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Seamus Donohue
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.07 14:05:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Seamus Donohue on 23/06/2011 04:59:51
Edited by: Seamus Donohue on 23/06/2011 04:59:05
Edited by: Seamus Donohue on 15/06/2011 16:58:17
This might be a question for Transgaming.

So far, I've been using the instructions here to set up multiple EVE Online clients on my Mac. However, with the newest Singularity build, I've noticed that my Singularity client is making an "EVE Online" folder in "Application Support" rather than making an "EVE Online Singularity Preferences" folder in the "Preferences" folder, despite my setting the following keys in the info.plist file in the EVE Online Singularity package:

<key>PrefsFolderName</key>
<string>EVE Online Singularity</string>

What, precisely, has changed? Also, how will this affect the ability to run multiple clients on a Macintosh when Incarna is released?

Thank you in advance.

EDIT: I direct reader's attention to Post 25 of the present thread.

da go
Posted - 2011.06.07 15:32:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Seamus Donohue
Also, how will this affect the ability to run multiple clients on a Macintosh when Incarna is released?
Most importantly, how will this affect the ability to run multiple clients with differring versions? And that of running multiple clients with different preference options?

Sue Cheng
Posted - 2011.06.09 08:24:00 - [3]
 

I am worried, can a dev respond here?

Adeiko
Posted - 2011.06.09 20:58:00 - [4]
 

I've been having loads of issues with the new patch and multiple clients. Before I had absolutely no issue. Since the patch I've experienced two issues:

command + tab no longer lets me move between instances of the client. The icon for the Eve application is no longer even there to select from.

switching between minimized instances (my workaround) sometimes causes freezes and crashes. By sometimes I mean once every ten or fifteen minutes I'll get an error message and have to close the client when I restore it. The freezing can be fixed by minimizing and restoring the application several times repeatedly.

I'm not a seasoned Mac user (my PC died on me a few weeks ago, this is my wife's computer), but I can provide any info that will help if it is relevant.

Seamus Donohue
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.15 17:01:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: da go
Originally by: Seamus Donohue
Also, how will this affect the ability to run multiple clients on a Macintosh when Incarna is released?
Most importantly, how will this affect the ability to run multiple clients with differring versions? And that of running multiple clients with different preference options?
Differing versions probably isn't an issue, because anything that's not up to the current version will probably be told "INCOMPATIBLE". Different preference options is a good question, though, because I color the windows on my different clients differently so I don't get confused as to which one I'm looking at.

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:18:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Seamus Donohue
Originally by: da go
Originally by: Seamus Donohue
Also, how will this affect the ability to run multiple clients on a Macintosh when Incarna is released?
Most importantly, how will this affect the ability to run multiple clients with differring versions? And that of running multiple clients with different preference options?
Differing versions probably isn't an issue, because anything that's not up to the current version will probably be told "INCOMPATIBLE". Different preference options is a good question, though, because I color the windows on my different clients differently so I don't get confused as to which one I'm looking at.


Oddly, the color is remembered separately for each account, even in one prefs file. I use the multiple instance method of triple boxing, which means I'm using the same prefs file for all 3 client instances, all at the same time. And I gave them all different colors, and they are remembered.

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
Posted - 2011.06.15 23:06:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Rees Noturana on 15/06/2011 23:06:49
Originally by: Vincent Athena
Oddly, the color is remembered separately for each account, even in one prefs file. I use the multiple instance method of triple boxing, which means I'm using the same prefs file for all 3 client instances, all at the same time. And I gave them all different colors, and they are remembered.


I'm hoping we will get some sort of official announcement about this too. Deep down I really hope they are working on multiple client support and this is part of it.

Still, I filed a bug on it: #112781, but it hasn't been touched yet. The more bugs about it the better.

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
Posted - 2011.06.16 01:06:00 - [8]
 

@CCP Atropos

Thanks for all the updates today on the Mac client. The more you talk to us the more we'll try and help you out. I know half my bug reports haven't even been filtered yet but I'll continue to write them when I can get in.

Can we get an update on this issue too? For those of us that want to run multiple clients next week it'd be good to know how this is going to affect us.

da go
Posted - 2011.06.16 01:35:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Seamus Donohue
Differing versions probably isn't an issue, because anything that's not up to the current version will probably be told "INCOMPATIBLE". Different preference options is a good question, though, because I color the windows on my different clients differently so I don't get confused as to which one I'm looking at.
Incompatible only happen when the protocol changes. Play on different servers and you'll mostly need different versions. Also it has happened in the past that the best testing combo was to run the current SiSi eve client on top of the current TQ cider (or vice versa), something you needed to do by assembling the app bundle yourself.

For regular TQ play when the TQ client works, there is no issue. But for testing future clients or fixing yourself a broken TQ client (ok, this hasn't happened in the last 2 years, but it did in the past and may in the future) multiple versions are a necessity.

