy Transfer Arrays'. And Guardian have smaller signature, better armor, larger capacitor... than Oneiros.

I think it is not fair.

Rhinanna
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.08.19 17:09:00 - [336]
 

Originally by: Ding Charvez
Edited by: Ding Charvez on 18/08/2011 09:51:54
Originally by: PhantomOf Caldari

Dramiel is just fine.



How can you kill a dramiel with a friget-class or a destroyer-class ship?



Like this:

http://www.eve-volt.net/kb/?a=kill_related&kll_id=6219

1 'cane vs curse + sabre + 3 dramiels.

Cane died but took sabre and 2 dramiels with it ;)

I love my 'cane ;) Ok not a frig or a destroyer but still ;)

Ok I'm just showing off, Dramiel is way overpowered ;)

Its basically the best interceptor and best AF at the same time which is just ******ed.

Tal Rann
Posted - 2011.08.20 15:31:00 - [337]
 

So the pvp lobby thinks Dramiels are too fast for them to pew pew-what small heads and thick necks they all must have. And for CCP to listen to such whiners? Natch. And then we wonder why people are quitting Eve... Cool


Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov
The Eleusinian Mystery Cult
Posted - 2011.08.20 22:18:00 - [338]
 

Originally by: PhantomOf Caldari
Edited by: PhantomOf Caldari on 18/08/2011 04:24:36



Dramiel is just fine.

Why this ship bother you devs some much now with no reason? Shouldnt you be sitting and design new features, ships for eve instead of wasting your time nerfing, boosting existing ships and create needless contraversy?




Because it's more reasonable to nerf one ridiculously overpowered ship than it is to try and boost every other ship in the game to compensate. Also, there's the matter of 'power creep'.

Imbecile.

A'isha Kuvakei
Posted - 2011.08.21 14:34:00 - [339]
 

The 5% bonus to Warp Scrambler interceptors (i.e Maledic, Raptor, Ares) really need looking at, so underpowered compared to other advance/faction frig brothers and sisters.

Either
Alittle: speed/lock
or
Buffer there tanks.

This will mix up the field abit!!

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.08.21 16:43:00 - [340]
 

Quote:
The 5% bonus to Warp Scrambler interceptors (i.e Maledic, Raptor, Ares) really need looking at, so underpowered compared to other advance/faction frig brothers and sisters.


Umm, what? Tackle inties do their job just fine. High speed, scan res and point range put them well above other T2 frigates for the role. (Yes, even the Raptor.)

Fifth Dimension
Posted - 2011.08.21 18:54:00 - [341]
 

I beleive the Deimos could use to be improved a little. It has one of the nastiest damage outlays of all hacs in game but it can support no tank. Possibly take a little of its dps away and another medium slot so it could support and active tank instead of limiting the ship to only a passive armor tank. That is my thoughts on the re-balancing of ships. Smile

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.08.21 19:17:00 - [342]
 

Originally by: Fifth Dimension
I beleive the Deimos could use to be improved a little. It has one of the nastiest damage outlays of all hacs in game but it can support no tank. Possibly take a little of its dps away and another medium slot so it could support and active tank instead of limiting the ship to only a passive armor tank. That is my thoughts on the re-balancing of ships. Smile


Resulting in exactly the same thing we have now: an overpriced Brutix.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr
Divine Power.
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.08.22 06:11:00 - [343]
 

What about taking away the Deimos' 5% bonus to MWD capacitor per level and replace it with a -15% size penalty of MWD sig radius, like an interceptor? Or would that be stepping on T3?

fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2011.08.22 06:38:00 - [344]
 

Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
What about taking away the Deimos' 5% bonus to MWD capacitor per level and replace it with a -15% size penalty of MWD sig radius, like an interceptor? Or would that be stepping on T3?


i was thinking more remove the falloff bonus and replace it with a 5% reduction in mass per level... that way with a mwd on you will go faster and be more agile...

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.08.22 10:21:00 - [345]
 

Originally by: fukier
Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
What about taking away the Deimos' 5% bonus to MWD capacitor per level and replace it with a -15% size penalty of MWD sig radius, like an interceptor? Or would that be stepping on T3?


i was thinking more remove the falloff bonus and replace it with a 5% reduction in mass per level... that way with a mwd on you will go faster and be more agile...


Right up until you get into blaster range, at which point you're scrammed, webbed and no more mobile than a Brutix. Reason for spending double the money on a Diemost is now gone.

fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2011.08.22 17:35:00 - [346]
 

Edited by: fukier on 22/08/2011 17:37:05
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Originally by: fukier
Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
What about taking away the Deimos' 5% bonus to MWD capacitor per level and replace it with a -15% size penalty of MWD sig radius, like an interceptor? Or would that be stepping on T3?


i was thinking more remove the falloff bonus and replace it with a 5% reduction in mass per level... that way with a mwd on you will go faster and be more agile...


