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Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.09 08:14:00 - [31]
 

Quote:
play eve the way its supposed to be played.

Quote:
Those that sit in noob corps and play alone aren't playing the game right anyways.

So the right way to play eve is now docking games in highsec where concord protects you against all those ebil players and you got neutral RR alts because those carebears might fire back?

Also welcome in the sandbox, where you are only allowed to play the way I want you to play...



Anyway a wardec is against a corp (or alliance), if people drop that corp, objective achieved.

Rellik B00n
Posted - 2011.06.09 08:16:00 - [32]
 

OP is correct, penalties for leaving during a war dec should be higher.

forgetting all of the back and forth above lets look at it in a purely EvE p.o.v. namely:

risk/reward.

picking an example from the posts in this thread you might have an alliance based in 0.0 that uses jump freighters and indy pilots in high sec. These pilots get all the rewards of being in an alliance. Once a war dec occurs they leave until the dec ends therefore there is no risk to them.

Now im not going to enter a debate about high sec griefers here (argument runs both ways in the example - one person says they leave alliance because they have no weapon hardpoints, other person says alliance members should come and protect them), the OP was talking about harsher penalties for dec avoidance and I personally agree with that.

It is literally never gonna happen anyway CCP is focused elsewhere and the last thing they are going to look at is war mechanics.

ThereAreNoBugsInEve
Posted - 2011.06.09 08:27:00 - [33]
 

so because someone attacked your corp you quit. perfect example of why there should be a penalty. maybe that corp only dec your corp to kill you in that freighter. maybe they have been tracking you for a week watching your every move, salavating, and getting slightly hard with the thought of melting your ship around you and then hearing your pod goo spew into space.

go hide in a noob corp, i left my mains alliance out of this so it wouldnt be a flame fest. which once you dare think about touching the carebears way of life in any way they come out of the wood work mining lasers blazing.

so lets keep this constructive. what are the pros and cons.

pros

1. isk sink. corporation war dec fee/ corporation war flee fee
2. makes people choose their alliance more closely and makes a more tight knit unit knowing you need to stick it out together.
3. greifer corps get some satifaction out of knowing isk was taking out of the game due to carebears screaming and running
4. the carebears work together fight the greifers have fun and enjoy the game more
5. the carebears fight and both sides lose ships, carebears jump for joy because they get to build more stuff to sell


cons

1. carebear corp refuses to participate in a war they are all about peace and pay a flee fee to concord. yaaaah for concord boo for grifers. dounuts arent free ya know.
2. greifer corp decides it is there duty to war dec over and over the sme corp/alliance. could be a issue if the cost of the war decs did sky rocket after a week or two. more dounuts!
3. the carebears dont want to leave and hire a merc corp. not a bad thing there either really but since the carebear has to spend money its a con.

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2011.06.09 08:34:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Jasdemi on 09/06/2011 08:36:12
Originally by: ThereAreNoBugsInEve
so because someone attacked your corp you quit. perfect example of why there should be a penalty. maybe that corp only dec your corp to kill you in that freighter. maybe they have been tracking you for a week watching your every move, salavating, and getting slightly hard with the thought of melting your ship around you and then hearing your pod goo spew into space.

go hide in a noob corp, i left my mains alliance out of this so it wouldnt be a flame fest. which once you dare think about touching the carebears way of life in any way they come out of the wood work mining lasers blazing.

so lets keep this constructive. what are the pros and cons.

pros

1. isk sink. corporation war dec fee/ corporation war flee fee
2. makes people choose their alliance more closely and makes a more tight knit unit knowing you need to stick it out together.
3. greifer corps get some satifaction out of knowing isk was taking out of the game due to carebears screaming and running
4. the carebears work together fight the greifers have fun and enjoy the game more
5. the carebears fight and both sides lose ships, carebears jump for joy because they get to build more stuff to sell


cons

1. carebear corp refuses to participate in a war they are all about peace and pay a flee fee to concord. yaaaah for concord boo for grifers. dounuts arent free ya know.
2. greifer corp decides it is there duty to war dec over and over the sme corp/alliance. could be a issue if the cost of the war decs did sky rocket after a week or two. more dounuts!
3. the carebears dont want to leave and hire a merc corp. not a bad thing there either really but since the carebear has to spend money its a con.


