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Camron Champagne
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2011.06.12 08:08:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Lady Spank
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Expecting hisec wardec targets to wait around for you to shoot them implies some shortcoming of your mental processing ability.


Expecting you to make sense is also a waste of my time.


Mara is correct, anyone who honestly thinks industrial corps are just going to stand around waiting for some griefer war dec corp to come blow them up over and over has some shortcomings in their mental processing ability.

Martinez
T-Cells
Moar Tears
Posted - 2011.06.12 08:16:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Martinez
well you make my point. for a corporation to leave, they should have to pay to leave the war or be held under that war dec for the remainder of the dec.


So it's perfectly okay to grief a corp into extinction by continually wardeccing them and waiting for them to either stop playing or keep paying the wardec exit fee?

Current wardec mechanics are extremely one-sided. The aggressor has the benefit of intelligence gathering and picking the fight in the first play. Then there are issues with neutral assistance, orca ship hangars, etc which need to be sorted out.

At present the cost to leave a wardec is as high as it needs to be, given the advantages the declaring party has over the target.

I have yet to meet a high sec corp who wardecs for "fun" where "fun" translates to "fights where the target has a chance of winning." What I've seen most often is a bunch of folks just out to add hisec POSes to killmails, score some free hulk and orca kills, and stay docked up in station when they outnumber the targets by less than three to one.


ok, first off no one is doing that because it costs to much to continually do it. the cost goes up weekly you know right?

you also know that the war dec corp can fight back, use neutral assistance, orca ships hangers, etc?

I am going to go out on a limb and say you know nothing about empire war dec corps. are gthe top 20 corps number wise in eve defenesless babys? high sec war dec corps go for large groups to make sure there is a target rich enviroment.

the lack of pvp knowledge in this thread is sad really. if you think about it, the main idea of this thread makes since. if you dont agree you either dont know anything about pvp and or you are complete carebear that is just thinking of the mean guy tackling your hauler.

please dont bother with the come to 0.0 crap, more than likely i lived there long before you did.

Martinez
T-Cells
Moar Tears
Posted - 2011.06.12 08:20:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Camron Champagne
Originally by: Lady Spank
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Expecting hisec wardec targets to wait around for you to shoot them implies some shortcoming of your mental processing ability.


Expecting you to make sense is also a waste of my time.


Mara is correct, anyone who honestly thinks industrial corps are just going to stand around waiting for some griefer war dec corp to come blow them up over and over has some shortcomings in their mental processing ability.


As stated before, the post was about corps that leave during a war dec should pay to leave the war dec. not they cannot leave.

Kalpel
Caldari
United Systems of the Allegiance
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2011.06.12 08:21:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: ThereAreNoBugsInEve
shouldn't there be some paid for corps or members who choose to leave during a war. the war dec alliance pays big money only to have targets flee. there should be some reparations paid to the war dec alliance.



Ooooh the tears of a station monkey with remote reps that hasn't figured out how to remove the PvP training wheels from his ship and move to nullsec are just priceless, hahahaha Twisted Evil

Martinez
T-Cells
Moar Tears
Posted - 2011.06.12 08:28:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Kalpel
Originally by: ThereAreNoBugsInEve
shouldn't there be some paid for corps or members who choose to leave during a war. the war dec alliance pays big money only to have targets flee. there should be some reparations paid to the war dec alliance.



Ooooh the tears of a station monkey with remote reps that hasn't figured out how to remove the PvP training wheels from his ship and move to nullsec are just priceless, hahahaha Twisted Evil



lol another 0.0 is real pvp guy. lol, do you shoot ships? do they sometimes die? do they sometimes run, do they sometimes bring larger numbers, do they sometimes bring smaller numbers? other than sov what is the difference other than when you see something not blue you shoot it? empire you dont know who is watching you, you dont know whos logistic that is above your station, you just dont know. is 0.0 pvp yeah it is, is empire and low sec? yeah they are too. saying different is just nieve.