Right up until you get into blaster range, at which point you're scrammed, webbed and no more mobile than a Brutix. Reason for spending double the money on a Diemost is now gone.


meh its not soo bad if he is scarmed too... i dont care if i am scramed as long as i am in range with my blasters...
Plus my 5 med ecm 600's will take care of that lock in no timeYARRRR!!

plus the brutix is usually buffer tanked meaning it is really slow in comparison...
The brutix will be kited the deimos will not beYARRRR!!
Plus most kiting ships only use 1 point and if you are getting scramed well then you are in blasters optimal range anyways...

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.08.22 18:32:00 - [347]
 

Quote:
meh its not soo bad if he is scarmed too...

The point being: the only reason to use a HAC over a BC is mobility. Fly into scram range and that's gone.

Quote:
Plus my 5 med ecm 600's will take care of that lock in no time

If 5 EC-600s could fix problems that easily, we'd have a lot fewer gimpy ships. Also FYI: a Brutix can send out those as well.

Quote:
The brutix will be kited the deimos will not be

Shield gank Brutix can still get to around the 1.6km/s mark with an overheat. And yeah, sure, a Diemost can get into range better - at which point your inferior tank and gank kicks in.

fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2011.08.22 18:54:00 - [348]
 

Edited by: fukier on 22/08/2011 19:02:08
double post ftw

fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2011.08.22 18:59:00 - [349]
 

Edited by: fukier on 22/08/2011 19:47:06
Edited by: fukier on 22/08/2011 19:04:33
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote:
meh its not soo bad if he is scarmed too...

The point being: the only reason to use a HAC over a BC is mobility. Fly into scram range and that's gone.

Quote:
Plus my 5 med ecm 600's will take care of that lock in no time

If 5 EC-600s could fix problems that easily, we'd have a lot fewer gimpy ships. Also FYI: a Brutix can send out those as well.

Quote:
The brutix will be kited the deimos will not be

Shield gank Brutix can still get to around the 1.6km/s mark with an overheat. And yeah, sure, a Diemost can get into range better - at which point your inferior tank and gank kicks in.


so then whats the solution?
cut a highslot for a mid slot so you can either duel prop or shield tank the thing?

i still would like the falloff bonus to be cut and made into the base stats of the guns and replaced with a mass reduction bonus to make the "mobility" bonus better...

if ccp fixed railguns by increasing thier dps... i would fly a deimos like a vega (specially if they added a 4th mid slot)...

Personally if rail guns did not suck so hard the deimos would be a much better ship...

another idea i had... is if they replaced the mwd cap bonus with a mass reduction bonus then removed the falff off bonus and replaced it with an armor amount per level bonus... 10% per level...

so the changes we are looking at is.

1. take higlsot put it on mid slot

2. remove cap bonus for mwd (increase base cap of ship to offset) replace with mass reduction bonus of 5% per lev

3. remove fall off bonus (make th 37.5% a native boost to fall off for all hybrids) replace with a 10% to armor per level...

do this and the deimos will be fast enough have enough hp and be able to do its damage...

SGT FUNYOUN
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.22 20:20:00 - [350]
 

I have one for you... the dramiel and Logi "fixes" seem alright... but what about Gallente ships???

I have noticed that Gallente ships are either built mainly as Blaster boats, which have to get close to do their business; or they are drone boats which have very little drone capabilities.

Gallente Ships need to be faster and more agile overall. The ones built around the blaster philosophy in particular. Even readjust a few of them to be used with rails better; or even make a new model of each variety that are really well suited to use Rails. The Gallente have Rail guns which IMO are actually superior to Arty when it comes to dealing damage at a high rate of fire at distance. Yes they are shorter distance than Arty but they give more damage at that reduced range. The blaster ships however are ALL WAAAAY too slow and clunky.

Secondly, the drone boats... WTF man.

Gallente is the Hybrids and Drones race. While the Hybrid guns are formidable in the right situation, drones are supposed to be the bread and butter of the Gallentean Fighter. Like missles and torpedoes for Caldari, Arty and Autocannons for Minmatar, and Lasers and Masers for Amarr. The Gallente Drone capabilities need a boost.

I am thinking give the Gallente ships the ability to carry AND ACTIVELY FLY 1-2 more drones than they can right now and boost their drone control range by around 10 - 20km. MINUS the Carriers and Super Carriers of course... those are already powerful enough. Think about it. Even with Heavy and Sentry drones, each drone only hits for around 80 - 180 HP per volley. On a ship like the Dominix, it needs to be carrying AND FLYING at least 7 drones just to make a worth while impact, because if you try to fit rails on it you may not even have enough CAP to keep your armor long enough to survive. You are almost forced to fit blasters onto it. And then what is the point of the drones if I still have to get super close to my target? By the time I get there my Armor is shot to ribbons and my CAP is nearly gone. A Drone boat is supposed to be able to fight from long range... kinda the point of sending a drone to do your dirty work for yah.

The Domi is just one example. But lets face it; it needs a couple more drones, as do the rest of the Gallentean Ships. As well as a MAJOR speed and agility boost to the "blaster" boats. How can I fight with a blaster fit in a ship that flies like a washing machine? Neutral

E man Industries
Posted - 2011.08.23 16:42:00 - [351]
 

Just relized the frieghter speed bonus is pointless with warp to 0.

