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Kazuma Ry
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.02 21:31:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Jason Galente

Slavery is not an 'old wound': it is still going on. There will be no peace between the Amarr and the Minmatar until the remaining Minmatar slaves are freed and reparations are paid. It is your own choice to cling onto your inhumane traditions for personal gain that prolongs this war. Do not delude yourself into believing otherwise.


Mr Galente,

If you think I choose to go down the road to help teach and enlighten others for personal gain, then you are sorely mistaken. If I wanted slaves for personal gain, then I would be in the employment of the Angel Cartel, or one of the other Pirate Factions.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.06.02 21:56:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Lyn Farel on 02/06/2011 21:57:30
Originally by: Domitianus Fury
Originally by: Lyn Farel

It is not.


You do not believe in enlightenment?

You do not believe it is the right of the Amarr to rule worlds, and for holders to rule their serfs?

You do not believe in the divine rule of the Empress?


Enlightement passes through various ways and interesting spiritual quests. So I definitly believe in enlightement.

It depends on what you mean by "ruling" in your second statement. It also depends on what you mean by "worlds", and "serfs". Because basically, I agree with all of these scriptural facts. However, I am more or less certain that I consider them diametrically opposed to yours.

I believe in the rule of the Empress - how could I not, she is in charge, not believing it would be denying a fact. And I fail to see what the Empress has to do with that.

Originally by: Honorius Vitellius
Originally by: Lyn Farel


Ah, here we comes to it at last. Merely your own interpretation of a text. It is written nowhere that slavery is the answer. Obedience and servitude ("As Holder rules Serf"), yes. But slavery ? No. Slavery is a tradition, not to be confounded with a scriptural fact. I still have yet to read any dogma about slavery in the core ideology.

Actually, your statement is inaccurate, not mine, and this is a fact. I am not denying you the right to have your own opinion and interpretation of the Scriptures, for that it is the core of every religion and a scientific fact for unique and different minds and personnal appreciations.


I think part of our disagreement is semantics. First, let us see if that is the case. Do we agree that as the Lord reveals in the scriptures, some human beings are subservient to others? Would we then agree that if the world is ordered in a chain of authority, originating in God, that it must terminate somewhere as well? Then what do we call this lowest social order of human beings who are in obedience to God?

If we do not agree on these basic premises, it is unfortunate. To reject the idea of a chain of authority originating in God is to reject the Amarr faith entirely, as well as its expression in the empire. If one embraces the idea of an ordered hierarchy, then one admits that there is a lowest point in that hierarchy.

Slavery is a scriptural reality, and the Lord calls us to submit to him. Our own logic and our own mercies must give way to his commands, all else is unimaginable arrogance. The text has been interpreted along the lines I have set out for millennia. I do not have the pride to claim that I have greater wisdom, insight, and divine inspiration than all the orthodox Amarrian theologians who have come before me. To do that, to claim that slavery depends on my own individual interpretation of the text rather than the will of the divinity as it is revealed in the scriptures, would be in truth the appalling personal interpretation, because the tradition since time immemorial has seen it there. It is not my personal reading.




I agree on your basic premises, as I have always done. They are the basic premises of the core books of the Scriptures. In the end it all depends on what you call "subservient" and how you call the lowest social positions.

But slavery is no scriptural reality. As I am not going to repeat what lord Medaneth said above, I shall humbly point you to his answer instead.

I however do think you might delusion yourself if you think that every Amarrian think the way you do (or vice versa). Look around yourself, and you will only see theological diversity, various discussions about Faith, and new ideas on the path to enlightement, all revolving around a single central purpose defined by the Scriptures themselves. Knowledge. This is what the Empire has always been at its roots.

Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.06.02 22:37:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Kazuma Ry
Originally by: Jason Galente

Slavery is not an 'old wound': it is still going on. There will be no peace between the Amarr and the Minmatar until the remaining Minmatar slaves are freed and reparations are paid. It is your own choice to cling onto your inhumane traditions for personal gain that prolongs this war. Do not delude yourself into believing otherwise.


Mr Galente,

If you think I choose to go down the road to help teach and enlighten others for personal gain, then you are sorely mistaken. If I wanted slaves for personal gain, then I would be in the employment of the Angel Cartel, or one of the other Pirate Factions.



While I cannot speak for you specifically, I have noticed many Amarreans disregarding their duties as holders, which has caused me to completely lose faith and trust in your scriptural 'right' to have slaves. But you miss the point. The war will not cease until the slaves are free. If you truly desire peace, you will swallow your pride and fervor.


Jesmine Kyriel
Amarr
House Kyriel Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.02 23:09:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Jason Galente
If you truly desire peace, you will swallow your pride and fervor.


Pilot; are you beholden to any nation or government?