Camron Champagne
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2011.06.12 08:31:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Martinez

As stated before, the post was about corps that leave during a war dec should pay to leave the war dec. not they cannot leave.


If that was the case the people in the corp that wanted to leave the alliance during the war would just leave the corp individually and reform in either another corp or form a non-formal corp with a player created chat channel from the safety of their NPC corps. Either way the people your so desperately trying to force to remain in the alliance you war dec'd would be gone and safely above your aggression.

Camron Champagne
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2011.06.12 08:38:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Martinez

ok, first off no one is doing that because it costs to much to continually do it. the cost goes up weekly you know right?

you also know that the war dec corp can fight back, use neutral assistance, orca ships hangers, etc?

I am going to go out on a limb and say you know nothing about empire war dec corps. are gthe top 20 corps number wise in eve defenesless babys? high sec war dec corps go for large groups to make sure there is a target rich enviroment.

the lack of pvp knowledge in this thread is sad really. if you think about it, the main idea of this thread makes since. if you dont agree you either dont know anything about pvp and or you are complete carebear that is just thinking of the mean guy tackling your hauler.

please dont bother with the come to 0.0 crap, more than likely i lived there long before you did.


"the main idea of this thread makes since." If your a Griefer war dec corp tired of the indy corps your war dec'ing refusing to participate in your little games and simply opting out and flying by your camps while whistling Dixie. It's hard enough with the current mechanic to keep an indy corp together and functional with the griefers trolling about. Asking a Industrial corp to out PvP a PvP corp is no less absurd then asking a PvP corp to out mine the mining corp in their Pvp fitted cruisers vs. the mining corps hulks and orcas.

Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
Posted - 2011.06.12 08:49:00 - [128]
 

Edited by: Halcyon Ingenium on 12/06/2011 08:49:40
Originally by: Martinez
the lack of pvp knowledge in this thread is sad really.


Yeah, you thinking shooting haulers is pvp is a good example.

Originally by: Martinez
please dont bother with the come to 0.0 crap, more than likely i lived there long before you did.


So then you would know that that is where actual pvp happens and are publicly acknowledging that you are full of **** then?

Ethan Blacknova
Gallente
Perkele Mining Corporation
Posted - 2011.06.12 08:49:00 - [129]
 

Okay, make it so people can't leave during a war.

Then to balance it properly, give us the option to pay to invalidate a Wardec.

Camron Champagne
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2011.06.12 10:06:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Ethan Blacknova
Okay, make it so people can't leave during a war.

Then to balance it properly, give us the option to pay to invalidate a Wardec.


If your going to do that then the war dec fee's should be increased vastly. If i'm stuck in a war i didn't start then I'd expect the aggressor to pay a hell of alot of isk for all the time i'm unable to play on that toon due to having to dock during the inescapable war dec. Something along the lines of 50 million isk per day for corps 100 million isk for alliances should be about the right price for the griefers to have their fun station camping.

Makko Gray
Pheno-Tech Industries
Crimson Wings.
Posted - 2011.06.12 10:30:00 - [131]
 

I've a better idea - Panties for leaving during a war dec

Make their avatars wear giant yellow knickers.

That is all.

Camron Champagne
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2011.06.12 10:32:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Makko Gray
I've a better idea - Panties for leaving during a war dec

Make their avatars wear giant yellow knickers.

That is all.


Deal!

Katra Novac
Posted - 2011.06.12 10:35:00 - [133]
 

Edited by: Katra Novac on 12/06/2011 10:37:09
Originally by: Camron Champagne
Originally by: Ethan Blacknova
Okay, make it so people can't leave during a war.

Then to balance it properly, give us the option to pay to invalidate a Wardec.


If your going to do that then the war dec fee's should be increased vastly. If i'm stuck in a war i didn't start then I'd expect the aggressor to pay a hell of alot of isk for all the time i'm unable to play on that toon due to having to dock during the inescapable war dec. Something along the lines of 50 million isk per day for corps 100 million isk for alliances should be about the right price for the griefers to have their fun station camping.