Ok, tell me one good reason why I should stay in corp during war with a 800m freighter and 1b collaterals knowing that it'll for SURE will be popped.
If I want pvp, I go to low-/nullsec, but giving free stuff to carebearing high-sec freighter griefers? nokthx

Try harder, wannabe troll.

Once again, grow balls and post with your main.

Miss Rabblt
Posted - 2011.06.09 08:36:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: ThereAreNoBugsInEve
shouldn't there be some paid for corps or members who choose to leave during a war. the war dec alliance pays big money only to have targets flee. there should be some reparations paid to the war dec alliance.

well. if you can't wardec corp with confirmed killboard less than your - then i agree.

Let's say if your corp/alliance has 10 pvpers with many kills you can't wardec pure indy corp with only losses on KB. Or corp with only 1-2 pvpers with some kills.

Agree on it?

Xina Tutor
Amarr
Black Arrows
Sev3rance
Posted - 2011.06.09 08:42:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Xina Tutor on 09/06/2011 08:44:44
I love the way he talks about how cowardly people are, yet doesn't have the balls to post with his main... pretty funny really.

EDIT: you should try to get it through your head that you can't force people to fight you if they don't want to fight. They will move, dock up, whatever. In reality, of course, most wardecs are not for a fight, they are for easy kills, or to hit the logistics pilots in some null alliance. cry some more, please, it's been fun.

Silas Cooper
Posted - 2011.06.09 08:51:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Silas Cooper on 09/06/2011 08:57:19
Lots of butthurt people in this thread, being very righteous about their belief that high sec should be safe and that, for some reason, high sec people should just be "left alone". Butthurt and righteous... smells like carebear, and no; living in 0.0 does not stop you being a carebear, that mostly just means you like being a number and love to follow orders.

Last time I checked this was a PVP centric game where if you want to stay alive an keep your assets you'll have to defend them. With the mechanic as it is, being in an alliance does shield one from most wars purely due to cost which is ok as there's also a cost to the alliance, but then dropping it the second something happens should have repercussions, somehow.

Whether there should be a cost to leaving or leaving itself be more of a pain (like leaving a wardecced alliance taking extra time) is very much open to discussion but right now it's too easy.

- edit - being able to instantly wardec a corp within 24 hours of it leaving the alliance sounds like a reasonable middle ground idea, as long as base wardec cost is applied, not altered by the number of decs already in place.

Sgt Blade
Caldari
Save Yourself Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.09 08:53:00 - [38]
 

If my char is specced out with to only be able to haul stuff, mine roids refine ore and build ships, how the hell would I be able to defend myself against a war dec. I might as well just stop playing for a few days or leave the alliance/corp I'm in and carry on playing.

From a player who has spent most of the time doing pvp, go find some real target who will fight back.

FireAnt
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.09 08:53:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Jasdemi
Edited by: Jasdemi on 09/06/2011 08:36:12
Originally by: ThereAreNoBugsInEve
so because someone attacked your corp you quit. perfect example of why there should be a penalty. maybe that corp only dec your corp to kill you in that freighter. maybe they have been tracking you for a week watching your every move, salavating, and getting slightly hard with the thought of melting your ship around you and then hearing your pod goo spew into space.

go hide in a noob corp, i left my mains alliance out of this so it wouldnt be a flame fest. which once you dare think about touching the carebears way of life in any way they come out of the wood work mining lasers blazing.

so lets keep this constructive. what are the pros and cons.

