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mkint
Posted - 2011.06.07 23:14:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Originally by: Cearain
But really Iím wondering how long 82% of the eve developers will be ignoring the spaceship part of the game in favor of incarna


It's a real challenge communicating this concept to people with words, when just seeing Incarna in action will tell the story so much better, so consider this post just another small attempt to push that particular rock up the hill (again) before it rolls back down after the next "Incarna doesn't help Flying in space" post.

The notion that Incarna development doesn't benefit EVE's "Flying in Space" elements. It's a pretty common notion. Fairly widespread. Quite commonly accepted. However, it's only sometimes true guys. As an example of when it's true: developing art assets for clothes - that doesn't improve the "flying in space" part of EVE in any obvious or substantive way. Hell, it could in some way in the future, but lets for the sake of argument say right now that it doesn't, since it doesn't right now.

However, clothes is not all there is to Incarna! Very Happy

Consider this example I posted about elsewhere a few days ago:

Flying-in-Space-Era:
You find out about pirate epic arcs by reading a years-old Dev Blog outside of the game client (putting aside the question: how would you even know to read it in the first place?!). If you don't know what pirate epic arcs are, you're helping prove my point too. Smile

Now fast forward to the...

Incarna Era:
You stand in front of your TV screen in your captain's quarters and see an ad from the Angel Cartel, inviting you to come out to 0.0 and run some frigate-based, PvP-esque, epic arc missions. Flying in space content is pushed to you via Incarna.

It goes even further, though, in fact. In these situations, Incarna is deeply subservient to "Flying in Space" - effectively acting as nothing more than an improved, centralized delivery mechanism for FiS content.

So, given that, you can see how this sword cuts both ways, I hope. What I dearly wish I could see more of, is people pointing that out. We are achieving some significant victories for "flying in space" content by working on Incarna. Yes, it seems counter intuitive to say so, but just look at the above example. Does anyone consider it (and it's just one of many, with more to come) and feel differently? Why? I'm not saying it's wrong to, but it seems like some people are not fully aware of what Incarna is actually doing to benefit FiS content.

Anyways, I'm sure the TQ release will help show that much more effectively than posts like this telling it.

Much ♥

Ah, so incarna's gonna be abandoned 6 months after release like every new feature. Got it.

Taking bets now on the next half-finished feature after incarna.

Myra2007
Millstone Industries
Posted - 2011.06.07 23:29:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Flying in space content is pushed to you via Incarna.



I think it's a matter of perspective. I have read every single devblog and probably most devposts in the last 5 or 6 years. What is that screen going to tell me that I don't know? Pretty much all my ingame friends are 100% in the same situation too.

I acknowledge the potential this has for future players and the way it may change the eve learning experience. In that regard I welcome the ongoing effort towards incarna.

But for me as a longterm player it's a gimmick that I will never use. Much like everything I've seen from the CQ to date. You mention other examples and I'm sure there is more interesting stuff in the pipe than CQ. Until then that's just future prospects though.

I believe what many people feel right now is that it has been a while since the last "epic" eve spaceships expansion (apocrypha) and that it's time for a new one. In reality though you can't push two huge expansions at the same time so for now major resources have to be concentrated on incarna. (That's what I got from the whole 18 months thing anyway.)

It's probably a given that after CQ launch in june another "expansion era" will expand on that and bring multiplayer incarna and more meaningful gameplay. Some die hard incarna opponents aside most people accept that and are actively anticipating what this may do for eve.

However the question remains: given the limits on resources when will a bigger part of them be tasked with eve spaceship features again? I don't know if that question can even be answered at this point. I'm just trying to point out that - with all respect for the potential synergies between incarna and "regular eve" - many people live with the alarming feeling that they may have to wait another 12-24 months before major changes in other areas are even conceivable. And that's something a "hey look incarna can also do nice things for you" isn't going to put aside much less with things like ship balance, sov system, fw, s&i and countless other issues in need of help.

To me and the people I play with the single best thing in the last year or so have been gridlock/bff. That's more than enough to sustain interest but a perspective would be great. A window we could look through and say "just two more years and then maybe this thing that has bugged me for years will be gone". A little bit of hope! Razz

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.06.07 23:36:00 - [33]
 

On the topic of the best things being team BFF's work...
when are you going to un-nerf ship fittings???
That was a fantastic feature, that you casually destroyed for no rhyme nor reason.