The likely scenario in high-sec if you can't leave a corp during a war-dec is:

More will just stay in NPC corps.

Those that don't want to stay in NPC corps will just leave the game especially if the corp they belong to keeps getting war-dec'd. As they will not effectively be able to play the game in the way that they would like to during the war-dec.




One thing that the so called high-sec PvPers forget when they are in pursuit of easy targets is that a lot of high-sec players are not interested in the PvP element of the game. They won't force people to PvP in high-sec if they do not wish to, all they will do is squeeze them out of the game.

Camron Champagne
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2011.06.12 10:58:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Katra Novac
Edited by: Katra Novac on 12/06/2011 10:37:09
Originally by: Camron Champagne
Originally by: Ethan Blacknova
Okay, make it so people can't leave during a war.

Then to balance it properly, give us the option to pay to invalidate a Wardec.


If your going to do that then the war dec fee's should be increased vastly. If i'm stuck in a war i didn't start then I'd expect the aggressor to pay a hell of alot of isk for all the time i'm unable to play on that toon due to having to dock during the inescapable war dec. Something along the lines of 50 million isk per day for corps 100 million isk for alliances should be about the right price for the griefers to have their fun station camping.



The likely scenario in high-sec if you can't leave a corp during a war-dec is:

More will just stay in NPC corps.

Those that don't want to stay in NPC corps will just leave the game especially if the corp they belong to keeps getting war-dec'd. As they will not effectively be able to play the game in the way that they would like to during the war-dec.




One thing that the so called high-sec PvPers forget when they are in pursuit of easy targets is that a lot of high-sec players are not interested in the PvP element of the game. They won't force people to PvP in high-sec if they do not wish to, all they will do is squeeze them out of the game.


Exactly, If you create a system where people not interested in direct PvP have no avenue to opt out of it then they will simply leave the game which hurts Eve, CCP and in turn everyone else as well.

General Atrocity
Posted - 2011.06.12 11:26:00 - [135]
 

IF ccp did somethign about corp/member jumpers during war decs

I would be hunting isk farmers full time.
but only way i would do this is if ccp put a form of kill rights ont he persons.

If you leave a corp/alliance that has any form of war dec you have kill rights on all ex members that has left said corp/allaince for one week. how ever the members you have "kill rights" on would not appear in any list.

So if you dont have a list of members you have to check everyone you come accros, then kill them. by that time they would have left local or docked/logged.

how ever if you got a full corp listing then you can hunt them down knowing whom they are.

only other way to do this is to stop all members leavign for a 72 hour period. yes that includes idiots who join a corp/alliance that is at war for 72 hours also.

but if any of the above is to become common place. ccp MUST raise war dec prices. base of 50m for a corp and 250m for an alliance. or somethign to that effect.

before you say anythign. yes poasting with an alt. and yes my main has avoided war decs to grief the deccers and refuse an easy kill on my corp mates at that stage.

Katra Novac
Posted - 2011.06.12 11:55:00 - [136]
 

Edited by: Katra Novac on 12/06/2011 12:02:32
Originally by: General Atrocity
I would be hunting isk farmers full time.



All players are isk farmers, just some are more efficient at it than others.

You need isk to progress in the game.


But of course I guess you mean botters.

Terick Calvantia
Posted - 2011.06.12 13:47:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Martinez

lol another 0.0 is real pvp guy. lol, do you shoot ships? do they sometimes die? do they sometimes run, do they sometimes bring larger numbers, do they sometimes bring smaller numbers? other than sov what is the difference other than when you see something not blue you shoot it? empire you dont know who is watching you, you dont know whos logistic that is above your station, you just dont know. is 0.0 pvp yeah it is, is empire and low sec? yeah they are too. saying different is just nieve.


Sure you know who's logistic that is above station. It is yours :P

Be honest now, when was the last time a newbie/industrial corp fielded more neutral RR than the merc corp decing them? The last time they fielded any at all? Or knew how to exploit station docking and aggression timers to reduce nearly all risk of losing their ship during a High Sec fight? Those same corps you are railing on for trying to avoid getting ganked by mercs are far more likely to engage when they have no back up in the next system (or logged off) than any merc ever is.