pros

1. isk sink. corporation war dec fee/ corporation war flee fee
2. makes people choose their alliance more closely and makes a more tight knit unit knowing you need to stick it out together.
3. greifer corps get some satifaction out of knowing isk was taking out of the game due to carebears screaming and running
4. the carebears work together fight the greifers have fun and enjoy the game more
5. the carebears fight and both sides lose ships, carebears jump for joy because they get to build more stuff to sell


cons

1. carebear corp refuses to participate in a war they are all about peace and pay a flee fee to concord. yaaaah for concord boo for grifers. dounuts arent free ya know.
2. greifer corp decides it is there duty to war dec over and over the sme corp/alliance. could be a issue if the cost of the war decs did sky rocket after a week or two. more dounuts!
3. the carebears dont want to leave and hire a merc corp. not a bad thing there either really but since the carebear has to spend money its a con.


Ok, tell me one good reason why I should stay in corp during war with a 800m freighter and 1b collaterals knowing that it'll for SURE will be popped.
If I want pvp, I go to low-/nullsec, but giving free stuff to carebearing high-sec freighter griefers? nokthx

Try harder, wannabe troll.

Once again, grow balls and post with your main.
well if you read the ops post. you can leave, at a cost. dor those talking about alt/ main, really? you have nothing to add tr comment about other than that? that is just sad.Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Silas Cooper
Posted - 2011.06.09 09:00:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Sgt Blade
If my char is specced out with to only be able to haul stuff, mine roids refine ore and build ships, how the hell would I be able to defend myself against a war dec. I might as well just stop playing for a few days or leave the alliance/corp I'm in and carry on playing.

From a player who has spent most of the time doing pvp, go find some real target who will fight back.


Well, perhaps you then should have thought of that a tad sooner and spent some effort getting your SP, experience and knowledge up on the PVP part of the game. Perhaps not to the level of being competitive but at least being able to avoid issues or have *some* idea on what to do. Not realising, or acknowledging, that this is a PVP centric game isn't an excuse. Not if you're older than some arbitrary few months (newbies have a real excuse to not know stuff, older players do not).

Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
Posted - 2011.06.09 09:05:00 - [41]
 

Quote:
Last time I checked this was a PVP centric game

Subjective to say the least. Let me check though since I guess you haven't checked recently enough.

CCP's "What is EVE?" page.

Nope. Doesn't even mention the word PvP. Plenty of mention of NPC though.

It does say this though...

Quote:
What you choose to do day by day is up to you. You can play alone, form a corporation (equivalent of clan or guild) with a close group of friends or seek entrance to any of the large player run corporations and alliances already established.


Take from that what you will.

Silas Cooper
Posted - 2011.06.09 09:10:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Quote:
Last time I checked this was a PVP centric game

Subjective to say the least. Let me check though since I guess you haven't checked recently enough.

CCP's "What is EVE?" page.

Nope. Doesn't even mention the word PvP. Plenty of mention of NPC though.

It does say this though...

Quote:
What you choose to do day by day is up to you. You can play alone, form a corporation (equivalent of clan or guild) with a close group of friends or seek entrance to any of the large player run corporations and alliances already established.


Take from that what you will.



And you, kinda, forgot about this bit, funny that.

Quote:
market your fighting skills as a mercenary, camp the spacelanes for profit as a pirate, conduct espionage and infiltration





And CCP: that page needs updating. Number of subs and systems is off by a few years...

Shieko Chan
Posted - 2011.06.09 09:10:00 - [43]
 

Quote:
Anyway a wardec is against a corp (or alliance), if people drop that corp, objective achieved.



This, is all that matters.


Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
Posted - 2011.06.09 09:15:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 09/06/2011 09:15:07
Originally by: Silas Cooper
And you, kinda, forgot about this bit, funny that.

Quote:
market your fighting skills as a mercenary, camp the spacelanes for profit as a pirate, conduct espionage and infiltration

And you kinda forgot this bit.
Quote:
You can trade to make a living, conduct mining operations, <stuff you posted>, focus on research and manufacturing, or perform increasingly profitable missions for NPC (non player controlled, run by the EVE system) agents.

