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blankseplocked CQ is nice, I guess. But lack of sufficient options = INSTAHATE
 
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Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.06.06 00:16:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Kogh Ayon
As far as it perorms better than WOW. Anyone like to have a compare?


Umm ... What?

I can raid with 25 other players running WoW on my machine. I can't even walk in CQ on my machine, by myself, in one room. Docking is increased from ~20s to ~2m. The UI is non-interactable during the CQ loading period. No talking to agents, no interaction with the fitting window (which itself takes three or so minutes to load, thanks to the combination of rendering CQ and trying to render new turrets).

We can still admire the new turret artwork using existing station-spinning environment. I'd like the option to dock as we do presently, with the option of leaving the ship to enter TQ when I feel like it.

Don't worry, CCP, I'll be spending plenty of (someone else's) real money on Incarna vanity items, since my avatar doesn't mind when I just want to stand in front of the mirror and look at pretty clothes for an hour.

Royaldo
Gallente
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch.
Sev3rance
Posted - 2011.06.06 01:00:00 - [62]
 

Keep up the good work Akita

Mortania
Minmatar
No Compromise
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2011.06.06 02:51:00 - [63]
 

CQ = the forums debacle writ large.

Options are essential.

Namak Bulu
Gallente
Villore Regional Industries
Posted - 2011.06.06 03:17:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Namak Bulu on 06/06/2011 03:18:25
I don't yet have an opinion on the new CQ features really aside from one thing, the short-sighted arguements i've read here are astounding to me. Esspecially anything concerning vanity.

Pointless now? Yea perhaps... I'm just wondering for how long. Micro-transactions for cosmetic items won't be the only point to CQs, only a hook. Much more profound implications rest with CQs and the entire carbon project I think.

Reguardless of any of that, you can bet that there will be performance tweaks done before release, and most likely afterwards. And people need to understand that a game will not survive in one state forever, EVE is only changing again. Immersion is long overdue, and so is even more tweaks to easing new players into the very complex universe that is EVE Online. I won't even get into the list of fixes to gameplay that are long overdue either. I have simply taken a back seat to see where they go with it. Then I shall make my decisions on how I feel about it. Again it astounds me how many people get hung up on the word "pointless" as they seem to think this is the end of it.

But thats just my point of view. But I will say that micro-transactions for vanity items in a game like EVE very much strikes me as Odd...

Joan Avon
Amarr
We See Dead People
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.06.06 03:45:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Cailais
CQ is the point of sale portal for micro-transactions so I think its very unlikely that CCP will want players to circumvent that marketing tool.

All those screens in CQ are there for a reason - and that reason is to persuade you to get your credit card out. No marketing / sales strategy would want you to miss that vendor space so we can be 99% certain that CQ will be pretty much the only option available.

C.



This.
How is the new micro-transaction market supposed to bring in revenue if people have the option to skip the market itself as well as the main showcase for it's products? that would be like renting a slot in a shopping mall, walling up the entrance from the inside of the mall and putting a new one in the back alley behind the mall. ugh

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.06.06 03:55:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Joan Avon
How is the new micro-transaction market supposed to bring in revenue if people have the option to skip the market itself as well as the main showcase for it's products? that would be like renting a slot in a shopping mall, walling up the entrance from the inside of the mall and putting a new one in the back alley behind the mall. ugh
No. It would be like renting a slot in a shopping mall, and then not hiring a press-gang to get people in the bar across the street visit the shop and instead letting people who come to the shopping mall discover the place at their leisure.

Joan Avon
Amarr
We See Dead People
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.06.06 03:58:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Joan Avon
How is the new micro-transaction market supposed to bring in revenue if people have the option to skip the market itself as well as the main showcase for it's products? that would be like renting a slot in a shopping mall, walling up the entrance from the inside of the mall and putting a new one in the back alley behind the mall. ugh
No. It would be like renting a slot in a shopping mall, and then not hiring a press-gang to get people in the bar across the street visit the shop and instead letting people who come to the shopping mall discover the place at their leisure.