High sec PVP comes down to knowing the game mechanics mitigating your risk by using them to your advantage. Once you get a grasp of how things work, there is really very little risk to fighting in H sec.

In addition any well organized corp or Alliance will have a plan of action to deal with war decs. Indy players will drop or use alts, and there will be a means for everything to run as normal when they do so. A H sec war dec does exactly what it is supposed to do to a low/WH/0.0 corp or Alliance, it provides a minor headache to be dealt with by taking the appropriate actions. Those actions are known not only to the decies, but to the decers as well. Considering the extremely low cost of the war dec, it seems money well spent.

If you want to do more than simply be a headache, you may want to do as others have suggested and track your targets, gather intel on where they operate, and put your self at risk by venturing outside of H sec to hit your targets where it hurts.

The last war dec that hit my small worm hole corp consisted of the mercs harassing (in local and by EVE mail) the three under one month old players that dropped corp at the beginning of the war dec while camping our "HQ" system.

The other 20 or so of us continued to live in our worm hole and conduct operations as normal, including hauling through H sec (with scouts of course) for the week. When we did get a roam together (Just a couple players under 10 mil SP for the most part) any war targets we ever found in H sec docked up the moment more than one of us were in the region. Not once did we see one of them attempt to track us through H sec and find our worm hole entrance, camp our entrance system, or do anything really besides camp the trade hubs and the system listed as our HQ in our corp info.

TL:DR

There are two reasons for war decing: To get kills and easy PVP in H sec with minimal risk against players who do not know what to do in the face of a war dec, and to be a minor inconvenience to any corp or Alliance that actually matters.

If you want to do more than this, there are plenty of ways for you to do so.

Muffin Bunny
Posted - 2011.06.12 15:16:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: ThereAreNoBugsInEve
shouldn't there be some paid for corps or members who choose to leave during a war. the war dec alliance pays big money only to have targets flee. there should be some reparations paid to the war dec alliance.

What a ridiculous idea. Non-combatants already get the rawest deal in the current war dec system as any raging epeen kiddy can dec them for a very slight cost. If they are non-combatant then evasion is the right course of action for them to take, whether that is in corp and denying you kills or by leaving the corp.

One thing I would concede is that having left a war decced corp there could be a timer before they are allowed to rejoin, avoiding people hopping in and out to trap people with the laggy overview thing into attacking a non-wt.

The idea that bully's should have some special right to pin people into the dec, or force people into paying to avoid their desire for easy kills is hilarious. The risk the non-combatants have is being able to be war-decced. The risk the deccer has is that if he is deccing a non-combat corp he will be likely wasting his isk and time.

itt - Bully is upset that he can't buy rights to kill people with no financial risk to himself.

Martinez
T-Cells
Moar Tears
Posted - 2011.06.12 18:51:00 - [139]
 

wow you carebears are something. no one said make you have to pay to leave corp. just a corp to pay a fee to leave a alliance during a war dec. lol at the thought of indy corps having such a hard time. the hardest thing for them currently is the price of minerals in jita. you arent goung to stop the war decs from 4 man alt alliances but corps like mine dont dec newb indy corps barring it being a contract.

Jaak 242
Posted - 2011.06.12 20:27:00 - [140]
 

OP, once you become fluent in some language, I don't care which one, try again.

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.06.12 20:46:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Oskold Das
Stop targeting hi-sec indy corps and maybe you'll get real targets.


This.

High sec *****es tears best tears.

Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.06.12 20:57:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Martinez
corps like mine dont dec newb indy corps barring it being a contract.

But there's lots of corps who don't mind wardeccing a newb miner corp for lulz or an easy killboard boost. The rules for those situations can't be different.

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.12 21:17:00 - [143]
 

Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 12/06/2011 21:48:37
Originally by: ThereAreNoBugsInEve
so you are a chicken?
Laughing Whoah, flashback to middle school.