If you are, consider the likelyhood that you will accept a demand from your enemies that, in order to have peace, you must stop being who you are, and abandon your ways entierly.

I allow myself to think you would be rather reluctant to the idea, at the least.

Ava Starfire
Minmatar
Teraa Matar
Posted - 2011.06.03 02:26:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Jesmine Kyriel
Originally by: Jason Galente
If you truly desire peace, you will swallow your pride and fervor.


Pilot; are you beholden to any nation or government?

If you are, consider the likelyhood that you will accept a demand from your enemies that, in order to have peace, you must stop being who you are, and abandon your ways entierly.

I allow myself to think you would be rather reluctant to the idea, at the least.


Oh, my god.... my Irony Meter just exploded into 17634174 pieces

Kentt Em'asep
Minmatar
Sec Det 125
Posted - 2011.06.03 07:20:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Ava Starfire
Originally by: Jesmine Kyriel
Originally by: Jason Galente
If you truly desire peace, you will swallow your pride and fervor.


Pilot; are you beholden to any nation or government?

If you are, consider the likelyhood that you will accept a demand from your enemies that, in order to have peace, you must stop being who you are, and abandon your ways entierly.

I allow myself to think you would be rather reluctant to the idea, at the least.


Oh, my god.... my Irony Meter just exploded into 17634174 pieces


That poor meter...

From what I have seen over the times the topic of a possible peace between our 2 nations would need in order to take place, I am at a loss. It seems that for one side to be happy, another would have to loose something. Which of course, is why the topic has not really moved from where it began for the past years. Talking has not really gotten nowhere... but the good thing is no one has really died from it really.

Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.06.03 10:57:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Kentt Em'asep
Originally by: Ava Starfire
Originally by: Jesmine Kyriel
Originally by: Jason Galente
If you truly desire peace, you will swallow your pride and fervor.


Pilot; are you beholden to any nation or government?

If you are, consider the likelyhood that you will accept a demand from your enemies that, in order to have peace, you must stop being who you are, and abandon your ways entierly.

I allow myself to think you would be rather reluctant to the idea, at the least.


Oh, my god.... my Irony Meter just exploded into 17634174 pieces


That poor meter...

From what I have seen over the times the topic of a possible peace between our 2 nations would need in order to take place, I am at a loss. It seems that for one side to be happy, another would have to loose something. Which of course, is why the topic has not really moved from where it began for the past years. Talking has not really gotten nowhere... but the good thing is no one has really died from it really.


What the hell are you talking about? People have died in this war.


Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.06.03 20:07:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Lyn Farel on 03/06/2011 20:07:49
Originally by: Jason Galente
Originally by: Kazuma Ry
Originally by: Jason Galente

Slavery is not an 'old wound': it is still going on. There will be no peace between the Amarr and the Minmatar until the remaining Minmatar slaves are freed and reparations are paid. It is your own choice to cling onto your inhumane traditions for personal gain that prolongs this war. Do not delude yourself into believing otherwise.


Mr Galente,

If you think I choose to go down the road to help teach and enlighten others for personal gain, then you are sorely mistaken. If I wanted slaves for personal gain, then I would be in the employment of the Angel Cartel, or one of the other Pirate Factions.



While I cannot speak for you specifically, I have noticed many Amarreans disregarding their duties as holders, which has caused me to completely lose faith and trust in your scriptural 'right' to have slaves. But you miss the point. The war will not cease until the slaves are free. If you truly desire peace, you will swallow your pride and fervor.




Oh yes, many Holders are deviants. I have also heard that many gallentean politicians and billionaires are, too. I may be wrong and must apologize if I really am, but this looks to me like a classic "pot-kettle" declaration.

Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.06.03 22:33:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel
Edited by: Lyn Farel on 03/06/2011 20:07:49
Originally by: Jason Galente
Originally by: Kazuma Ry
Originally by: Jason Galente

Slavery is not an 'old wound': it is still going on. There will be no peace between the Amarr and the Minmatar until the remaining Minmatar slaves are freed and reparations are paid. It is your own choice to cling onto your inhumane traditions for personal gain that prolongs this war. Do not delude yourself into believing otherwise.


Mr Galente,

If you think I choose to go down the road to help teach and enlighten others for personal gain, then you are sorely mistaken. If I wanted slaves for personal gain, then I would be in the employment of the Angel Cartel, or one of the other Pirate Factions.



While I cannot speak for you specifically, I have noticed many Amarreans disregarding their duties as holders, which has caused me to completely lose faith and trust in your scriptural 'right' to have slaves. But you miss the point. The war will not cease until the slaves are free. If you truly desire peace, you will swallow your pride and fervor.