Khamal Jolstien
Caldari
THORN Syndicate
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.06.07 23:38:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Originally by: Cearain
But really Iím wondering how long 82% of the eve developers will be ignoring the spaceship part of the game in favor of incarna


It's a real challenge communicating this concept to people with words, when just seeing Incarna in action will tell the story so much better, so consider this post just another small attempt to push that particular rock up the hill (again) before it rolls back down after the next "Incarna doesn't help Flying in space" post.

The notion that Incarna development doesn't benefit EVE's "Flying in Space" elements. It's a pretty common notion. Fairly widespread. Quite commonly accepted. However, it's only sometimes true guys. As an example of when it's true: developing art assets for clothes - that doesn't improve the "flying in space" part of EVE in any obvious or substantive way. Hell, it could in some way in the future, but lets for the sake of argument say right now that it doesn't, since it doesn't right now.

However, clothes is not all there is to Incarna! Very Happy

Consider this example I posted about elsewhere a few days ago:

Flying-in-Space-Era:
You find out about pirate epic arcs by reading a years-old Dev Blog outside of the game client (putting aside the question: how would you even know to read it in the first place?!). If you don't know what pirate epic arcs are, you're helping prove my point too. Smile

Now fast forward to the...

Incarna Era:
You stand in front of your TV screen in your captain's quarters and see an ad from the Angel Cartel, inviting you to come out to 0.0 and run some frigate-based, PvP-esque, epic arc missions. Flying in space content is pushed to you via Incarna.

It goes even further, though, in fact. In these situations, Incarna is deeply subservient to "Flying in Space" - effectively acting as nothing more than an improved, centralized delivery mechanism for FiS content.

So, given that, you can see how this sword cuts both ways, I hope. What I dearly wish I could see more of, is people pointing that out. We are achieving some significant victories for "flying in space" content by working on Incarna. Yes, it seems counter intuitive to say so, but just look at the above example. Does anyone consider it (and it's just one of many, with more to come) and feel differently? Why? I'm not saying it's wrong to, but it seems like some people are not fully aware of what Incarna is actually doing to benefit FiS content.

Anyways, I'm sure the TQ release will help show that much more effectively than posts like this telling it.

Much ♥


A simple "no" would have worked.

Crystalyne
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.06.07 23:42:00 - [35]
 

I find it amazing how game players want to micro manage the allocation of CCPs resources against a code base they have no understanding of. Let CCP figure out when and where they allocate resources. They have the best understanding of how to deliver their product. Not any of us.

Myra2007
Millstone Industries
Posted - 2011.06.07 23:45:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Crystalyne
I find it amazing how game players want to micro manage the allocation of CCPs resources against a code base they have no understanding of. Let CCP figure out when and where they allocate resources. They have the best understanding of how to deliver their product. Not any of us.


I don't think people are asking to allocate the resources for ccp. Rather they would like to know the plans for allocation of resources in the future. That seems pretty reasonable to me. To each his own though.

Zverofaust
Gallente
Ascetic Virtues
Posted - 2011.06.08 00:02:00 - [37]
 

That's something I'd really like to see; instead of impersonal paragraphs about missions you'd actually go and find the agents in the station, talk to them and get the mission offer similar to bipedal-based games.

People will complain. They always do. 2 years ago the complaint was that WiS was a false promise; now they complain that it's actually coming. I think having more interaction, walking around, interacting with more than an NPCs portait, would be better all around. Of course if this is "too much", you could make this a necessity for only some agents -- agents who for example may not want to communicate over potentially unsecure lines and demand a face-to-face conversation with you. Whatever. It would be cool.

Roq Godslayer
Posted - 2011.06.08 00:03:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Myra2007
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Flying in space content is pushed to you via Incarna.



I think it's a matter of perspective. I have read every single devblog and probably most devposts in the last 5 or 6 years. What is that screen going to tell me that I don't know? Pretty much all my ingame friends are 100% in the same situation too.

I acknowledge the potential this has for future players and the way it may change the eve learning experience. In that regard I welcome the ongoing effort towards incarna.