Originally by: Cosmo Raata
Eve is a mans game
I hear the Navy Seals recruits tough guys straight from Eve Online cuz ther sum tuff pvpers here, yessir, HOORAH!


Stella SGP
The Kimotoro Initiative
Posted - 2011.06.12 21:40:00 - [144]
 

Edited by: Stella SGP on 12/06/2011 21:42:49
Wouldn't be nice if Industrial corps can issue "Challenges" to PvP corps where they have to either out mine or out produce each other? By the end of the week, the losing corp will have to pay something like 20% of the total product value of the winning corp to the winners.

The PvPers should be required to pay a fee for either dropping the challenge or leaving the corp/alliance when the challenge is in effect.

If something like this happens then I'll say its fair to make carebears pay for corp hopping.

Scarlet des Loupes
Gallente
University of Caille
Posted - 2011.06.12 21:56:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Originally by: Cosmo Raata
Eve is a mans game
I hear the Navy Seals recruits tough guys straight from Eve Online cuz ther sum tuff pvpers here, yessir, HOORAH!


LOL Laughing

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.06.12 22:23:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Martinez
no one said make you have to pay to leave corp. just a corp to pay a fee to leave a alliance during a war dec.


You still haven't justified why a corp would have to pay a fee to leave an alliance during a wardec.

Quote:
the hardest thing for them currently is the price of minerals in jita. you arent goung to stop the war decs from 4 man alt alliances but corps like mine dont dec newb indy corps barring it being a contract.


The hardest thing for industrial corps is the 5 man alt alliances like yours who define any corp flying orcas and hulks as non-newb industrial corp.

Martinez
T-Cells
Moar Tears
Posted - 2011.06.12 23:30:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Martinez
no one said make you have to pay to leave corp. just a corp to pay a fee to leave a alliance during a war dec.


You still haven't justified why a corp would have to pay a fee to leave an alliance during a wardec.

Quote:
the hardest thing for them currently is the price of minerals in jita. you arent goung to stop the war decs from 4 man alt alliances but corps like mine dont dec newb indy corps barring it being a contract.


The hardest thing for industrial corps is the 5 man alt alliances like yours who define any corp flying orcas and hulks as non-newb industrial corp.


ok, i will try this again, you war dec a alliance with 1500 members for say 500million, 3 corps leave right when you war dec them. after the week long war, they rejoin. that is leaving a alliance to avoid a war. ccp is against that, they just dont want to make mad the 90% of eve that is carebear. the OP just stated there should be a fee for leaving, which i agree with.

i am not in a 5 man corp. i am in a merc alliance that takes contracts normally against corporations that attack " empire noob industrial corps". if a 5 man alt corp decs you and your corps leaves the alliance over them for a week long war you need to step away from the computer and get some fresh air

FireAnt
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.15 09:08:00 - [148]
 

so ccp gets mad at lulzsec. ccp and the fbi declare war on lulzsec, lulsec big nice targets run to a country and allows hacking and hidding from said forces. that would suck. i guess running sucks in game and out.

Kara Kugisa
Posted - 2011.06.15 10:38:00 - [149]
 

On the flip side we have one person who keeps us wardecced and who rarely logs in.

When the wardec came in we headed out to fight but he is using an alt corp and never logs in except to renew the war.

As such we have a war that we can not end and that costs him next to nothing to continue, and has no risk to him at all. We would wardec his main corp, but he is barely logging on to that either so its pointless.

This means we have an active wardec that causes us no issues on a day to day basis but we are trying to koin an alliance and they are reluctant to accept us.

If we need to disband and creaet a new corp we will have to but why should one persons cowardice mean it should cost us isk to leave.

Markis Silvairi
Reliables Inc
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.06.15 11:08:00 - [150]
 

lol a fee to leave corp. That's hilarious. Here's an idea, If the corp you dec'd has peeps leave, disband, w/e, instead of crying about it on the forums just dec someone else. Not like there's a shortage of corps or alliances in Eve.


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