Quite a few more there.
Point being, just coz you've got an opinion doesn't make it the right one, and not saying mine is either. If you want to run around saying the sky is green, it's not really anybodies job to tell you you're wrong. It doesn't stop you being wrong though.

Silas Cooper
Posted - 2011.06.09 09:16:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Point being, just coz you've got an opinion doesn't make it the right one, and not saying mine is either. If you want to run around saying the sky is green, it's not really anybodies job to tell you you're wrong. It doesn't stop you being wrong though.


Are you denying that this is a pvp centric game then?

Miss Rabblt
Posted - 2011.06.09 09:23:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Silas Cooper
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Point being, just coz you've got an opinion doesn't make it the right one, and not saying mine is either. If you want to run around saying the sky is green, it's not really anybodies job to tell you you're wrong. It doesn't stop you being wrong though.


Are you denying that this is a pvp centric game then?

yep. i deny it. Eve is MULTIPLAYER game which doesn't equal stupid and plain "pvp centric". Pvp is only part of a multiplayer style. Can't even say this is important part.....

Silas Cooper
Posted - 2011.06.09 09:26:00 - [47]
 

Shows how much you know...

Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
Posted - 2011.06.09 09:27:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 09/06/2011 09:28:25
Originally by: Silas Cooper
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Point being, just coz you've got an opinion doesn't make it the right one, and not saying mine is either. If you want to run around saying the sky is green, it's not really anybodies job to tell you you're wrong. It doesn't stop you being wrong though.


Are you denying that this is a pvp centric game then?


Sure. I also deny it's a PvE-centric game. I'm saying it's a game, and it's pretty misinformed to make the claim either way. Fence-sitting? Maybe. But to me, EVE's a game with PvP and PvE elements in it, none of them primary in purpose.

(or maybe both primary in purpose, to satisfy to very different clientele groups)

Rolare
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.09 09:30:00 - [49]
 

About the whole no-consequence thing.

For the individual player who leaves a wardecced corp/alliance, does it really matter? I can see why the corp-leaves-alliance-and-rejoins-later can be annoying, but if you simply want kills, then wardec someone who doesn't do that >,>

The whole logistic people leaving and such (mentioned by someone earlier), there be plenty of consequences for the corp/alliance. Most notably, apparently their logistics just left. You may argue that it's quite irrelevant since they can still supply stuff to their respective corps, but if it's low/null, you can still kill them.

A war will certainly make it harder for someone, whether it be an individual player or the corp as a whole. If you're just in for the killing, then tough luck, ya better try and kill better.

Regarding the whole PvP-centricity, EVE is a spacesim (or atleast CCP wants it like that), the fact that you have a pretty large freedom to do what you want to do is proof of that.

Also, the argument that since this game has pew pew (or is about it) you have to be able to atleast shoot a bit isn't exactly a good argument. One may say that industrialism and mining are as good professions as any, can you do mining/indy stuff on your main?

That's what the whole "What is EVE about" thing used earlier is about, you have a freedom. Use it and do what you want.

Irulan Corinno
Caldari
714th SQN - Snowflakes
Posted - 2011.06.09 09:38:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Cosmo Raata
And? Those that sit in noob corps and play alone aren't playing the game right anyways.

Is there a right way too play the game? If the game has many ways of playing the game, isn't every possible way automatically right because it's how CCP designed it in the first place?

Silas Cooper
Posted - 2011.06.09 09:42:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Rolare
I make a lot of sense


Yup, but just as non-industrial players have to rely on indies to make them ships and all that, and have to "suffer" issues when it comes to pricing and possibly availability how does that work the other way round. How should NOT putting in effort to learn to defend yourself (or at least have read some guides and learnt a thing or two on avoiding trouble) be a penalty in this game, if one rallies for full safety in high sec?

