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Nemesis Factor
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.10 07:30:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Nemesis Factor on 10/06/2011 07:42:57
Let me preface this post by politely requesting some dev input on this before I get nasty. Razz

I understand the need to have Dust bunnies play the same character so they can build and upgrade them, but it should not come at the expense of capsuleer uniqueness.

I heard of this the last time CCP brought up Dust and the new chronicle all but confirms it: Dust mercs are immortal clones, just like pod pilots. 90% of what makes a pod pilot unique is their immortality. We can remember everything that happens to us until our pod kills us. Now we might as well sit in a chair with plugs in our neck for all the good a pod would do us. What is up with taking the ultimate gift of immortality, reserved for only the highest of our species and giving it to a common grunt? Not ONLY are you giving them that which makes us special, but giving them a better portable version.

I know it's too late to change your game plan on this, CCP, but I suggest a small change which would appease those of us with a massive (and threatened) superiority complex. This change would only effect the RP persecutive and leave everything else effectively unchanged: Give mercenaries their clones, but only allow them to activate a clone from a stored backup copy, not a new copy from their dead clone. For instance, before each battle, a dust merc would sit in what is effectively a pod and would have the normal process of copying their mind. The good old lethal kind of mind copy. Then, if the merc dies, they would have a clone activated of this last copy. Death isn't a learning experience, of course, but thats a small price (for them) to pay if it mean I can retain my smug superiority over them. This jives with me.

While I'm on the topic, I noticed the guy in the chronicle passed one of his dead bodies and I thought to myself 'what are the odds.' That is unless of course, we're doing some sort of Clone Wars type of thing. Is every Dust bunny going to be Jengo Fett? I notice we never see any of their faces. If that's the case then my previously stated idea would fit in even better, but instead of every soldier having a backup copy, they entire Merc group would have a collective backup they all loaded from, and every time one has their memories downloaded, it is incorporated into this hive mind of sorts. Every soldier learns from each other. Even the guys who die in every fight will learn something from the ones who don't.

Kenreikko Valitonen
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2011.06.10 11:06:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Nemesis Factor
I understand the need to have Dust bunnies play the same character so they can build and upgrade them, but it should not come at the expense of capsuleer uniqueness.

You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake. You are the same decaying organic matter as everyone else, and we are all part of the same compost pile.

Mirabi Tiane
Posted - 2011.06.10 17:38:00 - [3]
 

Quote:
The good old lethal kind of mind copy.

Oxymoron.
Transneural burning scanners do not make copypasta.

CCP Dropbear

Posted - 2011.06.10 17:44:00 - [4]
 


Ellis Croix
Posted - 2011.06.10 20:27:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: CCP Dropbear
...which brings us to the second thing that eventually dawns, and on an diminishing scale now, down to the thousands.

You mean we really aren't immortal?

Now I'm horribly depressed.

Razz

Auwnie Morohe
Posted - 2011.06.11 09:30:00 - [6]
 

Not immortal you say.

We'll see about that.

Elisa Fir
Posted - 2011.06.11 16:31:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Jita 4-4
The idea of the informorph.


The question: What if we just stayed out there and never returned to another clone?

What if we could live out there, and build a bright and better world in that space between?



That is a very in-your-face reference to the "Infomorph" concept. Someting debated in relation to Anoikis, Sleepers and the Talocan.

This could, off course, just be a coincidence. But since this comes from CCP Dropbear, I doubt it.

Auwnie Morohe
Posted - 2011.06.11 21:38:00 - [8]
 

I quoted this before
Quote:
These are the times that will test the bounds of the human spirit

It is from the back of the Empyrean Age. When we take spirit to mean what most earth people would the line means what most people understand and know. In the light of EVE spirit takes on a different meaning and maybe an uncertain meaning and the line becomes much more complex and interesting. So much so that I think it permeates just about all of EVE. Infomorph is just a part of that. It is actually much more a question than a statement. But that could be just me reading things and seeing connections that are not there. Nah, I'm right.Cool

Funny how to keep up to date one has to reread certain chronicles about every month. Jita 4-4 it is.

o7

Shani Zera
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2011.06.11 21:41:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Elisa Fir
Originally by: Jita 4-4
The idea of the informorph.


The question: What if we just stayed out there and never returned to another clone?

What if we could live out there, and build a bright and better world in that space between?



That is a very in-your-face reference to the "Infomorph" concept. Someting debated in relation to Anoikis, Sleepers and the Talocan.

This could, off course, just be a coincidence. But since this comes from CCP Dropbear, I doubt it.