Can we get an agility bonus? or warp speed bonus?

Sephiroth CloneIIV
Rim Worlds Republic
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.08.25 22:33:00 - [352]
 

Originally by: PhantomOf Caldari
Edited by: PhantomOf Caldari on 18/08/2011 04:24:36



Dramiel is just fine.

Why this ship bother you devs some much now with no reason? Shouldnt you be sitting and design new features, ships for eve instead of wasting your time nerfing, boosting existing ships and create needless contraversy?




Lets have nullsec be world of supers forever, lol. And the dramiel be the only faction frig worth it's salt. While at it keep failguns fail and gallente ships beyond drone boats have AIDS. CCP has enough problem of not changing anything for years.... don't encourage it.

New stuff looks better for glitter to catch new people, but fixing the old retains players.

Larton Dretta
Posted - 2011.08.27 06:04:00 - [353]
 

Skipping a fiew ships like the Moa, Maller or the Omen which need major overhauling, most of the ships just require minor tweeks to make them equal and i think what you're trying to do with the Dramiel is a step in the right direction.

Zeerover
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2011.08.27 19:21:00 - [354]
 

In my opinion the Dramiel balancing should focus on keeping the primary strength of the ship (it's speed and agility), while reducing the numerous secondary strengths of the ship (capless dps, huge dronebay, good ehp, good slot layout, good fitting possibilities).

It could be done by removing the drone bay completely while keeping the rest of the stats.

This would result in a ship that still is the fastest and most agile ship, but isn't this and a lot of other things as well.

Larla Rosethorn
Minmatar
Renegade Pleasure Androids
Posted - 2011.08.28 00:51:00 - [355]
 

Please rebalance Nidhoggur and shield capital fleets in general.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1548984

Ten Dollars
Posted - 2011.08.29 01:05:00 - [356]
 

This is typical of someone who is given power to do something. You are overdoing it. Don't try to reinvent the wheel.

FPS games have this problem. They make a great game, then poeple complain because they cant kill someone with a class that isnt good at killing it.

The FPS game company ends up making all the soldier classes equal, completely taking all fun out of the game trying to make all classes equal. Some ships should always be better than others. Quit trying to overthink this and leave them alone.

steave435
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.08.29 09:17:00 - [357]
 

Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
What about taking away the Deimos' 5% bonus to MWD capacitor per level and replace it with a -15% size penalty of MWD sig radius, like an interceptor? Or would that be stepping on T3?

I'd prefer a 5%/level (MWD?) speed bonus, but that's partly because I believe the whole Minmatar/Gallente design idea is flawed.
The Minmatar have great speed and the ability to control range, combined with guns that work at very varying ranged.
The Gallente on the other hand are slow armor tankers that can't control range, combined with weapons that require very specific ranges, either huge range for kiting with rails, or point blank for rushing in with blasters.
That causes Minmatar to border on overpowered while Gallente suck. However, if that was inversed and the Minmatar got hybrids while Gallente uses projectiles, you'd have 2 races that work fine.
The Minmatar would have great speed so that they can either rush in fast and get in range with blasters, or they're so fast others have a hard time catching up and thus they can kite with rails.
The Gallente would still be pretty slow and have to make do with the range the opponent chose most of them time, but their projectile guns. especially autocannons, were designed to work at any range, so that's not a problem.
Solving that though would be very difficult now. Just swapping hybrid bonuses for projectiles and vice versa wouldn't work due to PG and CPU issues in addition to forcing everyone flying either race to train the other races guns, and trying to change the stats of both gun types would probably result in balance issues anyway while the proper numbers are worked out.
Long term though, I can't see any other way to fix the core issues that hybrids have without turning them into either projectiles or lasers, and minmatar are the only ones that could make the hybrids work.

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.08.29 11:31:00 - [358]
 

Quote:
FPS games have this problem. They make a great game, then poeple complain because they cant kill someone with a class that isnt good at killing it. The FPS game company ends up making all the soldier classes equal, completely taking all fun out of the game trying to make all classes equal.


What if this FPS of yours had a class that combined the best attributes of all the others? Don't think of it as nerfing, thinking of it as defining a niché.

Quote:
Some ships should always be better than others. Quit trying to overthink this and leave them alone.


Hmm, it would appear we have another simple person here that can't comprehend the difference between "better than" and "better than, at X role".
I'll try to use short words so you can understand:
Ship X being better than ship Y at role A: fine.
Ship X being better than ship Y at every role: no. Nerf it.

Trader 99
Posted - 2011.08.29 13:43:00 - [359]
 

Black Ops need looking at.
The jump range needs to be increased.
You need to get between about 3 and 6 jumps from target you want to hot drop,depending on how far the systems are apart.
The fuel bay could be a bit bigger aswell but the jump range is the most annoying thing about black ops.



Ravcharas
GREY COUNCIL
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:18:00 - [360]
 

Not a word about ship balancing in the notes for the tomorrow's patch. So it'll be what, another two or three months before we see anything?


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