How would that serve to increase revenue? your shop would be bankrupt and shuttered long before enough people "discovered" it and leisurely shopped in it

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.06.06 04:05:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 06/06/2011 04:09:02
Originally by: Joan Avon
How would that serve to increase revenue? your shop would be bankrupt and shuttered long before enough people "discovered" it and leisurely shopped in it
It will be equally (or more) bankrupt since the people who get ripped away from the beer and darts they had planned to enjoy and who are now instead forced to look at shoes will be… let's call it disinclined to actually buy anything. They're more likely to just badmouth the place and its less than stellar promotional tactics to anyone who is willing to listen (and quite a few who aren't).

The store has put enough full-page ads and block-spanning marquees out there to get the attention of anyone who's interested, so those coercive tactics are both unnecessary and risky.

Salyut Hugs
Posted - 2011.06.06 04:10:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: Salyut Hugs on 06/06/2011 04:11:15
Edited by: Salyut Hugs on 06/06/2011 04:10:12
If CQ comes out as an option and it doesn't work properly or it's boring, time consuming. It will become synonymous with 'laggy piece of ****' anda lot of players will never want to bother with it again. It will get a horrible reputation, be unused and people will cry for CCP ro make it go away.

If CCP makes it an integral part of the game not only will players get used to it. But even CCP will be forced to improve it. So actually it's good considering CCP's track record of abandoning things.

Very HappyVery Happy

I am right, everyone who disagrees with me is wrong!! Twisted EvilTwisted Evil

Joan Avon
Amarr
We See Dead People
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.06.06 04:10:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Joan Avon
How would that serve to increase revenue? your shop would be bankrupt and shuttered long before enough people "discovered" it and leisurely shopped in it
It will be equally (or more) bankrupt since the people who get ripped away from the beer and darts they had planned to enjoy and who are now instead forced to look at shoes will be… let's call it disinclined to actually buy anything. They're more likely to just badmouth the place and its less than stellar promotional tactics to anyone who is willing to listen (and quite a few who aren't).


then perhaps the solution is to take the shoes to the bar and offer a free drink or two with every shoe purchase.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.06.06 04:14:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Joan Avon
then perhaps the solution is to take the shoes to the bar and offer a free drink or two with every shoe purchase.
…and as soon as Incarna is actually released (with some useful content), there will be plenty of "Show off your character/place/installation" threads — and even competitions with prizes — to do exactly that.

And either way, that's something completely different than forcing people to use stuff they don't want to use.

Culmen
Caldari
Culmenation
Posted - 2011.06.06 04:25:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Joan Avon
Originally by: Tippia
No. It would be like renting a slot in a shopping mall, and then not hiring a press-gang to get people in the bar across the street visit the shop and instead letting people who come to the shopping mall discover the place at their leisure.


How would that serve to increase revenue? your shop would be bankrupt and shuttered long before enough people "discovered" it and leisurely shopped in it


You do realize the point of advertising is to
Step 1: Bring Attention to your Product
Step 2: Convince people to BUY IT

Alot of people get step 1 down, but not Step 2, despite step 2 being perhaps more important than step 1.

Forcing this mess down people's throats is not going make people say "Wow! I really want to get some Aurum!"
It's going to make people say "Wow! This is crap and I'm not playing"
The decision to force people into the store isn't going to make people want to buy stuff, it's going to make people go to a different mall.

Cpt Fina
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
space weaponry and trade
Posted - 2011.06.06 04:41:00 - [73]
 

I'm less worried about the few negative aspects of QC's implementation than I am of that CCP always have tried to cater to everyones playstyle, promoted diversity and have had new features being optional but now making an u-turn by force feeding the community with this even though it seems that it doesn't have to be like that, from an outsiders perspective atleast.
Damn that's a long sentence.

Taisha Noran Concordia
Posted - 2011.06.06 04:43:00 - [74]
 

* MANDATORY - separate the CQ from the non-CQ graphics detail settings into two completely separate groups which you can set differently
* MANDATORY - keep the ESC menu option to not load any environment at all
* STRONGLY PREFERRED - add some even lower graphics detail levels for CQ
* OPTIONAL - do not delete the current hangar environments AND make them an alternative (default disabled) via the ESC menu


I can't emphasize how much I agree with every point here. CCP will have an immense number of people coming here to speak their mind if this isn't implemented. Why is that single room so demanding on resources? I think it's been severely overdone.

Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.06 06:29:00 - [75]
 

Edited by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet on 06/06/2011 06:32:59
I would like CQ to be completely enforced, with the UI disappearing and the player entering from the edge of the balcony. Accessing the market and hangar must be done in the main CQ room, after a 30 second walk from the balcony to the screens.