But for me as a longterm player it's a gimmick that I will never use. Much like everything I've seen from the CQ to date. You mention other examples and I'm sure there is more interesting stuff in the pipe than CQ. Until then that's just future prospects though.

I believe what many people feel right now is that it has been a while since the last "epic" eve spaceships expansion (apocrypha) and that it's time for a new one. In reality though you can't push two huge expansions at the same time so for now major resources have to be concentrated on incarna. (That's what I got from the whole 18 months thing anyway.)

It's probably a given that after CQ launch in june another "expansion era" will expand on that and bring multiplayer incarna and more meaningful gameplay. Some die hard incarna opponents aside most people accept that and are actively anticipating what this may do for eve.

However the question remains: given the limits on resources when will a bigger part of them be tasked with eve spaceship features again? I don't know if that question can even be answered at this point. I'm just trying to point out that - with all respect for the potential synergies between incarna and "regular eve" - many people live with the alarming feeling that they may have to wait another 12-24 months before major changes in other areas are even conceivable. And that's something a "hey look incarna can also do nice things for you" isn't going to put aside much less with things like ship balance, sov system, fw, s&i and countless other issues in need of help.

To me and the people I play with the single best thing in the last year or so have been gridlock/bff. That's more than enough to sustain interest but a perspective would be great. A window we could look through and say "just two more years and then maybe this thing that has bugged me for years will be gone". A little bit of hope! Razz



^^^
This

Vandrion
Gallente
The Collective
B O R G
Posted - 2011.06.08 00:24:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Originally by: Cearain
But really Iím wondering how long 82% of the eve developers will be ignoring the spaceship part of the game in favor of incarna


It's a real challenge communicating this concept to people with words, when just seeing Incarna in action will tell the story so much better, so consider this post just another small attempt to push that particular rock up the hill (again) before it rolls back down after the next "Incarna doesn't help Flying in space" post.

The notion that Incarna development doesn't benefit EVE's "Flying in Space" elements. It's a pretty common notion. Fairly widespread. Quite commonly accepted. However, it's only sometimes true guys. As an example of when it's true: developing art assets for clothes - that doesn't improve the "flying in space" part of EVE in any obvious or substantive way. Hell, it could in some way in the future, but lets for the sake of argument say right now that it doesn't, since it doesn't right now.

However, clothes is not all there is to Incarna! Very Happy

Consider this example I posted about elsewhere a few days ago:

Flying-in-Space-Era:
You find out about pirate epic arcs by reading a years-old Dev Blog outside of the game client (putting aside the question: how would you even know to read it in the first place?!). If you don't know what pirate epic arcs are, you're helping prove my point too. Smile

Now fast forward to the...

Incarna Era:
You stand in front of your TV screen in your captain's quarters and see an ad from the Angel Cartel, inviting you to come out to 0.0 and run some frigate-based, PvP-esque, epic arc missions. Flying in space content is pushed to you via Incarna.

It goes even further, though, in fact. In these situations, Incarna is deeply subservient to "Flying in Space" - effectively acting as nothing more than an improved, centralized delivery mechanism for FiS content.

So, given that, you can see how this sword cuts both ways, I hope. What I dearly wish I could see more of, is people pointing that out. We are achieving some significant victories for "flying in space" content by working on Incarna. Yes, it seems counter intuitive to say so, but just look at the above example. Does anyone consider it (and it's just one of many, with more to come) and feel differently? Why? I'm not saying it's wrong to, but it seems like some people are not fully aware of what Incarna is actually doing to benefit FiS content.

Anyways, I'm sure the TQ release will help show that much more effectively than posts like this telling it.

Much ♥



If I wanted to sit on a couch and watch TV I would go to the other room in my house.......

I will atleast give you credit for posting something that is somewhat useful in a thread.

How about you mention this next time you are at the water cooler with the other Devs---How about some replies in the threads that the DEV team has requested feedback in?????????????????? Please stop ignoring the community by not addressing legitimate concerns....

mkint
Posted - 2011.06.08 00:36:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Zverofaust
That's something I'd really like to see; instead of impersonal paragraphs about missions you'd actually go and find the agents in the station, talk to them and get the mission offer similar to bipedal-based games.


gawd I hope not. walking speed in Chamber of Despair is so freakin' slow we could establish our own inter-galactic civilization in the time it takes to get a mission in a video game.
Quote:


People will complain. They always do. 2 years ago the complaint was that WiS was a false promise; now they complain that it's actually coming. I think having more interaction, walking around, interacting with more than an NPCs portait, would be better all around. Of course if this is "too much", you could make this a necessity for only some agents -- agents who for example may not want to communicate over potentially unsecure lines and demand a face-to-face conversation with you. Whatever. It would be cool.