I'm not saying EVE isn't also about PVE/industrial stuff. But the "waah I'm in high sec , that automatically makes me safe!" and "I don't need to put in some effort to learn about the pvp part of this game" followed by "this should be WOW in space, no one told me playing EVE might hurt!" is just laughable.


lilol' me
Posted - 2011.06.09 09:43:00 - [52]
 

on another sort of same note. I thought there was somethng you had to arrange if a corp surrended? seems they can just surrender and nothing happens? or have i missed somthing,

Rolare
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.09 09:43:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Rolare on 09/06/2011 09:57:27
Edited by: Rolare on 09/06/2011 09:56:58
Also, NPC corp chats are quite entertaining and provide some easy/responsibleless chat, which is kinda nice now and then. At the same time, getting stuff done for real (other than missioning, some mining [because a corp specialized in it is better] and indy stuff [not sure how good]) isn't exactly what happens in them NPC corps.

Can you do sov? Hm... no. Can you do WH? Well, not very well atleast. PvP? Not as well as a PvP corp (or even a PvP/whatever corp). Industrialism? Well, I can certainly imagine being in an indy corp have its perks but I'm not very knowledgeable about it. Mining? If you don't mind doing it alone/with only a few others.

Probably a ton of stuff you can do better in a non-NPC corp., and yes, I do think being in one your whole EVE time is limiting but it's in no way a "wrong" thing.

EDIT: Missed your answer.

Quote:
Yup, but just as non-industrial players have to rely on indies to make them ships and all that, and have to "suffer" issues when it comes to pricing and possibly availability how does that work the other way round. How should NOT putting in effort to learn to defend yourself (or at least have read some guides and learnt a thing or two on avoiding trouble) be a penalty in this game, if one rallies for full safety in high sec?

I'm not saying EVE isn't also about PVE/industrial stuff. But the "waah I'm in high sec , that automatically makes me safe!" and "I don't need to put in some effort to learn about the pvp part of this game" followed by "this should be WOW in space, no one told me playing EVE might hurt!" is just laughable.


You actually rely on someone for ships? Amarr, Jita, Dodixie and that last one have everything you need. That's for highsec supply, when it comes to lowsec/null ya gotta move stuff and so on, so yes you're right that there's a dependency thing there (not that anyone stops you from moving ships from high to low/null yourself).

Regarding defense, it's mightily hard to defend yourself in a industrial ship or a freighter, since y'know... fitting options are so limited. Other than keeping an eye on local/intel, I don't see how one can mount an efficient defense.

Maybe I'm just seeing wars in a different light, I see wars as a way to hurt the other ones, to limit their missioning/trading/business or to simply give them losses. There's little point in running after a single individual, if people start leaving the corp then said corp is screwed. If they reform, well... if you just wanted random war then sucks for you, if you had a good reason to wardec... wardec again?

I do admit, I tend to view corps and alliances as the real thing rather than the one player, so if you're hurting the corp then ya doing it right. Highsec isn't safe anyway and no one (other than idiots) want WoW in space.

It's the usual risk vs. reward, if you're in a NPC corp then you're limited in most stuff you can do very well, as we all know most stuff are easier done/better done when you're in a group. That's the trade-in for being as safe as you can be.

Also, and on this I am showing one of my missing insights regarding alliance wars, isn't a corp still wardecced for 24hr if they leave the alliance during war time? If not, then yes, something isn't exactly right. If yes, then ya still got 24hr to pew pew the corp, wardec them and stop the war with the alliance.

And yes, I do make alot of sense ;)

Mr R4nd0m
Posted - 2011.06.09 09:51:00 - [54]
 

why doesnt this apply?

"The CEO's of the two warring corps get together in the same station, and the terms of the surrender are dealt with."?

Cos the mail you get states that the corp surrended even when they leave. so this should be enforced, shouldnt it?

