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Reset Password
Posted - 2011.06.05 03:09:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Reset Password on 05/06/2011 17:49:09

Hi,

Was wondering when we'd be able to test out the new ship paint jobs etc.


MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.06.05 03:44:00 - [2]
 

Once all ships are done being remodeled/changed textures to the normalmaped HD pathing. Then we can paint the ships.

cerbus
Minor Annoyance...
Posted - 2011.06.05 17:22:00 - [3]
 


Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens
Posted - 2011.06.05 17:57:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Xindi Kraid on 05/06/2011 17:58:07
Originally by: cerbus
derp


I don't believe that screenshot for a second.

Repaints are gonna cost aurium. Pretty sure CCP said so.

edit: thou shall not quote images.

cerbus
Minor Annoyance...
Posted - 2011.06.05 18:39:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: cerbus on 05/06/2011 18:55:23
Edited by: cerbus on 05/06/2011 18:40:15
Originally by: Xindi Kraid
Edited by: Xindi Kraid on 05/06/2011 17:58:07
Originally by: cerbus
derp


I don't believe that screenshot for a second.

Repaints are gonna cost aurium. Pretty sure CCP said so.

edit: thou shall not quote images.


Somewhere in the process its going to cost aurum (most probably after the design, or turn into bpc whatever stage)
But they also said that you will be able to sell the ships off the market... :P

Paintshop -> design -> pay aurum -> create ship -> do stuff with ship -> sell on market

Seeing as the ships are going to actually be unique in the database it looks like the options may be preset or premade designs. What I can't figure out is how they're going to show them on the market, it will be CRAZYYYY... even with 5 design options with 5 colours to choose from each (just a random amount) thats a **** load of possible unique ships... What will they be called on the market? Will they each have a unique name, or will they be all called "??? custom issue" etc.

Having a new market tab accessable when you've selected a customisable t1 hull would probably be easiest for the end user when searching for prepainted hulls - with finer filter tools than the standard market, but I doubt CCP wants to make anything that costs too much in development time. It will also be interesting to see how they do the actual design part, will there be new items that act similar to rigs that effect the appearance, what parts will be modifiable?? Base and Secondary Colours, Engine Trail Type and Colour, Internal and External Lights.. etc. etc. doubtful that there will be many textures or patterns that will span multiple ship classes due to the workload and state of the current UV maps but we shall see.. It all looks exciting eh??

derp.





MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.06.06 03:56:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 06/06/2011 04:03:59
If it's true then that ship has been retextured.
EDIT: it's not true anyways lol. you can easily check sis and see it's not there.

Heres the deal, they aren't going to make you download over 10 skins for each ship mate. the new textures half the diffuse maps in half and add an ajustable decal layer *
edit, they are calling it a paint texture map. This layer includes information that be changed with simple numbers. A cell shader if you will.

Kinda like color in the dots. The maps are basically just white and black and go over the ship. It's like opening photoshop and using an adjustment layer to change the color of a photo of a brick wall from red to yellow. It keeps the texture of the bricks intact, but changes the colors around.

Without the new texture pathing. http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/devblog/2010/TexturePack_large.jpg
It's impossible to change the ships colors without having a new diffuse map for each ship.

cerbus
Minor Annoyance...
Posted - 2011.06.06 04:36:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: cerbus on 06/06/2011 04:40:22
Originally by: MotherMoon
Edited by: MotherMoon on 06/06/2011 04:03:59
If it's true then that ship has been retextured.
EDIT: it's not true anyways lol. you can easily check sis and see it's not there.

Heres the deal, they aren't going to make you download over 10 skins for each ship mate. the new textures half the diffuse maps in half and add an ajustable decal layer *
edit, they are calling it a paint texture map. This layer includes information that be changed with simple numbers. A cell shader if you will.

Kinda like color in the dots. The maps are basically just white and black and go over the ship. It's like opening photoshop and using an adjustment layer to change the color of a photo of a brick wall from red to yellow. It keeps the texture of the bricks intact, but changes the colors around.

Without the new texture pathing. http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/devblog/2010/TexturePack_large.jpg
It's impossible to change the ships colors without having a new diffuse map for each ship.



(edit) I'm not sure why you're explaining, we are not in disagreement :P

Everything you say already exists ingame and it is infact how they do the majority of ships already, I'm fully aware of how they work.
I didn't say anything about downloading new textures, althougth we will be getting new ones incrimently as they update the base models and subsequently their alternate counterparts. Base/ Secondary/ Internal Lights/ External Lights/ Exhaust are all controllable by numbers in the blue and red stuff files.


MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.06.06 04:52:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: cerbus
Edited by: cerbus on 06/06/2011 04:40:22
Originally by: MotherMoon
Edited by: MotherMoon on 06/06/2011 04:03:59
If it's true then that ship has been retextured.
EDIT: it's not true anyways lol. you can easily check sis and see it's not there.

Heres the deal, they aren't going to make you download over 10 skins for each ship mate. the new textures half the diffuse maps in half and add an ajustable decal layer *
edit, they are calling it a paint texture map. This layer includes information that be changed with simple numbers. A cell shader if you will.

Kinda like color in the dots. The maps are basically just white and black and go over the ship. It's like opening photoshop and using an adjustment layer to change the color of a photo of a brick wall from red to yellow. It keeps the texture of the bricks intact, but changes the colors around.

Without the new texture pathing. http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/devblog/2010/TexturePack_large.jpg
It's impossible to change the ships colors without having a new diffuse map for each ship.



(edit) I'm not sure why you're explaining, we are not in disagreement :P

Everything you say already exists ingame and it is infact how they do the majority of ships already, I'm fully aware of how they work.




no whats on the lef tis what we have in game other than about 3 ships. Whats on the right is what is proposed. It's what allows for ship decals and color change. Without the texture pathing on the right, there will be no custom ship colors.

Also I'm explaining it to you because you replied to my post where I said it won't be done until they finish HDing all the ship with derp?


right now only 3 ships+*4tech 3 ships* are using the new textures.

cerbus
Minor Annoyance...
Posted - 2011.06.06 05:52:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: cerbus
Edited by: cerbus on 06/06/2011 04:40:22
Originally by: MotherMoon
Edited by: MotherMoon on 06/06/2011 04:03:59
If it's true then that ship has been retextured.
EDIT: it's not true anyways lol. you can easily check sis and see it's not there.

Heres the deal, they aren't going to make you download over 10 skins for each ship mate. the new textures half the diffuse maps in half and add an ajustable decal layer *
edit, they are calling it a paint texture map. This layer includes information that be changed with simple numbers. A cell shader if you will.

Kinda like color in the dots. The maps are basically just white and black and go over the ship. It's like opening photoshop and using an adjustment layer to change the color of a photo of a brick wall from red to yellow. It keeps the texture of the bricks intact, but changes the colors around.

Without the new texture pathing. http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/devblog/2010/TexturePack_large.jpg
It's impossible to change the ships colors without having a new diffuse map for each ship.



(edit) I'm not sure why you're explaining, we are not in disagreement :P

Everything you say already exists ingame and it is infact how they do the majority of ships already, I'm fully aware of how they work.




no whats on the lef tis what we have in game other than about 3 ships. Whats on the right is what is proposed. It's what allows for ship decals and color change. Without the texture pathing on the right, there will be no custom ship colors.

Also I'm explaining it to you because you replied to my post where I said it won't be done until they finish HDing all the ship with derp?


right now only 3 ships+*4tech 3 ships* are using the new textures.


They can and do do this already.
They don't need the new texturing method for this to work.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.06.06 08:16:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: cerbus


They can and do do this already.
They don't need the new texturing method for this to work.



just read the dev blog, no they can't.

cerbus
Minor Annoyance...
Posted - 2011.06.06 10:18:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: cerbus


They can and do do this already.
They don't need the new texturing method for this to work.



just read the dev blog, no they can't.


I'm not quite sure what you are talking about now, but you can easily change the colours of existing textures for new ships based of an existing hull. This is how most of the alternate hulls are done in game already.

If we are talking about changing existing hulls primary, secondary and light colours this is already possible. Although not with an ingame function they can easily create new ships with different combinations of colours from their side. The same can be said for new textures, but not from the client side.

This is CCP, and seeing as they've said that when you change the colours you are effectively getting a new ship *and* that you'll be able to sell them on the market, it seems possible that they're making unique items in teh databas for every combination.

back to work...

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.06.06 10:32:00 - [12]
 

if you rip the current eve clinet I think you'll find they have a seperate texture for each tech 2 and pirate faction. No I'm more than sure I rip it all the time. :3

http://www.flickr.com/photos/61951140@N03/5639640763/in/photostream

and here is the ccp dev blog
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=732

they even advertise the fact that they can change colors now with the new texture types without separate diffuse maps.
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/devblog/2010/Scorpion_2010_02.jpg

They can add decals without making a new diffuse map, things like strips and such by just making a decal map in the paint layer. They can change the color of the diffuse map without generate a new image texture file *diffuse map*.

This means that they can reuse the diffuse map and the normal map for everyship.

It's an awesome appoach to the problem. and hopefully all of the ships will be done soon.

The punisher just got done, and the maller for the AT9 prize!