People weren't complaining 2 years ago... people were joking that it was vaporware, big laugh. Then 1 year ago people started looking at CCPs track record and began dreading how bad it'd suck. Now we have a fairly certain idea of how badly it will suck now that CCP is starting to expose their lies.

still taking bets on what they are going to half-start and then abandon after half-finished incarna is abandoned. Gawd aren't accountants awesome decision makers in the video game industry.

Montevius Williams
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.08 01:02:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Soden Rah
will alienate a large portion of your player-base.


I dont feel alienated...define "large" portion of playerbase? How do you know this...just curious. If you're going by forum posts, what % of EVE players post on the forums? Out of that %. how many would feel this alienation that you speak of? What data analysis was done to come to this conclusion?

Thanks

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.06.08 01:21:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Montevius Williams
Originally by: Soden Rah
will alienate a large portion of your player-base.


I dont feel alienated...define "large" portion of playerbase? How do you know this...just curious. If you're going by forum posts, what % of EVE players post on the forums? Out of that %. how many would feel this alienation that you speak of? What data analysis was done to come to this conclusion?

Thanks


I obviously have no hard numbers.
However I am going on the assumptions that;

Those who hate the very idea of incarna, will probably hate losing the old hanger and being forced to load CQ (or blank screen)...

Those that like to role-play, or like there immersion, will probably hate the fact that we now decant from our pods every damn time we undock, and that our pods apparently dump us out onto a gantry in full view of the rest of the hanger...

Those with lower end computers/many clients will probably hate the fact that CQ is the most intensive part of the game, barring big fleet battles, just to be sitting on your own in station....

Coupled with the poor UI design/implementation meaning that not only does the CQ have no new functionality, it can't properly perform the functions we already have....

I feel that that is a significant portion of the userbase, who will be disappointed, or let down, or ****ed off, by the current implementation of CQ.


Also this appears to me to have had a larger negative to positive feedback than most new features on the forums, and its particularly noteworthy that a significant number of those criticising CQ are people who state they do want incarna, myself included.

Now of course I could be wrong, I could be overestimating the amount of negative reaction to this, and I might have added more qualifiers in the lines of 'I believe' or 'it will probably' or such...
But my posts are generally long enough as it is...
So lets take them as read shall we...

Anyhow, whether well received or not, the central design flaw of the current implementation will still exist.

Nullity
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.08 01:25:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Montevius Williams
Originally by: Soden Rah
will alienate a large portion of your player-base.


I dont feel alienated...define "large" portion of playerbase? How do you know this...just curious. If you're going by forum posts, what % of EVE players post on the forums? Out of that %. how many would feel this alienation that you speak of? What data analysis was done to come to this conclusion?

Thanks

Obviously, the forums don't represent the complete interests of all EVE players. However, the forums exist for a reason. That is to allow customers to give feedback to CCP. When the vast majority of people on the forums are upset-even if that doesn't necessarily represent the vast majority of EVE players-you have a problem.

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.06.08 01:33:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Nullity
Originally by: Montevius Williams
Originally by: Soden Rah
will alienate a large portion of your player-base.


I dont feel alienated...define "large" portion of playerbase? How do you know this...just curious. If you're going by forum posts, what % of EVE players post on the forums? Out of that %. how many would feel this alienation that you speak of? What data analysis was done to come to this conclusion?

Thanks

Obviously, the forums don't represent the complete interests of all EVE players. However, the forums exist for a reason. That is to allow customers to give feedback to CCP. When the vast majority of people on the forums are upset-even if that doesn't necessarily represent the vast majority of EVE players-you have a problem.


Or to a certain extent, on the principle that those who don't show up don't get to make decisions, it's upset a significant number of the most vocal, and thus perhaps the most important players....

I realise this may not translate as well from democratic voting to game forum pressure...

But still the view of those who care to actually take an interest might be paid more attention too than the view of those who don't say anything at all.