This will achieve 2 things:
1. Kill botting
2. Create enough whining to fill CCP's "Necessary whine quota" for the next 4 years.



Also,
Originally by: Mara Rinn
The UI is non-interactable during the CQ loading period. No talking to agents, no interaction with the fitting window (which itself takes three or so minutes to load, thanks to the combination of rendering CQ and trying to render new turrets).


No. Wrong. You either ran a duality build which was released sometime last century, or encountered a bug which you should report instead of complaining about.

Mirabi Tiane
Posted - 2011.06.06 06:33:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Namak Bulu
EVE is only changing again. Immersion is long overdue

Good job ignoring my arguments. The current implementation of CQ harms immersion.

Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.06 06:36:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Mirabi Tiane
Originally by: Namak Bulu
EVE is only changing again. Immersion is long overdue

Good job ignoring my arguments. The current implementation of CQ harms immersion.

I agree EVE is completely immersive and 1000% better when all you see is a loading screen constantly there and CQ never finishes loading because why would a capsuleer get out of their pod every single time it makes no sense I mean a loading screen is so much more believable and immersive and better and I am glad CCP hate CQ as much as I do and let me not load station environments which break immersion loading screens are so much better.

Mirabi Tiane
Posted - 2011.06.06 06:43:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: Mirabi Tiane on 06/06/2011 06:46:57
Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Originally by: Mirabi Tiane
Originally by: Namak Bulu
EVE is only changing again. Immersion is long overdue

Good job ignoring my arguments. The current implementation of CQ harms immersion.

I agree EVE is completely immersive and 1000% better when all you see is a loading screen constantly there and CQ never finishes loading because why would a capsuleer get out of their pod every single time it makes no sense I mean a loading screen is so much more believable and immersive and better and I am glad CCP hate CQ as much as I do and let me not load station environments which break immersion loading screens are so much better.

That's why I have said that the current option is not enough and the classic hangar view should return as default with an unmissable "Decant" or "Enter CQ" button.
Edit: Apparently I haven't said that in this thread, but you must be aware of the other threads, else you're missing out on trolling opportunities.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.06.06 07:21:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: Tres Farmer on 06/06/2011 07:25:25
Interesting that CCP still didn't address this.. you'd think they would learn over the years.

PS: I love the CQ and welcome it. Wanted it since I heard from it the first time at Dec/2005. But the current implementation tries to be a jack of all trades, where a focused approach for a speciality tool would be more wise (see regular, small patches instead of one big expansion - same principle could be applied here).
Keep simple ship hangar view for a grace period until you sorted out heavy load and bugs on TQ. Let's say 3 months.

+1

MaiLina KaTar
Posted - 2011.06.06 07:30:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 06/06/2011 07:35:21
Originally by: Grey Stormshadow
However... Incarna is part of EVEs future and captains quarters is only the beginning. It is important that people try to get used to it, test it and give feedback from the experience.

Look.... there is one very important fact the "pro CQ" crowd around these forums needs to understand:

Most of the complaints around here do not criticise against Incarna per se. What they are criticising is the way it is being implemented. While the feature itself is all fine and most probably a great thing for the future of the game, it will be a deterrent and damaging to the game if it is rushed out and forced down people's throats. And by the looks of it this is exactly what CCP are doing right now. Whether that is intentional or not doesn't matter.

This is launching on June 21st. What that means is the stuff you see on Duality/SiSi right now is pretty much what you're gonna get come Incarna launch on Jun 21st. The people who are b****ing against CQ right now... most of them are actually the "pro CCP" guys warning them to be more careful and listen to their customers more, because they know that rushing features out like this is not cool and CCP's track record on that front isn't really the greatest either when it comes to fixing these things in a reasonable timeframe. Some of the bugs that have been here since game launch still haven't been touched. I know this for a fact... because I've been here watching their progress since early beta.

So please, guys, do yourselves a favor a stop flaming everyone who speaks out against launching CQ in its current form, because most of the critique is very very valid and should be a primary concern to CCP right now.

CQ in its current form = bad game design. It will do exactly the opposite of what CCP are planning, meaning that it will not increase the immersion but much rather bite away huge chunks of it, replacing it with black screens.