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.06.06 10:41:00 - [13]
 

Quote:
The way the NGS textures are packed would mean we would have to generate a new NGS and P texture of every factional variant. If we repack textures in the PGS way, we would only need to generate a new P texture for every factional variant, thus reducing client size, as we'll be reducing the number of textures needed. You'll notice that the different files and their sizes change, but in the end we end up with two 1024x1024 textures and one 512x512 texture, so the PGS system should be very similar in per-file size

cerbus
Minor Annoyance...
Posted - 2011.06.06 16:50:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: cerbus on 06/06/2011 16:52:10
Originally by: MotherMoon
if you rip the current eve clinet I think you'll find they have a seperate texture for each tech 2 and pirate faction. No I'm more than sure I rip it all the time. :3

http://www.flickr.com/photos/61951140@N03/5639640763/in/photostream

and here is the ccp dev blog
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=732

they even advertise the fact that they can change colors now with the new texture types without separate diffuse maps.
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/devblog/2010/Scorpion_2010_02.jpg

They can add decals without making a new diffuse map, things like strips and such by just making a decal map in the paint layer. They can change the color of the diffuse map without generate a new image texture file *diffuse map*.

This means that they can reuse the diffuse map and the normal map for everyship.

It's an awesome appoach to the problem. and hopefully all of the ships will be done soon.

The punisher just got done, and the maller for the AT9 prize!


yes , I also do this and have done for years now, and I'm aware of the new system. There is a communication break down as we're talking about the same topic but different concepts. I'm talking about them being able to take the easy route already, with the current models ingame (all of them) easily by replicating existing models and making new unique ids for some basic aspects (Base,Highlight,Lights etc). This doesn't include damage decals, logos or anything that need to be unique on the actual model (ie. no mirroring of texture co-ordinates.)

When I make t2 variants of t1 hulls most of the time all I do in 3dmax is change the colours to match those from the .blue / .red files. I don't make a new texture, I just use the base.

Everything you say is true, but I was hypothosing about them being able to make it work now. I've discussed this with some of the devs during a CSM visit and they agreed that this is possible. Who knows how long it will take to get all the new textures redone and packed for the new system, not to mention fixing any other uv problems etc.


Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.06.06 18:38:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 06/06/2011 18:39:30
Ok so you see how you overlayed a cool texture on the ship? that would be impossible with the current system without making another whole texture set.

"To make factional variants of assets we would like to change the "paint-job" in some instances, and not just change the colors in the shader settings(Which often leads to a "washed"-look that the art director isn't very fond of. "

cerbus
Minor Annoyance...
Posted - 2011.06.14 04:11:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon
Edited by: MotherMoon on 06/06/2011 18:39:30
Ok so you see how you overlayed a cool texture on the ship? that would be impossible with the current system without making another whole texture set.

"To make factional variants of assets we would like to change the "paint-job" in some instances, and not just change the colors in the shader settings(Which often leads to a "washed"-look that the art director isn't very fond of. "


:P And the first ship for Aurum is done just as I imagined. :P
I'd say they used the scorp as they already had this model made previously.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.06.14 05:04:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: cerbus
Originally by: MotherMoon
Edited by: MotherMoon on 06/06/2011 18:39:30
Ok so you see how you overlayed a cool texture on the ship? that would be impossible with the current system without making another whole texture set.

"To make factional variants of assets we would like to change the "paint-job" in some instances, and not just change the colors in the shader settings(Which often leads to a "washed"-look that the art director isn't very fond of. "


:P And the first ship for Aurum is done just as I imagined. :P
I'd say they used the scorp as they already had this model made previously.


Neutral

are you seriously that daft?

nvm, not worth the time to rewrite everything I wrote.

cerbus
Minor Annoyance...
Posted - 2011.06.14 05:39:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: cerbus on 14/06/2011 05:42:10

Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: cerbus
Originally by: MotherMoon
Edited by: MotherMoon on 06/06/2011 18:39:30
Ok so you see how you overlayed a cool texture on the ship? that would be impossible with the current system without making another whole texture set.

"To make factional variants of assets we would like to change the "paint-job" in some instances, and not just change the colors in the shader settings(Which often leads to a "washed"-look that the art director isn't very fond of. "


:P And the first ship for Aurum is done just as I imagined. :P
I'd say they used the scorp as they already had this model made previously.


Neutral

are you seriously that daft?

nvm, not worth the time to rewrite everything I wrote.