Montevius Williams
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.08 01:38:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Nullity
Originally by: Montevius Williams
Originally by: Soden Rah
will alienate a large portion of your player-base.


I dont feel alienated...define "large" portion of playerbase? How do you know this...just curious. If you're going by forum posts, what % of EVE players post on the forums? Out of that %. how many would feel this alienation that you speak of? What data analysis was done to come to this conclusion?

Thanks

Obviously, the forums don't represent the complete interests of all EVE players. However, the forums exist for a reason. That is to allow customers to give feedback to CCP. When the vast majority of people on the forums are upset-even if that doesn't necessarily represent the vast majority of EVE players-you have a problem.


Once again, what does this mean? Vast majority...these are highly speculative statements. If only 5% of players post on the forums and only 3% post any kind of disdain for Incarna (or any content), that really doesnt tell you anything. Also, people are much more likely to complain and be vocal when they dont like something than they will if they do...it's human nature.

I totally respect your opinions here, I'd just like to see some substantative evidence that the vast majority of EVE Forum posters (Let alone Players) dont like/want Incarna.

The only way you could get any real data is if CCP was to put a vote now prompt on its log in screen (which I highly doubt they would do).

Voith
Posted - 2011.06.08 01:41:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Originally by: Cearain
But really Iím wondering how long 82% of the eve developers will be ignoring the spaceship part of the game in favor of incarna


It's a real challenge communicating this concept to people with words, when just seeing Incarna in action will tell the story so much better, so consider this post just another small attempt to push that particular rock up the hill (again) before it rolls back down after the next "Incarna doesn't help Flying in space" post.

The notion that Incarna development doesn't benefit EVE's "Flying in Space" elements. It's a pretty common notion. Fairly widespread. Quite commonly accepted. However, it's only sometimes true guys. As an example of when it's true: developing art assets for clothes - that doesn't improve the "flying in space" part of EVE in any obvious or substantive way. Hell, it could in some way in the future, but lets for the sake of argument say right now that it doesn't, since it doesn't right now.

However, clothes is not all there is to Incarna! Very Happy

Consider this example I posted about elsewhere a few days ago:

Flying-in-Space-Era:
You find out about pirate epic arcs by reading a years-old Dev Blog outside of the game client (putting aside the question: how would you even know to read it in the first place?!). If you don't know what pirate epic arcs are, you're helping prove my point too. Smile

Now fast forward to the...

Incarna Era:
You stand in front of your TV screen in your captain's quarters and see an ad from the Angel Cartel, inviting you to come out to 0.0 and run some frigate-based, PvP-esque, epic arc missions. Flying in space content is pushed to you via Incarna.

It goes even further, though, in fact. In these situations, Incarna is deeply subservient to "Flying in Space" - effectively acting as nothing more than an improved, centralized delivery mechanism for FiS content.

So, given that, you can see how this sword cuts both ways, I hope. What I dearly wish I could see more of, is people pointing that out. We are achieving some significant victories for "flying in space" content by working on Incarna. Yes, it seems counter intuitive to say so, but just look at the above example. Does anyone consider it (and it's just one of many, with more to come) and feel differently? Why? I'm not saying it's wrong to, but it seems like some people are not fully aware of what Incarna is actually doing to benefit FiS content.

Anyways, I'm sure the TQ release will help show that much more effectively than posts like this telling it.

Much ♥

That sounds really cool.

But how does that solve super caps obsoleting the other 500 hulls in 0.0, lowsec being useless and whatever the big complaint about empire is these days?


*That* is the problem people have. Eve isn't lacking cool features, it is lacking "cool features" that actually work well.

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.06.08 01:47:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Montevius Williams

Once again, what does this mean? Vast majority...these are highly speculative statements. If only 5% of players post on the forums and only 3% post any kind of disdain for Incarna (or any content), that really doesnt tell you anything. Also, people are much more likely to complain and be vocal when they dont like something than they will if they do...it's human nature.

I totally respect your opinions here, I'd just like to see some substantative evidence that the vast majority of EVE Forum posters (Let alone Players) dont like/want Incarna.

The only way you could get any real data is if CCP was to put a vote now prompt on its log in screen (which I highly doubt they would do).