You're either being very coy and baiting those of us who get it into commenting, or maybe you don't fully realize the magnitude of what you're saying.

Either way it's a lot of fun to watch.

Auwnie Morohe
Posted - 2011.06.12 01:03:00 - [10]
 

Obviously i don't get it.

That Jita thing is a work of genius whether it is evil or not I haven't decided yet.Cool Words shining brighter every day though.

Deceiver's Voice
Posted - 2011.06.12 02:41:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Deceiver''s Voice on 12/06/2011 02:49:45
Originally by: Auwnie Morohe
Obviously i don't get it.

Second point; Capsuleers aren't immortal, and neither are DUST soldiers. Their illusory immortality is tied to the idea of the "infomorph", in that the body dies but the memories (the ones and zeroes that, in that instant, cross vast distnaces) live on.

Quote:
That Jita thing is a work of genius whether it is evil or not I haven't decided yet.Cool Words shining brighter every day though.

Think about it like this; if you don't return to another clone, if you truly are an infomorph...

...what would you really need to survive? What would you give up in the process? What would your fears be?

It goes back to one of the themes I see as central to the EVE setting; when death is no longer an overriding concern, what can you achieve?

What if we just stayed out there and never returned to another clone?

What if we could live out there, and build a bright and better world in that space between?


I guess that's the question, and we know how it turned out for the Sleepers. What was their one weakness?

As they say, those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. I'm sure the Jove had/have access to the technology to download themselves into infomorph databases/drones/etc. Why wouldn't they do that if they are dying from a disease? The obvious answer is that there is an inherent weakness there; one that is easy to understand. If you are just ones and zeroes, you are code. Code can be altered. Code can be erased. Code can be erroneously sent to a receiver that's no longer active. The Capsule has numerous advantages over drones, database clusters and everything else.

It's also an egg; you get into it, and when it cracks, you're reborn. Wink Get it?

There's plenty of reasons why DUST troops would be a benefit rather than a hindrance or a threat to Capsuleers. One of those is tied to the second realization in Jita 4-4: Capsuleers aren't immortal. Jump cloning aside, there's only one sure way to wake up in a new clone; to die. Even those jump clones are tied to one unique quirk; they have to be taken care of, by those who are so easily corrupted. The Burning Life illustrates just how precarious that can be. Clone bodies are like babies; they need to be cared for, protected, etc. Capsuleers are vulnerable.

At the end of the day, Jita 4-4 is a good primer for what it is to be an infomorph; the concerns, the fears, and the worries of a Clone and a Capsuleer.

Or, you know... it probably might just be a really good story and I'm reading too much into it. Embarassed

Shani Zera
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2011.06.12 04:08:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Auwnie Morohe
Obviously i don't get it.

That Jita thing is a work of genius whether it is evil or not I haven't decided yet.Cool Words shining brighter every day though.


Brighter? Laughing

Auwnie...

The Vitrauze Project, Anoikis and Jita 4-4. They're a trilogy of sorts. And just where you would expect to find closure, to find a keystone that makes the mystery all make sense, you do. The last sentence of the last story. It's just hidden a bit too well in plain sight.

The Vitrauze Project starts with the idea of making "words shine ever brighter", which is what you're alluding to I think...Wink

The story finishes with a similar concept, in Jita 4-4. "What if we could build a bright and better world in the space between?"

It looks like a nice continuation of a theme, but it's more than that. It's more than a very in-your-face reference to the concept of the infomorph, too.

It is a direct, rather brazen, allusion to a very old piece of canon, which when viewed in this context, makes a lot of things fall into place.

"Bright and better world" - That is not a new phrase...it is "as old as EVE itself."


Auwnie Morohe
Posted - 2011.06.12 11:09:00 - [13]
 

I get all that, I think. My problem is that I don't understand the importance of whether we are immortal or not. Could be I am already way past that point or maybe I haven't even gotten that far yet. I just don't feel it has any bearing on how we view the EVE universe.

I do like the idea there is a huge complex enabling capsuleers to even exist as that would go towards proving the importance of the motives for creating the capsuleers in the first place. I could imagine we could now easily pay for the entire system ourselves. There always is dependence though whether it is people operating or the technology itself.

I dont think I ever believed the immortality idea in the first place.

I do like keystone and bright. Never knew there was such a thing as a bright.Cool

Quote:
It may not make sense at first. The complexities of life's story run so deep that it may take some time to understand. Some time indeed. Yet I tell you now that time will make the truth of these words shine ever brighter, because that is what I made them to do.