:P Sorry I couldn't help myself, it was too easy to tease you

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.06.14 05:49:00 - [19]
 

we'd make a great sitcom : )



also since I really do feel the need to say it. The fact that the scorpion in the only ship to get paintjobs, and the fact it's the only ship that already uses the new texture format is not a coincidence :P

cerbus
Minor Annoyance...
Posted - 2011.06.14 05:56:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon
we'd make a great sitcom : )



also since I really do feel the need to say it. The fact that the scorpion in the only ship to get paintjobs, and the fact it's the only ship that already uses the new texture format is not a coincidence :P


hahahah, MotherMoon read the evemail I sent you.

The only new tech necessary for the first iteration of Aurum for Ship is the purchasing code.
The new ship is a new database item that is exactly the same as the Scorpion except for its ID, Name, and a different Diffuse and Light Alpha channel. Its just like adding a new ship to the game because it is just a new ship, they've been able to do this since the game started :P






MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.06.14 06:43:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/06/2011 07:59:54
Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/06/2011 07:59:02
Originally by: cerbus
Originally by: MotherMoon
we'd make a great sitcom : )



also since I really do feel the need to say it. The fact that the scorpion in the only ship to get paintjobs, and the fact it's the only ship that already uses the new texture format is not a coincidence :P


hahahah, MotherMoon read the evemail I sent you.

The only new tech necessary for the first iteration of Aurum for Ship is the purchasing code.
The new ship is a new database item that is exactly the same as the Scorpion except for its ID, Name, and a different Diffuse and Light Alpha channel. Its just like adding a new ship to the game because it is just a new ship, they've been able to do this since the game started :P








dude, it's not a new diffuse map. They explain it all, word or word, in the dev blog.

Whatever you ignored every link I posted.
The second big benefit of the triple-shaders is that we can more easily create factional variants of assets. Now the problem with the NGS system is that it doesn't play as well as we would like with the triple-shaders with regards to number of packed texture files. With the addition of the sub-mask, we have run out of channels to pack it into (as current double and single shaders only use 2 packed textures - a Diffuse, and a NGS texture), thus a new _P (paint) texture map was created to store the extra data. To make factional variants of assets we would like to change the "paint-job" in some instances, and not just change the colors in the shader settings(Which often leads to a "washed"-look that the art director isn't very fond of. The way the NGS textures are packed would mean we would have to generate a new NGS and P texture of every factional variant. If we repack textures in the PGS way, we would only need to generate a new P texture for every factional variant, thus reducing client size, as we'll be reducing the number of textures needed.


you act like this is the 1st pait job they have made for the scorpion. When in fact it's only one of 15-20 of them already made.

cerbus
Minor Annoyance...
Posted - 2011.06.14 10:28:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: cerbus on 14/06/2011 12:26:50
Originally by: MotherMoon
stuff


I read all of it :P

The new system is the best way to do it yes and I've not disagreed with you on this, but they don't have to do it that way as you can see from the other various examples already ingame although they will use more space.

If they wanted to add say 3 alternate Arbitrators with different colours they could do so in a day without using the new PGS texturing style. They could add a bazzillion different colour combinations of the same ships without noticably increasing the client size while changing the actual masks for creating a completely different look would definatley not be worthwhile using the current NGS texturing.

I would be EXTREMELY suprised if they make 15 DISTINCT TEXTURED MT PURCHASABLE options for every ship, and if they do it will not be this year thats for sure. It would be much more cost effective to create the pallette changes from a few base changes to the textures quickly and then add the fully different looking ships when they've remodelled and upgraded to PGS, Such as can be seen currently from the Arbitrator example before, the Arbitraitor House Ardishapur (eve database item 2164), Arbitraitor House Kor-Azor (database item 2168) and Arbitraitor House Tash-Murkon (database item 2166) which have been left over from previous game designs.

I'd imagine it could go like this:
-start with premade colour palettes designs and limited fully unique designs on ships that already have been upgraded
-update and retexture ships from NGS to PGS texturing
-allow for corp logos on the ships that utalise the PGS system
-Then allow for custom patterns and decals (although i'd say this is unlikely due to the obvious problems it would cause)

If they DO just rely on ships that have been upgraded to PGS they're going to miss out of lots of possible MT income although using the current way would add more Design time later.

The differences from using new PGS technology over the old NGS is the savings on database size, reusability of the same texture packs , retention of texture and colour fidelity and model defintion. They can do the same thing by using their old methods (obviously) as they already do in game it just wont look as nice :P


Sarmatiko
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:44:00 - [23]
 

I agree with cerbus.
You don't need new texture format to sell new ships because there is already alot of them in client in the old format. CCP just need to add only new database record to put one of non-flyable ships (for example npc pirate ships) to the market.

Decals is the other thing and obviously putting dozens of new pre-customizable ships is more realistic in short term than total re-modeling and re-texturing of all ships.


 

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