I think more to the point is its an irrelevancy... people use expression like that all the time, making subjective and often biased estimates of their own support... in a forum such as this asking everyone to actually go and get numbers to prove it is pointless... Its not practically possible and noone is going to do it.

Form your own opinion of Incarna/CQ by testing it, and look at the reasoned arguments for and against different features and aspects and then discuss...

Also assuming at least 100k actual people play eve, 5% is 5000 people, which is easily large enough to statistically sample from...
It is in this instance a self selected 5000 people, but again I say its the self selected people who care.

Montevius Williams
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.08 02:00:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Soden Rah
Originally by: Montevius Williams

Once again, what does this mean? Vast majority...these are highly speculative statements. If only 5% of players post on the forums and only 3% post any kind of disdain for Incarna (or any content), that really doesnt tell you anything. Also, people are much more likely to complain and be vocal when they dont like something than they will if they do...it's human nature.

I totally respect your opinions here, I'd just like to see some substantative evidence that the vast majority of EVE Forum posters (Let alone Players) dont like/want Incarna.

The only way you could get any real data is if CCP was to put a vote now prompt on its log in screen (which I highly doubt they would do).



I think more to the point is its an irrelevancy... people use expression like that all the time, making subjective and often biased estimates of their own support... in a forum such as this asking everyone to actually go and get numbers to prove it is pointless... Its not practically possible and noone is going to do it.

Form your own opinion of Incarna/CQ by testing it, and look at the reasoned arguments for and against different features and aspects and then discuss...

Also assuming at least 100k actual people play eve, 5% is 5000 people, which is easily large enough to statistically sample from...
It is in this instance a self selected 5000 people, but again I say its the self selected people who care.


Well, I've tested Incarna on Sisi and I havent had any issues that others seem to have (framerate, crashes etc.). I also think it is a step in the right direction. I'm not going to lie and say that I dont want Incarna...I do. Sure its very barebones right now AND I can understand the arguments of why people DONT want it. I get it. But I think that, "future state", this is the way to go and this is the foundation for that future state that CCP is looking to go with EVE. They have a vision and they are following it. I have no problem with that.

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.06.08 02:15:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Montevius Williams

Well, I've tested Incarna on Sisi and I havent had any issues that others seem to have (framerate, crashes etc.). I also think it is a step in the right direction. I'm not going to lie and say that I dont want Incarna...I do. Sure its very barebones right now AND I can understand the arguments of why people DONT want it. I get it. But I think that, "future state", this is the way to go and this is the foundation for that future state that CCP is looking to go with EVE. They have a vision and they are following it. I have no problem with that.


Ah, but how about the non-performance issues that others who also want Incarna have with it?

For example it not being an option after docking but instead a replacement for the hanger?
or the pod just being out in the open like that
or the totally useless UI....

Not all of the issues are raised by those who don't want incarna or have performance/stability issues with it.
In fact the most vocal posters I have seen all would like Incarna...
just not the way ccp are currently doing it.

So I have a question... Have a look around and see the suggestions for improvements we have been making, and think about whether those suggestions would change CQ/Incarna in a way you would find detrimental, And then come back and tell us whether you would have a problem or not with things like making CQ an option after docking, or having the pod in its own room like the trailer... ect...

It's not just a choice between those that want Incarna and those that don't. There is also a large group of, we want Incarna but your (ccp) screwing it up, here's how you could do it better.

Plus talking about CCP's 'vision'...

In every other iteration before this one Incarna was optional after docking...
Then suddenly between the last presentation and them actually releasing a test build they totally changed their minds...

If they can change their minds once they can do it again...

We the players can also stop playing and paying if they change it too much to our dislike, so simply saying it's ccp's vision, live with it...
They can't keep the same vision for ten minutes strait.

Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2011.06.08 02:28:00 - [50]
 

Just want to know when FW is getting some love and what it will be

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1489084

(Manifest has promised us something in a few different threads - but that requires CCP Soundwave to be involved it seems... A bit more detail would be nice - even if it was
"BFF will be fixing some of the issues, and FW will have some major reiteration done within XXX months" or something...

Zleon Leigh
Posted - 2011.06.08 02:36:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Crystalyne
I find it amazing how game players want to micro manage the allocation of CCPs resources against a code base they have no understanding of. Let CCP figure out when and where they allocate resources. They have the best understanding of how to deliver their product. Not any of us.