Sgt Blade
Caldari
Save Yourself Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.09 10:01:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Silas Cooper

Well, perhaps you then should have thought of that a tad sooner and spent some effort getting your SP, experience and knowledge up on the PVP part of the game. Perhaps not to the level of being competitive but at least being able to avoid issues or have *some* idea on what to do. Not realising, or acknowledging, that this is a PVP centric game isn't an excuse. Not if you're older than some arbitrary few months (newbies have a real excuse to not know stuff, older players do not).


Yes this game is PVP centric, market/manufacturing is PVP, just as much PVP as is space pew pew and if a person chooses not to participate in one he shouldn't be forced to / punished for his decision.

Silas Cooper
Posted - 2011.06.09 10:05:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Silas Cooper on 09/06/2011 10:08:53
Originally by: Rolare
You actually rely on someone for ships? Amarr, Jita, Dodixie and that last one have everything you need.


Which are made by industrialists, so you DO rely on them in high sec and thus have to "suffer" their profits :) To me there's zero difference between a trader/industrialist making 10 million profit on a sale or product and a PVPer destroying a ship worth 10 mil.


I'm not really talking about NPC corps and people staying in there, that's a different thing. This is about a corp leaving a wardecced alliance without problems or repercussions, and mostly about the carebears who feel mightily righteous in their belief that being in high sec should somehow completely guard them from harm.

Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.06.09 10:06:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 09/06/2011 10:13:13
Don't forget you only declare war on the corporation, not on the players!!

What's the purpose of a war .. destroying their POS? Stopping them from trading because they're competition? Revenge for calling you names in local? Killmails? Preventing people from playing EVE for whatever reason?

Actually this is a discussion about what the purpose of highsec is or should be.
Originally by: ThereAreNoBugsInEve
the war dec alliance pays big money only to have targets flee.

Big money - don't make me laugh.
Originally by: Silas Cooper
the carebears who feel mightily righteous in their belief that being in high sec should somehow completely guard them from harm.

You can attempt suicide ganking them?

Mr R4nd0m
Posted - 2011.06.09 10:12:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 09/06/2011 10:07:51
Don't forget you only declare war on the corporation, not on the players!!

What's the purpose of a war .. destroying their POS? Stopping them from trading because they're competition? Revenge for calling you names in local? Killmails? preventing people from playing EVE?

Actually this is a discussion about what the purpose of highsec is or should be.
Originally by: ThereAreNoBugsInEve
the war dec alliance pays big money only to have targets flee.

Big money - don't make me laugh.



Do you have any idea how much it costs? If you dec a few alliances that can cost a billion upwards PER WEEK!!! Please dont post if you dont have a clue...

Rolare
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.09 10:12:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Silas Cooper
Edited by: Silas Cooper on 09/06/2011 10:06:17
Which are made by industrials, so you DO rely on them in high sec and thus have to "suffer" their profits :) To me there's zero difference between a trader/industrialist making 10 million profit on a sale or product and a PVPer destroying a ship worth 10 mil.


I'm not really talking about NPC's corp and people staying in there, that's a different thing. This is about a corp leaving a wardecced alliance without problems or repercussions, and mostly about the carebears who feel mightily righteous in their belief that being in high sec should somehow completely guard you from harm.


Just don't like people saying NPC corp = carebears who doesn't wanna do anything.

Point in fact is, the market competition tough enough to give you good prices in those places, therefore your dependency is quite mitigated by the fact, that there are so many of them. Unlike in a corp where their logistics just left, because now, you know, it's just a couple of people and not a ton of people.

Quote:
If a Corporation decides to leave an alliance that has an ongoing war, the members of that Corporation are valid war targets for the next 24 hours after they have left the alliance.


So it's not exactly like they leave the corp and are automatically free, not for the first 24hr (which I also did mention on the end of my last post). It's from EVElopedia by the way, if you should want a source.

Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.06.09 10:30:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Mr R4nd0m
Do you have any idea how much it costs? If you dec a few alliances that can cost a billion upwards PER WEEK!!! Please dont post if you dont have a clue...

Wel then you must have multiple alliances wardecced for multiple weeks.
Why would you want that anyway?


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