QFTCool

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.12 12:00:00 - [14]
 

There is one serious gap in the lore about the immortal grunts. The chronicles and scientific articles tell us that for a perfect copy of a persons mind-state the capsule is a requirement, but on the Dust514 website is a story about a soldier who does not mind dieing, as someone in command will press the kill-switch when the battle is over anyway.

I hope we get some fiction-material about the sudden improvement in the cloning process.

Auwnie Morohe
Posted - 2011.06.12 20:28:00 - [15]
 

Google : EVE: Templar One

Shani Zera
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2011.06.12 22:11:00 - [16]
 

Or, you could google "bright and better world".

Make sure to include the quote marks so you get results on that exact phrase. Maybe then people will see what I'm getting at...

Auwnie Morohe
Posted - 2011.06.13 01:16:00 - [17]
 

I did.Cool And yes it is very interesting where it goes.

The point I was trying to make is that there is more, a lot more.

Deceiver's Voice
Posted - 2011.06.13 20:21:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Deceiver''s Voice on 13/06/2011 20:23:32
Originally by: Shani Zera
Or, you could google "bright and better world".

Make sure to include the quote marks so you get results on that exact phrase. Maybe then people will see what I'm getting at...

Wink

Miko Bour united the Jove, forming the Second Empire.

What were the Jove before they were united?

"To sleep, perchance to dream-
ay, there's the rub."
Hamlet (III, i, 65-68)

However, this all pales in comparison to just a little research into cryonics;

Quote:
Crippled Sleeper Preservation Conduit

Tiny windows looking out into space offer a glimpse past this structure’s once-impressive armor plating andthrough to the strange sights within. Barely visible in the dim light are rows upon rows of small chambers, stretching out endlessly inside the darkened hallways of this mammoth conduit. A myriad of connectivewires interlace with giant pipelines, all of them broken or badly damaged. A strange electronic interference emanates from deep inside the facility, suggesting that perhaps not everything inside has fallen into disrepair.


So... what can fit in a handbag, and give you some insight into what the Sleepers were...

Hint: Google search Neuropreservation.

P.S.: At this point it's completely theoretical, but yes, you could draw connections between the Sleepers and the Stasis People. The Sleepers could provide a lot more interesting applications, for instance - and pardon the pun - "hotswap" clone bodies, stored in cryostasis and quickly reanimated by a combination of technologies available quite freely within Sleeper structures.

So... what would you need to make a DUST soldier? Is the evidence all there? Or has it been here all along?

ugh

Nemesis Factor
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.14 06:21:00 - [19]
 

Thread derailed by DropbearShocked

Oh well, I don't mind I love reading this stuff!

Merahl Ronuken
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.06.15 16:44:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
There is one serious gap in the lore about the immortal grunts. The chronicles and scientific articles tell us that for a perfect copy of a persons mind-state the capsule is a requirement, but on the Dust514 website is a story about a soldier who does not mind dieing, as someone in command will press the kill-switch when the battle is over anyway.

I hope we get some fiction-material about the sudden improvement in the cloning process.

The scientific articles were written about the time Eve came out. Consider how fast our contemporary technology has improved in the last 8 years. It makes sense that in 8 years cloning tech would have been refined by a lot. Still probably expensive as all hell to gain access to, but when capsuleers and governments are footing that bill, who cares?

Auwnie Morohe
Posted - 2011.06.16 17:24:00 - [21]
 

Quote:
Thread derailed by DropbearShocked

I dont think it was. Im not entirely sure though.Cool

I think EVE : Templar One is going to explain a lot about how things work and how they got developed. I do think a very big difference, maybe not so much, between capsuleers and dusties is the source of their technology. One came from the Jove the other from the Sleepers most likely.

The Demigod status of capsuleers is an integral part of the EVE story and I dont think CCP want to change that. There are also a lot of fictional ways one can make dusties different and limited in their clone technology.


Veriasse Valence
Gallente
Es and Whizz
Hedonistic Imperative
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:43:00 - [22]
 

People seem to be forgetting that Dust 514 mercs will basically just be average soldiers who have the added benefit of awaking in a clone body when they die. Lets them become far more experienced and take on missions that would otherwise be suicidal for your top quality troops.

Capsuleers share a similar cloning immortality, but they have the added challenge and power of being plugged into ships, anything from an interceptor to an Erebus. In so doing they become the ship, replacing the body's sensory input with that from your vessel. Becoming a capsuleer is only possible for a small percentage of the population, if I remember lore right, and as such it is still a special gift.

The power it can deliver to you, by being able to move freely among the stars as a normal person walks in a station or on a planet, is what truly sets Capsuleers apart.


 

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