Oh yes, many Holders are deviants. I have also heard that many gallentean politicians and billionaires are, too. I may be wrong and must apologize if I really am, but this looks to me like a classic "pot-kettle" declaration.


I believe you have misidentified me, dear. I am no politician nor billionaire. Just a budding philosopher and activist. Although I do appreciate the compliment Cool


Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.06.04 11:52:00 - [70]
 

What makes you think I described you as a politician, exactly ? I am sure that Gallente are not all politicians.

Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.06.04 16:24:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel
What makes you think I described you as a politician, exactly ? I am sure that Gallente are not all politicians.


Indeed not, dear. Many Gallenteans are political activists.

Kentt Em'asep
Minmatar
Sec Det 125
Posted - 2011.06.05 08:05:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Jason Galente
Originally by: Kentt Em'asep

That poor meter...

From what I have seen over the times the topic of a possible peace between our 2 nations would need in order to take place, I am at a loss. It seems that for one side to be happy, another would have to loose something. Which of course, is why the topic has not really moved from where it began for the past years. Talking has not really gotten nowhere... but the good thing is no one has really died from it really.


What the hell are you talking about? People have died in this war.




No ***t people have died in the war. That happens quite alot in wars. I apologize for the confusion though, I had meant within this debate.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.06.05 11:54:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Jason Galente
Originally by: Lyn Farel
What makes you think I described you as a politician, exactly ? I am sure that Gallente are not all politicians.


Indeed not, dear. Many Gallenteans are political activists.


So, what makes you think I described you as a billionaire or politician ? What does this has to do with my above statement ?

shykite127
Posted - 2011.06.19 18:54:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Ston Momaki
There is no true theology that exists to justify the wickedness of slavery.


You're making the assumption that slavery is automatically wicked. It isn't.


you're making the assumption slavery is automatically justifiable trough a few fancy words is it me or does the amarr have along way to go to truely become a space faring civilisation?

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.06.20 11:57:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: shykite127
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Ston Momaki
There is no true theology that exists to justify the wickedness of slavery.


You're making the assumption that slavery is automatically wicked. It isn't.


You're making the assumption slavery is automatically justifiable through a few fancy words; is it me, or do the Amarr have a long ways to go before truly becoming a space faring civilization?



Fixed your statement for you, correct with punctuation and capitalization: basic fundamentals for proper communication and education.

To answer your question: It's just you.

You're making a blanket statement about an entire people based on your own perception of that people's justification for a practice you clearly do not condone yourself. It would serve you well to first attempt to understand the varying justifications and reasons behind why some embrace slavery and others oppose it, and then make an educated distinction between both viewpoints before trying to make blatant insults toward an entire civilization.

Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation
Posted - 2011.06.20 13:14:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: shykite127
you're making the assumption slavery is automatically justifiable trough a few fancy words is it me or does the amarr have along way to go to truely become a space faring civilisation?



You're making the assumption that we have to justify it. We certainly don't, especially to you.

We (the majority of the billions of people who live in the Empire) belive it is an acceptable practice. If you don't like it...don't do it. It's our culture, not yours and we are not responsible for your fear, ignorance and bigotry.


N'maro Makari
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:57:00 - [77]
 

The enslavement of sentient beings is wholly unnaceptable, wether in occurs in the Empire, the Cartel, or the Nation.

Are these things the Empire really wants to be equated with? The Angels and Kuvakei's dreamland?

Free will is of the paramount importance. Therefore, it should be the choice of escaped and freed slaves wether they want to return. It is not anyones place to return them like lost property.

If you wish to continue to practice your enlightenment, you must accept that we have a right to our "ignorance", and the right to refuse your "love". I would say that educating those beneath you serves the purpose of enlightenment more so than slavery.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.06.24 11:42:00 - [78]
 

Free will is a delusion of mind.

N'maro Makari
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:16:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel
Free will is a delusion of mind.


Which excuses forced labour?

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:38:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel
Free will is a delusion of mind.


Knight Farel,

I am somewhat disappointed to hear a comment like this coming from you. If you do not believe in free will, what are you doing in a corporation that supports that ideal?

You certainly had the freedom of will to remark about how it is a delusion.

N'maro Makari
Posted - 2011.06.24 13:09:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Raze Valadeus
Originally by: Lyn Farel
Free will is a delusion of mind.


Knight Farel,

I am somewhat disappointed to hear a comment like this coming from you. If you do not believe in free will, what are you doing in a corporation that supports that ideal?

You certainly had the freedom of will to remark about how it is a delusion.


Raze, I think she may have been making a more philosophical point, but I shall wait for her reply.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.06.25 13:21:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Lyn Farel on 25/06/2011 13:21:20
Oh, more or less yes.

My apologies if I understood it as a more general statement.


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