If you really think that is true after experiencing 1.6x....


Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2011.06.08 02:44:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 08/06/2011 02:44:36
Quote:
Are they going to announce the hiring of a fashion expert like the market expert?


Actually, I believe they have already filled that position. Not joking. Embarassed

One point to consider, if Incarna brings in more people (which it likely will) that means more revenue. More revenue means more devs, and more devs means more work on the parts of the game that you care most deeply about.

It's the circle of virtual life.

Doc Fury
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.08 02:58:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 08/06/2011 02:44:36
Quote:
Are they going to announce the hiring of a fashion expert like the market expert?


Actually, I believe they have already filled that position. Not joking. Embarassed

One point to consider, if Incarna brings in more people (which it likely will) that means more revenue. More revenue means more devs, and more devs means more work on the parts of the game that you care most deeply about.

It's the circle of virtual life.



Assuming they don't spend it all on hookers, blow, and lutefisk, or building a vampire MMO, or a console game. After that, there may just be some cash left over to repurpose and/or hire some Devs for EVE.


Namak Bulu
Gallente
Villore Regional Industries
Posted - 2011.06.08 03:33:00 - [54]
 

I'm reaching here I think... but hell i'm going to say it...

I suppose they could have sprung the entire expansion of Planetary Interaction, W-Space/Tech 3, CQs/Aurms, and everything else people in recent history have claimed they've abandoned at one time on the EVE populous and watch people scramble to understand how to understand and manage every new item and watch the EVE economy come to a screeching halt and disrupting the game for everyone severely. Instead of seeding EVE slowly with this content, giving people understanding of these new areas, seeding the market with these items... Easing the integration of Dust 514 into the mold...

I wonder how Null-Sec would take that scenario...

But maybe i'm tumbling down the rabbit hole thinking that...

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.08 03:56:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: CCP Dropbear
It's a real challenge communicating this concept to people with words, when just seeing Incarna in action will tell the story so much better, so consider this post just another small attempt to push that particular rock up the hill (again) before it rolls back down after the next "Incarna doesn't help Flying in space" post.


I wanted to grab this.

I've toyed with Incarna on Sisi and Duality. Either you're playing a super secret build that only extreme devs get to play with that gives you access to some profound new level of gamplay which as of yet is unseen, or you're talking out of your ass. Incarna is a very pretty but needlessly obtuse interface which doubles as a GPU heater. Content delivery? That delivery could come to the player through other far more simple interfaces. A good interface provides the user with the information they need and then gets the hell out of the way. Incarna has a horrendous interface by design. A very pretty horrendous interface. The best that can be said about it is that you don't have to use it. Consider that for a second.

Until the element of actually shooting each other in a station is introduced, there will be absolutely no point to Incarna, because there will be absolutely nothing that CCP could possibly implement that couldn't be done quicker and easier with the existing interface. Incarna has been, is, and will continue to be a money sink until that day comes. Assuming that it does.

And maybe I'm just a bitter vet. But you know what? I'm pretty sure that when I signed up for Eve Online, it was because I wanted to fly a god damned mother ****ing spaceship.

Constantinus Maximus
Paxian Expeditionary Force
Posted - 2011.06.08 04:14:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Patient 2428190
Originally by: Darth Emu Ohmiras
I feel sad this whole thread has happened and nobody has mentioned Vampires

World of Darkness Online. Where the EVE team is now.


This man gets it.

I'd even go as far as saying the majority of the people left in EVE Online are just doing work for Carbon/Twilight MMO, with the possible exception of one or two development teams doing specific EVE tasks.


The truth.

Constantinus Maximus
Paxian Expeditionary Force
Posted - 2011.06.08 04:17:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: CCP Dropbear
It's a real challenge communicating this concept to people with words, when just seeing Incarna in action will tell the story


No.

Seeing Incarna fixes the bugs in FactionWar?

Seeing Incarna re-balances ships?

Seeing Incarna fixes 0.0?

I think not.

Constantinus Maximus
Paxian Expeditionary Force
Posted - 2011.06.08 04:25:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Crystalyne
I find it amazing how game players want to micro manage the allocation of CCPs resources against a code base they have no understanding of. Let CCP figure out when and where they allocate resources. They have the best understanding of how to deliver their product. Not any of us.