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
Posted - 2011.06.20 15:43:00 - [10]
 

This issue is my last outstanding bug that I've filed with CCP. All others have been resolved or attached to known defects. Less than a day before this goes live too.

My bug #112781

Any information CCP / Transgaming?

da go
Posted - 2011.06.20 18:44:00 - [11]
 

The craziest part is that effective tomorrow, we will have exactly this problem.
As soon as both TQ and SiSi will open up, there'll be no way to have separate clients.

I'm already considering writing a couple of scripts to automate switching from a configuration to the other. Unfortunately this will not solve the problem with multiple configs for clients running at the same time, but at least I'll be able to switch from TQ to SiSi and back.

Toshiko Kin
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2011.06.21 22:32:00 - [12]
 

Any word on whether we'll be able to run multi client setups under incarna? Seems that '~/Library/Application Support/EVE Online' is hard coded somewhere cause it isn't reading the info.plist at all. Neutral

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
Posted - 2011.06.21 22:47:00 - [13]
 

I tested my existing multi client setup and they all launched using the preferences of the client I first upgraded to Incarna. You can force OS X to run the same app more than once using the terminal: "open -n /Applications/EVE\ Online.app" but all instances will use that one folder. It seems all our existing techniques are now trashed.

Although we can't login yet to see what will happen I'm concerned about the different clients all trying to write to the same files and clobbering each other's data. Should make for some interesting and random bugginess. Guess we'll find out soon.

This issue had multiple forum threads in a quiet corner of the forums, none of which were answered. My bug has yet to be filtered while all others have been. Even tried Twitter to no avail. I'd rather they just say "oops, we'll look into it" instead of not saying anything at all.

da go
Posted - 2011.06.21 22:47:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Toshiko Kin
Any word on whether we'll be able to run multi client setups under incarna? Seems that '~/Library/Application Support/EVE Online' is hard coded somewhere cause it isn't reading the info.plist at all. Neutral
What do you think this whole thread is about?

And no, it seems we'll not be able to have multiple configs, including not being able to login to SiSi whenever the SiSi version is flagged as TQ (unless we manually edit the main and only config and then we will be able to connect to SiSi but not to TQ).

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.06.21 22:47:00 - [15]
 

I usually run multiple clients all using the same prefs file, so that (hopefully) will still work). But switching from TQ to Sisi will be a mess.

Then again, maybe this is the issue they are fixing at the last minute.

Krispy Dingo
Minmatar
The Night Crew
Posted - 2011.06.22 04:12:00 - [16]
 

Instead of changing the prefs folder name like we always have before, change the bundle name. A second folder will be created in ~/Library/Application Support and the settings for that client will be stored there.

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
Posted - 2011.06.22 05:30:00 - [17]
 

Thanks Krispy!

Krispy Dingo
Minmatar
The Night Crew
Posted - 2011.06.22 12:49:00 - [18]
 

I just wanted to say a little more about this, because it was late when I posted that.

I don't think that the moving of the Preferences file from ~/Library/Preferences to ~/Library/Application Support is actually bug. If you noticed, when you first launched Incarna, all of your settings were copied over. It's not like this is an odd place to store the Preferences, either. To me, it just feels like an undocumented change as opposed to a bug.

As for moving towards multiple client support, CCP has always stated that they do not officially support running multiple clients at the same time. It is always best to have different folders for your preferences so you do not get errors when trying to read/write to the same folder.

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
Posted - 2011.06.22 12:56:00 - [19]
 

With everything running late and a crisis at work I haven't been able to fully test this. However, even allowing multiple instances of one copy of EVE to run from the one App Support folder it seems like they have different preferences based on the login. If it is as simple as this I'll try and whip up a startup script for those that don't like the terminal.

Looks like Krispy's 'Bundle Name' works too but will cost you more disk space.

Krispy Dingo
Minmatar
The Night Crew
Posted - 2011.06.22 13:36:00 - [20]
 

Changing the bundle name adds about 170MB or so with the additional prefs folders, same as it currently is. As for your additional clients, instead of copying the full client all over again, you can make symbolic links to the application contents of your first EVE client install in the second, third, et al (I had 4 running at once like that), keeping a unique info.plist in each one, and save on all that extra disk space, which has ballooned to over 9GB now.

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
Posted - 2011.06.22 14:04:00 - [21]
 

That's what my last setup was. I think I'll still try using one client with one app support folder for a while, just forcing new copies to open from the command line and see how that works.

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.06.22 18:36:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Rees Noturana
That's what my last setup was. I think I'll still try using one client with one app support folder for a while, just forcing new copies to open from the command line and see how that works.


That works for me. Ran 3 clients, all with CQ up and it worked on my MBP.