Joan Avon
Amarr
We See Dead People
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.06.06 07:40:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 06/06/2011 07:34:18
Originally by: Grey Stormshadow
However... Incarna is part of EVEs future and captains quarters is only the beginning. It is important that people try to get used to it, test it and give feedback from the experience.

Look.... there is one very important fact the "pro CQ" crowd around these forums needs to understand:

Most of the complaints around here do not criticise against Incarna per se. What they are criticising is the way it is being implemented. While the feature itself is all fine and most probably a great thing for the future of the game, it will be a deterrent and damaging to the game if it is rushed out and forced down people's throats. And by the looks of it this is exactly what CCP are doing right now.

This is launching on June 21st. What that means is the stuff you see on Duality/SiSi right now is pretty much what you're gonna get come Incarna launch on Jun 21st. The people who are b****ing against CQ right now... most of them are actually the "pro CCP" guys warning them to be more careful and listen to their customers more, because they know that rushing features out like this is not cool and CCP's track record on that front isn't really the greatest either when it comes to fixing these things in a reasonable timeframe. Some of the bugs that have been here since game launch still haven't been touched. I know this for a fact... because I've been here watching their progress since early beta.

So please, guys, do yourselves a favor a stop flaming everyone who speaks out against launching CQ in its current form, because most of the critique is very very valid and should be a primary concern to CCP right now.

CQ in its current form = bad game design. It will do exactly the opposite of what CCP are planning, meaning that it will not increase the immersion but much rather bite away huge chunks of it, replacing it with black screens.


Incarna is doing what CCP knows it needs to do which is break out of the current niche it's t****d in and open up eve to a wider audience by making Eve more accessable and interesting to the greater general public. Eve is no longer as spaceship only game because that alone is not enough to increase CCP's market share and subscription base beyond it's current small share.

Cyaxares II
Posted - 2011.06.06 07:44:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Cyaxares II on 06/06/2011 07:45:09

There are "too soon, take time to polish" complaints before every expansion... Rolling Eyes

Much like with movies there are only a couple of months in which you can release MMO expansions... if CCP doesn't get it out in June, they'll have to delay it until fall. No point releasing an expansion when all the potential new subscribers are hanging out on the beach...

You have to give them time to notice the game and get hooked up on it before they go on holidays...

Jacob Holland
Gallente
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
Posted - 2011.06.06 07:50:00 - [83]
 

The early video of the exit from the pod suggested that it was something of a traumatic experience.
That it was something you did because you had to, because there were things you couldn't do in your ship.

If every time we dock, have (no longer Scotty) shouting at us as we try to switch ships before the session change timer and undock immediately we get out, get dressed and wander into our CQ then that removes that trauma entirely.

I would agree that the CQ should be in addition to the existing station environment rather than instead of it. In an ideal world CQ would be encouraged by adding those things we cannot do in our ship but as there's no interactive area as yet...
It makes sense as a business case to force people into CQ but it would be better from a story perspective to make it another layer.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.06.06 07:59:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Cyaxares II
There are "too soon, take time to polish" complaints before every expansion... Rolling Eyes

And in the past two years, almost always justified and then some.

Quote:
Much like with movies there are only a couple of months in which you can release MMO expansions... if CCP doesn't get it out in June, they'll have to delay it until fall. No point releasing an expansion when all the potential new subscribers are hanging out on the beach...

For paid-for polished expansions, sure, it might make some sense.
For rushed free expansions however... it makes none.

Quote:
You have to give them time to notice the game and get hooked up on it before they go on holidays...

Because, god forbid anybody should NOT be there when the buggiest of the possible versions go live to get a chance to be turned off by it, we can't have people coming in after it's been live for a few weeks or months and the most egregious bugs smoothed out...
Twisted Evil

Anddeh McNab
Cadre Assault Force
Posted - 2011.06.06 08:22:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Given the current lack of separate graphics detail options and the abysmal FPS gap, even people that WANT to fiddle around with CQ will eventually end up NOT loading it most of the time.


Also, CQ seems to load with max settings first time it boots. This effectively killed my laptop till I could turn it down and changing the settings at about half a frame a second was just plain painful.

There will be a huge torrent of "WTF is this?" threads from clueless people come the 21st, I'm placing bets on around ten ragequit threads within the first 24 hours of the servers coming back up. But I digress, if nothing else would be nice to be able to copy paste "Turn off Load Station Environments in Display and Graphics settings" for those that don't want to take part in CQ.