People are upset because a year or so back CCP killed their favourite game.

Montevius Williams
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.08 05:06:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Montevius Williams on 08/06/2011 05:46:20
Originally by: Soden Rah
Originally by: Montevius Williams

Well, I've tested Incarna on Sisi and I havent had any issues that others seem to have (framerate, crashes etc.). I also think it is a step in the right direction. I'm not going to lie and say that I dont want Incarna...I do. Sure its very barebones right now AND I can understand the arguments of why people DONT want it. I get it. But I think that, "future state", this is the way to go and this is the foundation for that future state that CCP is looking to go with EVE. They have a vision and they are following it. I have no problem with that.


Ah, but how about the non-performance issues that others who also want Incarna have with it?

For example it not being an option after docking but instead a replacement for the hanger?
or the pod just being out in the open like that
or the totally useless UI....

Not all of the issues are raised by those who don't want incarna or have performance/stability issues with it.
In fact the most vocal posters I have seen all would like Incarna...
just not the way ccp are currently doing it.

So I have a question... Have a look around and see the suggestions for improvements we have been making, and think about whether those suggestions would change CQ/Incarna in a way you would find detrimental, And then come back and tell us whether you would have a problem or not with things like making CQ an option after docking, or having the pod in its own room like the trailer... ect...

It's not just a choice between those that want Incarna and those that don't. There is also a large group of, we want Incarna but your (ccp) screwing it up, here's how you could do it better.

Plus talking about CCP's 'vision'...

In every other iteration before this one Incarna was optional after docking...
Then suddenly between the last presentation and them actually releasing a test build they totally changed their minds...

If they can change their minds once they can do it again...

We the players can also stop playing and paying if they change it too much to our dislike, so simply saying it's ccp's vision, live with it...
They can't keep the same vision for ten minutes strait.


Yes these are issues but:

As far as the docking issue, I understand that CCP promised to make it optional but maybe they changed their mind? Would I like to have the option in game? Absolutely. However, it's their IP and they have the right to change their mind. You (when I say you, I mean anyone) as a customer has a right to complain, leave or both. At the end of the day, they are going to do what ever they want and until people start jumping ship en masse, they will continue to do what they want with the game.

As far the POD being out in the open on the balcony, I think it is something that can easlity be changed as its mostly aesthetic - I really think people are making WAY to big a deal out of the POD, but that is just my opinion (and you know what they say about opinions)

As far the UI, right now, I would agree that it pretty superfluous on top of the already existing UI. Future state, maybe there will be two seperate UI's: One for Ships and One for Incarna...who knows..but it looks like they are going for a more 3d design with the UI. I think the UI thing is a touchy subject for all EVE players. Most would agree that it is outdated and in serious need of an overhaul, however the EVE UI is also one of the more (if not the most) complex UI of any MMO - it has to be done right and not just put together half hazardly - I think this will be an ongoing challenge for CCP and the UI on Sisi and eventually TQ will no doubt go though multiple iterations.

I've seen most of the suggestions and from what I have seen, the biggest complaint on these forums seem to be about making CQ optional - which I do think is a good idea from a gameplay and Roleplay perspective (Why do I need to get out of my POD if Im only docking for 30 seconds?)

Montevius Williams
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.08 05:17:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Soden Rah
Originally by: Montevius Williams

We the players can also stop playing and paying if they change it too much to our dislike, so simply saying it's ccp's vision, live with it...
They can't keep the same vision for ten minutes strait.



The thing is, CCP has been pretty consistent in the whole Incarna thing for as long as I have played EVE (Aug 2009). It's something they have talked about at Fanfest every year. Yes I know it's been a running joke because it took them so long to bring it out and it's been in "development" for so long, however, to state that they cant keep the same vision for 10 mins straight doesnt make any sense as this HAS been CCP's vision for as long as I can remember.

Maybe people didnt take it seriously becasue it always got pushed back (alot) and I can totally understand WHY people would not take it seriously and look at it as Vaporware, but they (CCP) has been consistent (In my opinion) in presenting, talking about and keeping it on everyone's mind that this (Ambulation, WiS, Incarna) is what they've wanted to do with EVE for a long time.


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