With all setting to low I only got 12 fps though.

da go
Posted - 2011.06.22 20:01:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: da go on 22/06/2011 20:03:45
This is going to be a 3-post long wall-o-text with an answer to Tippia, some platform specific (and technical) considerations and a little ranting mood.

No tl:dr but nothing important (and the more interesting part for most players is the third post).


I'm moving the discussion here from another thread, therefore let me establish a little bit of context.

Originally by: Matavhe Rems
Further, I saw a note early in this thread that the test version was putting the prefs file in the wrong directory and it WAS KNOWN AT THE TIME.
Originally by: Tippia
Known bug. Was reported on Sisi a month ago.
Originally by: da go
This is not a bug. This is an intended change in cider that tries to align it with Apple rules (it's most probably part of a set of changes that they did in this regard as Lion, coming out next month, is going to be somewhat stricter in what is allowed and what is frowned upon).

The problem is that the EvE client itself should manage the cache and other files it creates expecting multiple running instances, but it does not. It's a problem of interaction between EVE and cider, not a problem of cider or a problem of eve. Not the first time this kind of problems surface. In the past it took them a couple of months after deployment to fix up.
Originally by: Tippia
Ok, fair enough, but I'm still questioning why it makes sense. Will Lion do away with the Preference directory, and if not, why shouldn't this stuff go in there? And why should the client ignore its own plist? And why should it not be able to use multiple preference sets for multiple instances? And… so on…
Originally by: da go
It's 5 am. Mind if I answer this tomorrow? Mind if I answer it in one of the other threads (those specific to that probelm)?
Originally by: Tippia
Do go (sorry, couldn't resist… Razz).


So, here I do go Razz

As you probably know Lion is still under NDA, but I do not think this discussion is going to violate any secret.

I did not intend to imply (nor I now intend to deny) anything about Lion usage of the "~/Library/Preferences" directory. I just wanted to point out that the new placement for most of the data is more in line with Apple guidelines (in all versions of OsX). Do not forget that Cider is not specific to EvE, even if the build of Cider that CCP uses is somewhat "personalized" for EVE, the baseline code is the same TG is using for all their "ciders". If you look into the actual files that are in the EVE Preferences folder, you do realize that nearly all of them are supposed to be in a subdirectory of "~/Library/Application Support" according to Apple guidelines. And that's exactly where they are now.

Granted many of those files should NOT be there, according to the guidelines. Also some of those files should have a completely different format. But this is pretty hard to do for TG because the EVE executable is a windows executable and some of those files are created and used by EVE itself, not by cider. EVE decides what their format is and where (in terms of a windows path) to put them. The way it probably works now is that EVE uses paths into a "C" drive for static files and into a "P" drive for dynamic files. Cider maps the virtual "C" drive root into a directory that is embedded in the app bundle and the virtual "P" drive into a directory that is below the "EVE Preferences Folder". If you locate those you see those folders have a fake windows hierarchy behind them to make it easy for game developers.

Easy and practical solution to the problem.

da go
Posted - 2011.06.22 20:01:00 - [24]
 

Except that EVE does something strange:
1) it requires separate folders for running multiple concurrent instances
2) it requires separate folders for managing multiple ingame setups
3) it (sometimes) require a command line argument to differentiate TQ and SiSi installations

On top of this, cider (and in general OsX applications) is not supposed to use separate "preferences" for separate instances (and cider in particular is not designed for multiple instances).

From TG's point of view, as cider is supposed to have only one instance running and only one set of preferences, moving those data into a better place is a no brainer. It's the game that is supposed to let you login multiple accounts at the same time from a single instance (this is in fact a common OsX paradigm, not a cider specific one). You are not supposed to run multiple client instaces to be able to do that. Except this is not the case (at least not for EVE).

Also you should be able to "command" the game to login to the test server or the main server (or a selection of shard servers, or whatever) from the game GUI itself. Except that this also is not the case for EVE. Worse: when the client for SiSi is identical to the one on TQ, not only there's nothing in the static files you can edit to force it to connect to SiSi, but even if there was you would not be able to edit it because the client will fail the startup checksum it does as an anti-tampering measure.

In other words TG's changes make sense, but are bad specifically for EVE.

So, to answer Tippia's questions:
- it makes sense because it is what should have been done since the beginning
- what Lion does is irrelevant, that stuff should have gone there even in Tiger
- the plist entry is not ignored. it's used differently. it does not point any more to the preferences folder to use but to the old preference folder to import settings during the first run (try it: I did import the settings from a non-standar-named preferences folder by editing the plist and deleting the new application support folder I had from SiSi tests)
- that's the real question! Why not multiple preferences.