Afterall, EVE has an opt out option for everything else. Except PvP Twisted Evil

MaiLina KaTar
Posted - 2011.06.06 08:39:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 06/06/2011 08:57:50
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 06/06/2011 08:44:49
Originally by: Cyaxares II
There are "too soon, take time to polish" complaints before every expansion... Rolling Eyes

This is not about polish, it's about the core design.

A good game designer would have realized right from the get go that taking away the hangar view and load CQ on every dock would be a bad idea. Not only does it not make sense in terms of roleplay... it forces the client to load high detail enviroments for features that the advanced player will not use most of the time. This is especially true for this first implementation of Incarna.

Forcing the client to load CQ every time does not make sense. CCPs design team should have realized this right from the start and personally I am criticising them harshly for this major flaw in their design process.

When you want to do stuff quickly in the game, you do not want features getting in your way that you might not use. This is true for everyone, newbie, advanced, pro, veteran, even GMs.

The next instance that needs to suck it up at CCP and take the critique is the Quality Assurance department. Quality Assurance's job is to make sure that the quality is up to spec. Hence the name Quality Assurance. These guys, wherever they are, should have alerted CCP's designers and pushed the panic button wherever possible. Now, less than 20 days before launch, it's way too late to get this on track for a proper launch. They failed, hard.

Quote:
Much like with movies there are only a couple of months in which you can release MMO expansions... if CCP doesn't get it out in June, they'll have to delay it until fall. No point releasing an expansion when all the potential new subscribers are hanging out on the beach...

You have to give them time to notice the game and get hooked up on it before they go on holidays...

All fine and well... but this brings us to the next point:

If this was just some run of the mill optional content like P.I. for example, nobody would break a sweat. The potential damage caused by a flawed implementation of CQ, however, far outweighs anything CCP has done so far.
As it turns out there are many clients who can't run CQ at all, or who find that it puts too much of a strain on their rig (see OP). CCP knows this, otherwise they wouldn't have put in in the option to effectively shut CQ down on this latest build.

Now, since CQ is not optional content but core content going by the way they are implementing it right now, CCP risk loosing a huge chunk of their playerbase if it isn't implemented properly. Everyone who might be running on an older rigs, multiboxers, etc might leave the game. And although that might not be many players, the damage to CCP's reputation would be far worse.

Incarna will be a core feature of the game. Slacking or "live beta testing" is not an option here. Trying to catch a summer release should not be a concern when you're talking core design.

Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
Posted - 2011.06.06 10:02:00 - [87]
 

Edited by: Le Skunk on 06/06/2011 10:03:24
Originally by: Akita T

For rushed free expansions however... it makes none.



Rushed, yes

Free, no

All subscribers have been paying for this... monstrous carbuncle.... for years now

I SHOULD LIKE TO GRAB IT BETWEEN MY FINGERS AND PINCH DOWN HARD, SQUEEZING UNTIL IT EXPLODES, COVERING US ALL IN PUSS

SKUNK

Hannibal Ord
Minmatar
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2011.06.06 10:16:00 - [88]
 

I just don't get why it's such a simple thing for them to do to make the world of difference to the game. If they don't actually do it it will make me question really all the times I've supported CCP on these forums because I believed in the game and their ability to improve EVE.

It's made me question the designers.

That said, maybe this is all a clever ruse, so on 21st we will have the hanger etc. And we will all raise our glasses to CCP over it.

I'm still hoping.

Arec Bardwin
Posted - 2011.06.06 11:05:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Akita T

So, to recap, you can keep the CQ environment as the default enabled option, but:
* MANDATORY - separate the CQ from the non-CQ graphics detail settings into two completely separate groups which you can set differently
* MANDATORY - keep the ESC menu option to not load any environment at all
* STRONGLY PREFERRED - add some even lower graphics detail levels for CQ
* OPTIONAL - do not delete the current hangar environments AND make them an alternative (default disabled) via the ESC menu


These points are way too logical and reasonable for CCP to implement all of them. Perhaps one or two of them, if we are lucky.

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.06.06 11:15:00 - [90]
 

Conspiracy theory *queue X-Files music* -

I wonder if the release has anything to do with Nvidia subtly driving this forward to promote graphic cards?

"You can not run the latest expansion? Well we hooked up with Nvidia to bring you a special deal..."


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