It's a system level convention that an application has only one application support directory and only one preferences file. The application is supposed to manage multiple preference sets internally, if that's what it's usage calls for. Also an application should not use command line arguments and instead use a GUI to select the specific processing it is to perform (there are a few special cases related to opening a file/document and to printing a file/document that are hystorically "commands" that are supposedly a "minimal" interapplication communication protocol, mostly used by the finder. But those too are hystorical leftovers and modern interapplication communication should be done with the Cocoa Scripting facility).

Therefore it all boils down to the non surprising fact that EVE (a windows program) does not obey common OsX conventions.

da go
Posted - 2011.06.22 20:02:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: da go on 22/06/2011 20:05:00
And there lies the real problem: EVE is not designed for the Mac. So TG and CCP should always pay special care when they touch something that affects whatever is the current solution to this impedence mismatch. And they should document it properly and communicate it promptly to the playerbase.

Unfortunately this in fact has never happened. When the documentation appears it's mostly because some player (and in some cases a tester) found out the solution by guesswork and trial and error. There've been very few exceptions to this. But this problem is NOT an exception.

This time the uber hero is Krispy Dingo. As he found out and relayed in post 16 of this very thread, TG decided to use the name of the bundle, as specified in another key of the info.plist file, as the name of the subdirectory of "~/Library/Appliction Support" that is used by the client instance. This is a solution (or more exactly the most important missing piece of information we needed to find solutions) to all the problems we were foreseeing.

If someone thinks that the bundle name key in the info.plist file is supposed to specify exactly that, let me tell you that this is not the case. TG (or in fact CCP) should have documented this to us the moment they started to use the new cider version, a lot of time ago. No only they didn't. They also "forgot" to answer us when we started asking a month ago. Nor they responded to the many bug reports. CCP should really really consider this FACT: not documenting and not answering is, ultimately, an actual cost for them. Cost in terms of forum mess, pending bug reports that are not answered (but still need to be managed somehow), time spent by testers wondering if there was an answer somewhere, annoyance to the playerbase (especially those helping them out). All these are REAL COSTS. Think about it CCP.


Let me add a bit of information: according to Apple developer's documentation the bundle name is a (localizable) string and shall not exceed 16 characters. I do not think anything terrible will happen if you exceed that limit, but I do not recommend it. Also, since TG is using it as a filesystem object name, you should avoid characters that are not supposed to be used or have a special meaning in that context. I did not yet try what happens and to what extent TG did validation, if you are tech savvy and adventurous you may want to experiment. Else just play it safe.

Also, regarding symlinking to save space when creating multiple bundles for multiple concurrent clients, from experiments in the past I strongly recommend:
- do not force-run from the command line multiple instances of the same bundle. create separate bundles. If you do not, expect instability (see next suggestion)
- each bundle should be configured to use a separate settings/preferences folder. If you do not expect instability down the line (will not be immediately evident and will not always happen, but it will eventually happen)
- I suggest symlinking the Contents/Resources/transgaming directory and duplicating everything above that (duplicated files are not that heavy and you'll be more stable).

Trillian Arrow
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:08:00 - [26]
 

Thanks Krispy Dingo and da go! Great work and I agree with your comments!

Trillan

Neuri Kurvora
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:45:00 - [27]
 

For anyone looking for a step-by-step guide to getting a second client running, there's a guide up on the Eve University Wiki.

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Dual-Boxing_on_a_Mac

Updated for Incarna 1.0, using Krispy Dingo's solution. Thanks mate!

Matt Crendraven
Posted - 2011.06.23 19:14:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Matt Crendraven on 23/06/2011 19:30:05
Edited by: Matt Crendraven on 23/06/2011 19:15:12
Does anybody else have any issues when modifying the ~/Library/Application Support/Eve Online/config file to add the custom server address? I've been able to successfully run Eve, prior to Incarna, over an SSH tunnel so I had my server IP set to 127.0.0.1. I have applied the same config file entry to Incarna as I did before and it still wants to connect to the 87.237.38.200 address. It seems like the following line in the config file no longer works at all:

[AppDefaults\\EVE.exe\\transgaming]
"cmdlineadd" = "/server:127.0.0.1"

UPDATE: Not sure what happened but it seems to be working fine now.

Tug McLub
Posted - 2011.06.23 20:46:00 - [29]
 

well...
I have the new Mac Pro 12-core with 8 gigs ram and the HD 5870 ATI Radeon graphics Card. I can run Maya, After effects, photoshop, Finalcut Pro and a bunch of audio programs all at once with no problems at all....

I can run ONE eve client ok...TWO only at the lowest settings possible, and it doesn't work all the time... THREE, I get black screen and it freezes my comp.....

FIX YOUR **** CCP, i know its not my setup.

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
Posted - 2011.06.23 21:09:00 - [30]
 

Thanks for the summary da go. This was a bit too painful when guidance should have been provided in advance.


 

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